Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

For all discussion on all the previous Bard's Tale games: the classic 1980s games (Bard's Tale, II: Destiny Knight, & III: Thief of Fate) & the humorous Bard's Tale (2004) spin off.

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Kothyxaan
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 13th, 2018, 1:03 am

My Suggestions:

Go Back Option in combat - convenience (this one I see was already mentioned).

Same orders as last time - convenience.

Auto combat - Uses default powers (magic on off'able) Probably a no, too much work to introduce (understandable).

Rest option - Basically times goes faster (Doesn't need to be a sleep option as in set guards, random encounter chance, if caught anpping monsters get free attack etc) still the chance of encounters etc

Halberds attack from row 5 - 7 - makes sense, but not really urgent.

Attack retargetting - Kill all the enemy of a target group and still got people attacking that group, have them switch to another (random?) target in range.

A small text store - For example you can scroll up from the chest options to see what you id'd the trap as etc (I get click happy sometimes and miss it...)

Re-examine - A choice to re-examine a chest (see click happy bit above)

Rogues need some loving - As they are right now hardly anyone uses them (except for a special circumstance in game #3). Allow them to attack from any row (as in attack from character slot 5 - 7) this would increase their usefulness without being op. I mean what use are they in the front rank that some other class doesn't do better? In the rear rank their useless and don't use the "but they can identify items and disarm traps" because this can be done by a caster "but they save mana!", eh... mage staff anyone? Also if your careful mana doesnt really become too much of an issue with 3 casters.

Rogues Continued: If they hide while hidden their attack range increases by 10'. So after two succesful hides, they can attack anything up to 30' away (and they can carry on doing this until maximum range is attained).

Possessed/Crazy Party Members should be excluded from spell/song benefits (well they are now the enemy). lthough I don't think it would have helped the situation I was in where one of my characters was NUTS and he couldn't hit my other party members, and they couldn't hit him... endless combat cycle, how to fix that I wonder.

Kothyxaan
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 13th, 2018, 11:53 pm

Less a feature to be added more a slight change.

Quick Load and Quick Save keys are too close together I think. So easy to click quick load instead of quick save... or maybe I should pay more attention.

Rogues again: Increase disarm trap to 99%.

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Gizmo
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Gizmo » October 14th, 2018, 12:51 am

Kothyxaan wrote:
October 13th, 2018, 1:03 am
Attack retargetting - Kill all the enemy of a target group and still got people attacking that group, have them switch to another (random?) target in range.
This one I would not like to see in the game. The combat system is one of intent, and their intent is to attack a certain enemy. Though actions scroll by linearly on the page, the PCs are acting almost concurrently, and would be in mid action when another PC killed the foe. They would not have time and momentum to switch targets during the round—and they could not get player input as to what action to take anyway.

BT1-3 are phase based, where the combat —intentions— are decided before the round, and as the events play out... even the best laid plans can become either moot or impossible; those few seconds are lost to them.

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by gibble_fenwick » October 14th, 2018, 3:37 am

Kothyxaan wrote:
October 13th, 2018, 1:03 am
Rogues Continued: If they hide while hidden their attack range increases by 10'. So after two succesful hides, they can attack anything up to 30' away (and they can carry on doing this until maximum range is attained).
This is current behaviour. Unless I've misunderstood your suggestion?

Kothyxaan
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 14th, 2018, 7:01 am

gibble_fenwick wrote:
October 14th, 2018, 3:37 am
Kothyxaan wrote:
October 13th, 2018, 1:03 am
Rogues Continued: If they hide while hidden their attack range increases by 10'. So after two succesful hides, they can attack anything up to 30' away (and they can carry on doing this until maximum range is attained).
This is current behaviour. Unless I've misunderstood your suggestion?
Really? Srange I was sure I tested this (unless I'm getting it mixed up with testing to see if they could attack from slot 5 - 7). Looks like 'll need to test it again, cheers!

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Drool » October 14th, 2018, 11:29 am

gibble_fenwick wrote:
October 14th, 2018, 3:37 am
Kothyxaan wrote:
October 13th, 2018, 1:03 am
Rogues Continued: If they hide while hidden their attack range increases by 10'. So after two succesful hides, they can attack anything up to 30' away (and they can carry on doing this until maximum range is attained).
This is current behaviour. Unless I've misunderstood your suggestion?
That's how it worked in 3. I'm not sure how they coded it for non-Legacy 1 and 2.
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Kothyxaan
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 14th, 2018, 1:02 pm

@Drool & gibble_fenwick you are probably both right, from what I've been reading the ramke has taken the best features from each, and that sounds like a nice feature. I'm still gonna test though, im funny like that :p

Just checked, you guys are indeed correct.

