Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

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jamespodesta
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Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by jamespodesta » October 18th, 2018, 3:26 am

So... Destiny Knight Dark Crypt...
Completely antimagic.

Monsters have around AC 23...

There doesn't seem to be much to increase your ToHit in this game in an anti-magic zone... other than maybe some song magic. Or just using monks.

most weapons are only +2 or +3 to hit, with +4 at best.

So basically you are talking +2 + Rand(16) attack (for anyone by Monks) making it impossible to hit anything in melee.

I've watched an Amiga playthrough where they use the exploit that monsters seem to ignore anti magic and cast, so a couple of Herbs in the party were able to kill things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l98jgFs ... _dL7vSGSkt

On a c64 playthrough, they basically just ran from every fight or use range combat (which uses spellSave maths so can actually hit fine)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp0rWZo ... 2&index=43


I think you don't notice much because you're really relying on AOE magic for most of the game...
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by ZiN » October 18th, 2018, 4:37 am

It's called the Grey Crypt, not Dark Crypt.

Breath weapons should be allowed. Not sure about instruments, are those allowed? Of course the safest bet is to run from everything there.

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by FraterKhaos » October 18th, 2018, 5:07 am

I am sure, bard songs were allowed as well as instruments and "breathing" of recruited monsters (e.g. dragons). Not allowed of course was every magic spell that is cast, which fizzled.

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by kaypy » October 18th, 2018, 7:34 am

Historically, 'breath' weapons such as horns, dragon shields, dragon wands work (a nice stack of the latter means your mages don't spend the whole trip twiddling their thumbs- that and SCSI worked in antimagic)

A bigger problem is healing- nothing but the bard tune, and no way at all of dealing with status ailments...

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by ybkara » October 18th, 2018, 9:11 am

With Melee march you could still hit - but that was only worth it at very low levels - get a Conjurer to 13, summon a bunch of slayers, play sanctuary score in Grey's crypt, and then switch to Melee march on the first round of combat - and so long as there were no flame masters, you were guaranteed to win some of the best gear in the game at very low level.

Flame horns on the bard, dragon wands on the mages and you could blast through quick enough for what was worth fighting.
All usable ranged weapons - Aram's knife and sword of Zar worked just fine as well, and cleared out single monsters quickly.

.. Or, thanks to the DOS version bugs - any item that cast a spell could be used in antimagic. Always bring a lightwand and staff of lor with you - basically unlimited lightspells and REST. Made the hand grenades and dynamite actually useful.

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by ZiN » October 18th, 2018, 10:11 am

ybkara wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:11 am
Or, thanks to the DOS version bugs - any item that cast a spell could be used in antimagic. Always bring a lightwand and staff of lor with you - basically unlimited lightspells and REST. Made the hand grenades and dynamite actually useful.
Not sure about whether magical items are supposed to be working or not. Musical instruments in particular should be a big help, if they are allowed, such as Flame/Frost Horn and Heal Harp.

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by ybkara » October 18th, 2018, 11:10 am

Yeah, pretty much all the versions behaved differently - so it's difficult to know what the intended behavior was. More work for Krome, I'm afraid.

Every version I played at least allowed breath attack items - flame horns, dragon wands, dragon shields to work in anti-magic, since you were not actually casting a spell. Thrown weapons worked fine too.

The remasters should be interesting with the automapper - but not a working compass (perhaps nospen ring can give stable mapping?) - and since traps seem much more deadly in the remaster - doing Grey's crypt without trzp should be interesting..

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by jamespodesta » October 18th, 2018, 10:20 pm

ZiN wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 4:37 am
It's called the Grey Crypt, not Dark Crypt.

Breath weapons should be allowed. Not sure about instruments, are those allowed? Of course the safest bet is to run from everything there.
Sorry. My typo. yes, the Grey Crypt... Now you've given away how to get in... ;)
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by jamespodesta » October 18th, 2018, 10:22 pm

kaypy wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 7:34 am
Historically, 'breath' weapons such as horns, dragon shields, dragon wands work (a nice stack of the latter means your mages don't spend the whole trip twiddling their thumbs- that and SCSI worked in antimagic)

A bigger problem is healing- nothing but the bard tune, and no way at all of dealing with status ailments...
yes, all the items still work.

just commenting that you really only notice how bad the melee ToHit is when you hit the Grey Crypt because you are relying on it a bit more.
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by jamespodesta » October 18th, 2018, 10:24 pm

ybkara wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 11:10 am
Yeah, pretty much all the versions behaved differently - so it's difficult to know what the intended behavior was. More work for Krome, I'm afraid.

Every version I played at least allowed breath attack items - flame horns, dragon wands, dragon shields to work in anti-magic, since you were not actually casting a spell. Thrown weapons worked fine too.