Rogues again though:
After they make an attack from hidden they should be untaretable until the next round? I think that would make sense, since they just jumped out of the shadows.

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 15th, 2018, 4:17 am

More nice features (well I think so anyway)

1) Item Sorting for the shops.

2) More information on what an item does.

3) Increase inventory size (something you can buy from a shop).

Btw does anyone know if the 40 items limit means that no more items drop from encounters? I have hit the limit a couple of times, been in a few fights after and not found another item (could be bad rng though). If this is the case then another nice feature would be the choice of discarding items when you find another item.

4) Picture selection.

5) No restriction on the material to armour type (ie. Hunters can wear mithril scale, but not adamantine scale).

ybkara
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by ybkara » October 15th, 2018, 7:50 am

Would be nice to have the equipment shop show how many of an item they have in stock.. the basics are unlimited, but having a count for the available Flame Horns,etc.. would be a nice convenience.

see
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by see » October 15th, 2018, 9:24 am

Kothyxaan wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 4:17 am
Btw does anyone know if the 40 items limit means that no more items drop from encounters?
Yes it does, just like in the originals if none of your characters had an inventory slot.

Kothyxaan
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 15th, 2018, 12:41 pm

@see Thanks, it' been a while since I played the old version :)

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Kothyxaan » October 26th, 2018, 1:00 am

1) Identified Items tell you exactly what they do (unless there is a specific reason why they wouldn't)

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by kaiman » October 30th, 2018, 11:10 am

Kothyxaan wrote:
October 26th, 2018, 1:00 am
1) Identified Items tell you exactly what they do (unless there is a specific reason why they wouldn't)
Bit late to the party, but now that I'm getting some of the more exotic loot drops, I sometimes wish for exactly that. Some of the items are fairly straightforward, others not so much. Sure, I could likely google what they do (or try them out), but I'd find it more convenient to see a short description in the game where appropriate.

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Spectralshade » October 30th, 2018, 12:17 pm

kaiman wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 11:10 am
Kothyxaan wrote:
October 26th, 2018, 1:00 am
1) Identified Items tell you exactly what they do (unless there is a specific reason why they wouldn't)
Bit late to the party, but now that I'm getting some of the more exotic loot drops, I sometimes wish for exactly that. Some of the items are fairly straightforward, others not so much. Sure, I could likely google what they do (or try them out), but I'd find it more convenient to see a short description in the game where appropriate.
I have to agree with this. especially with the change to charges so we can't recharge items easily, I am not going to run around just wasting charges in the hope of noticing what happened. So I'm using google every time I get something new, which really shouldn't be the case :-/

Milamber33
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Milamber33 » November 1st, 2018, 7:52 am

Gizmo wrote:
October 14th, 2018, 12:51 am
Kothyxaan wrote:
October 13th, 2018, 1:03 am
Attack retargetting - Kill all the enemy of a target group and still got people attacking that group, have them switch to another (random?) target in range.
This one I would not like to see in the game. The combat system is one of intent, and their intent is to attack a certain enemy. Though actions scroll by linearly on the page, the PCs are acting almost concurrently, and would be in mid action when another PC killed the foe. They would not have time and momentum to switch targets during the round—and they could not get player input as to what action to take anyway.

BT1-3 are phase based, where the combat —intentions— are decided before the round, and as the events play out... even the best laid plans can become either moot or impossible; those few seconds are lost to them.
Sorry, but I can 100% refute your logic here with examples from the games themselves. The key is to look at how monsters and enemies work. When you do, you will notice that summons and other party monsters NEVER miss their turn, even if the rest of your characters wipe out the enemy group they WOULD HAVE been targeting. Example: One lone enemy in melee range, another whole group at a distance and thus out of range. Logically, a melee based summon would target the close enemy with 100% certainty. Yet if you run that scenario and one of your other party members kills the close enemy and the next group advances, your summon WILL hit someone from that second group. Guaranteed. Likewise, when enemies manage to kill one of your party, you NEVER see an enemy miss their turn because they were targeting a now dead character, they WILL target someone still alive and act. Guaranteed.

Another point of proof, when you're at a distance from spellcasting enemies, they will only cast spells. If you stop 20' away from them when you could advance, they will still only cast spells. If you advance to within melee range, they will also start to melee you. On the turn you advance. I'm guessing behind the scenes what's going on is the NPCs only have their actions decided by the computer when they actually go to act, which makes a certain amount of sense from a programming point of view but does make for a big disparity in capabilities between PCs and NPCs.

I get what you're saying about the whole intent and phase thing, but either the computer controlled characters should be nerfed to be capable of missing turns like player characters, or the player characters should be able to benefit from the same auto-retargeting the computer benefits from.

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Gizmo » November 1st, 2018, 10:53 am

Milamber33 wrote:
November 1st, 2018, 7:52 am
I get what you're saying about the whole intent and phase thing, but either the computer controlled characters should be nerfed to be capable of missing turns like player characters, or the player characters should be able to benefit from the same auto-retargeting the computer benefits from.
It seems like an AI double standard to me, probably for simplicity sake.

I remember that Warcraft had an evil eye spell, that revealed the map through the fog-of-war, and the enemy shamans would often cast that spell—except that the AI didn't use it; it knew the locations of every unit on the map, 100% of the time. The casting was a show for the player's benefit.

In the BT games, the party members can cast spells that fizzle for lack of spell points, and they can (be setup to) attack opponents that get killed before they can act against them. If visualized, this is like preparing to attack a target who dies or disappears before you can land the hit.

The easiest parallel would be to imagine a HtH jump kick and someone shoots the target [dead] while the jumper is in the air, but this works for swinging an axe just as well. The game is abstract enough that distances are not —and cannot be— exact... No one is exactly 10' away from each party member, and I'd say that a step or two (or three) might be required to change targets mid swing; though less a problem for ranged weapons... It's just another (less common) kind of 'miss'.

Retargeting (for the player) could come in two styles; either automatically—and strip away user control, or manually. At some point, if automatic, they might have saved a party member if they could have chosen the target. Manually means pausing the combat round to select what is inevitably the most advantageous target... and they'd get to do this with full knowledge of which enemies are left, who among them turned out to be the most dangerous, and they'd have the current status, and hitpoints of their party members to influence their mid-round choice.

I don't like either option.

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Milamber33 » November 1st, 2018, 11:16 am

Gizmo wrote:
November 1st, 2018, 10:53 am
Retargeting (for the player) could come in two styles. Either automatically—and strip away user control...where at some point they might have saved a party member if they could have chosen the target, or manually—and stopping the combat round to select what is inevitably the most advantageous target... and they'd get to do this with full knowledge of who of the enemies was left, which turned out to be the most dangerous, and the current status and hitpoints of all of their party members. I don't like either option.
I get what you're saying there. If we're going to disrupt the combat round by asking for a new target, we might as well switch to only asking for the action when the character is ready to act to begin with, but that would be a completely different style of combat. I'm not against that style in general, but it would be wrong to switch Bard's tale to it, it wouldn't be the same game any more. As for auto retargeting... :/ Personally, I would prefer that to no action being taken on this matter, but I also don't like the reduction of player control.

I actually think the best solution would be to make all the NPCs 'select' actions at the beginning of the round, just like the PCs do. In fact, I would have them do so BEFORE the player chooses their actions (so they have to be committed before finding out if the party will advance), and then they have to live with the results of those actions, just like the player does. This would put PC and NPC actions on the same level at least, and just like the player can coordinate the actions of the whole party, there wouldn't be anything wrong with the AI coordinating the actions of the enemy groups.

If things do go this route though, I'd suggest that either party NPCs show their planned action somehow or they decide their action after the PC actions are confirmed. They may be acting on their own, but they would be privy to any party strategising and directions.

I know this is a pretty major balance change and would likely need to be offset by buffs to enemy hit chances or something, but I also feel that it would make it more authentic to have NPCs following the same combat rules as PCs.

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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by thebruce » November 1st, 2018, 11:22 am

An interest mechanic during action selection for melee attack would be having the option to choose a secondary target.
There are three options when a target enemy is killed:
1) Do nothing - character misses (classics)
2) Choose new random in-range target
3) Attempt an attack on the secondary target (return to step 1 for the attack; I wouldn't recommend going 3 or more deep though :P)

I wouldn't mind having some control over what happens when a character misses. That to me would be one change more in line with a sequel-update than the dramatic change to combat we have in BT4.
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by Drool » November 1st, 2018, 11:51 am

Eh. I always viewed it as part of the strategy.

Almost as if AAAAHDD wasn't the way to go in touch fights.
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Re: Features you wish The Bards Tale Trilogy had

Post by ad1066 » November 1st, 2018, 1:18 pm

I can't remember the way the original Wasteland handled it, if PCs that were set to attack an enemy that was killed before their turn came up ended up firing shots that just automatically missed, or if the PC ended up doing nothing.

I do remember Fountain of Dreams specifically included a message "[character] manages to hold back", so if they were set to attack a target that went away, at least they weren't wasting ammo.

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