The remasters should be interesting with the automapper - but not a working compass (perhaps nospen ring can give stable mapping?) - and since traps seem much more deadly in the remaster - doing Grey's crypt without trzp should be interesting..
There is a zanduvar carrack for disarm traps - works on chests also - if you don't have a rogue. A highlevel rogue will auto-disarm traps now, so they are super-convenient to have in the party, though not as deadly/survivable as a monk or hunter.
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by ybkara » October 19th, 2018, 9:40 am

Ah.. that auto-disarm sounds like the perfect excuse to level a rogue, since they are needed in BT3 anyway. Good idea, thanks!

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by Midnight Angel » October 19th, 2018, 10:03 am

I recall my melee fighters being able to hit the monsters in the Grey Crypt just fine in the old version I played (read: C-64).

As far as I know, in the 8bit versions (and in the DOS version) the chance to hit a monster in melee was derived from the difference between attacker's and monster's AC.

Which, of course, made anything that lowers AC (Bard Song, INVI, etc) crazy powerful, and is not something that'd be advisable.

Leaving to-hit at 0 + weapon bonus + d16, however, will leave monsters pretty much un-hittable once their AC gets to the L0 to L+ levels (thats -11 to -22 in the current engine).

Hmm... maybe one could throw in a to-hit bonus based on level and class, akin to the way D&D operates?
Of course, the amount would have to be balanced with the levels the PCs are assumed to have in those areas...

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by jamespodesta » October 23rd, 2018, 5:57 pm

Midnight Angel wrote:
October 19th, 2018, 10:03 am
I recall my melee fighters being able to hit the monsters in the Grey Crypt just fine in the old version I played (read: C-64).

As far as I know, in the 8bit versions (and in the DOS version) the chance to hit a monster in melee was derived from the difference between attacker's and monster's AC.

Which, of course, made anything that lowers AC (Bard Song, INVI, etc) crazy powerful, and is not something that'd be advisable.

Leaving to-hit at 0 + weapon bonus + d16, however, will leave monsters pretty much un-hittable once their AC gets to the L0 to L+ levels (thats -11 to -22 in the current engine).

Hmm... maybe one could throw in a to-hit bonus based on level and class, akin to the way D&D operates?
Of course, the amount would have to be balanced with the levels the PCs are assumed to have in those areas...
Interesting. I've mainly reverse engineered the Amiga version, because the emulator has a good debugger.
The code we got from Old Skuul was mostly based off the Apple version, which is supposed to have been the same as the C64 code... And she had nothing but D16 + weapon toHit bonus + any spell/song bonus. But since weapon toHit pretty much caps at around +4, that doesn't give you much progression. Monsters get tougher and tougher but you are capped pretty early.
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by Midnight Angel » October 24th, 2018, 4:18 am

jamespodesta wrote:
October 23rd, 2018, 5:57 pm
Interesting. I've mainly reverse engineered the Amiga version, because the emulator has a good debugger.
The code we got from Old Skuul was mostly based off the Apple version, which is supposed to have been the same as the C64 code... And she had nothing but D16 + weapon toHit bonus + any spell/song bonus. But since weapon toHit pretty much caps at around +4, that doesn't give you much progression. Monsters get tougher and tougher but you are capped pretty early.
Huh? Did I mix up behaviors between DOS and C-64? *confused*



One other thing: please please please do not use the Amiga Version of BT3 as a basis.

It's quite buggy, special effects of monster attacks and special weapons do not work... and the graphics are way shoddier than those from C-64 or Apple...

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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by jamespodesta » October 24th, 2018, 4:26 am

yes, we found out during BT1 that the Amiga is probably the worst platform to base any decisions off.
We still use it for reverse engineering things that actually seem to be working ok, but when in doubt we consider the c64 version to be the "final word".

Also agree about the graphics. We've been basing (nearly) all BT3 uprezzes on the c64 art.
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by thebruce » October 24th, 2018, 6:33 am

jamespodesta wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 10:20 pm
ZiN wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 4:37 am
It's called the Grey Crypt, not Dark Crypt.

Breath weapons should be allowed. Not sure about instruments, are those allowed? Of course the safest bet is to run from everything there.
Sorry. My typo. yes, the Grey Crypt... Now you've given away how to get in... ;)
*snicker* I always thought that was one of the dumbest (intentionally dumb, btw) riddles in BT, a tiny hurdle :) Yeah, you might know its name at the beginning, but can you walk 3 steps without dying? No biggy. hehe
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by Drool » October 24th, 2018, 1:47 pm

jamespodesta wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 4:26 am
We've been basing (nearly) all BT3 uprezzes on the c64 art.
Excellent.
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Re: Melee fighters in the Dark Crypt...

Post by Spectralshade » October 27th, 2018, 9:54 am

jamespodesta wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 4:26 am

Also agree about the graphics. We've been basing (nearly) all BT3 uprezzes on the c64 art.
:o :mrgreen:

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