The Bard's Tale Trilogy - Bugs or Not Bugs?

[thebruce]

PHDO should never put a persistent change on the map as it's always a single-move temporary change. I think it's just an effect of the manner in which the automap is recorded. Should be (auto map -> phdo -> render view) rather than (phdo -> automap / render view)

I believe he is correct in that the only way to get a completionist map of some dungeons is to use APAR instead of Phase Door.
the AutoMapper was designed to represent only what the player can see, but in the case of phase door, even though the player can never truly see that the wall is visible again from the original tile, he knows it because he knows how the spell works.

RIght but I think it can be confusing if people rely no the automap, if after using PHDO the wall remain non-existence on the map. It would be very easy to forget that there is actually a wall there. If you've already hand-mapped it's not an issue because you'd have to manually erase the wall. The automapper shouldn't remove a mapped wall after using PHDO which is a temporary alteration. That's all I'm saying :)

[Drool]

From the C64 version of BT3:


The automap is a little blurry, but the party is facing east, and I've just cast PHDO on the wall there, which is why the corridor continues. But, on the map, you can see that the wall is still there; the automap doesn't remove the phased wall. Probably because as soon as you do anything (including accidentally turning), the wall will come back. I agree that the map shouldn't update for that change.

Now WAWA is a trickier situation, because the wall stays gone until you leave the map.

[jamespodesta]

PHDO should never put a persistent change on the map as it's always a single-move temporary change. I think it's just an effect of the manner in which the automap is recorded. Should be (auto map -> phdo -> render view) rather than (phdo -> automap / render view)

I believe he is correct in that the only way to get a completionist map of some dungeons is to use APAR instead of Phase Door.
the AutoMapper was designed to represent only what the player can see, but in the case of phase door, even though the player can never truly see that the wall is visible again from the original tile, he knows it because he knows how the spell works.

RIght but I think it can be confusing if people rely no the automap, if after using PHDO the wall remain non-existence on the map. It would be very easy to forget that there is actually a wall there. If you've already hand-mapped it's not an issue because you'd have to manually erase the wall. The automapper shouldn't remove a mapped wall after using PHDO which is a temporary alteration. That's all I'm saying

there's also another issue of walls that change via map events - especially big cases like the Destiny Stone snares, but much smaller examples of it are around the place and they are all temporary until you leave the map...

[thebruce]

there's also another issue of walls that change via map events - especially big cases like the Destiny Stone snares, but much smaller examples of it are around the place and they are all temporary until you leave the map...

In my mappin if it was part of the map itself, I noted the function. Special walls, doors and such. If it's something I did to the map, especially if temporary, then it's not part of the dungeon level.
I never really noted where PHDO didn't work, but I would if I'd made extra efforts to determine that. Otherwise, ya, I only noted native map content, including dynamic native map content.

[Milamber33]

Just found a bug in BT1 near Kylearan's Tower, specifically regarding the house at N28 E25. First off, every other gate has stone walls both sides of it, so why is this a house at all? Second, the door to the house faces the gate. You can actually enter the house by moving to the gate square and turning towards it, but on exiting, if you don't have the key you get the message about standing before the gate to Kylearan's Tower, after which it puts you back in the square of the house, having pushed you back a square as it always does when you can't open a gate. The funny thing is, it doesn't actually put you back *inside* the house, just in the *square* of the house. The graphical results of this are... interesting. Fortunately, you can turn any direction you like and move forward to escape this.

[redwinclass]

At least this house can be explored.

There are two houses which are the stuff of completionists' nightmares: N29-E25 and N15-E29. Those "unexplored houses"!!!

[Milamber33]

Another bug, when you have a summon with both a melee attack and a breath/spell attack and you move them further back in your party to try and force them to exclusively use their breath/spell attack, it doesn't work. Instead, unless the RNG decides it's time to use the breath/spell attack they will just take no action at all. Specifically tested with demons summoned with PRSU and GRSU, but I expect the problem is universal.

[redwinclass]

** Sound effect **
BT1 (and 2?) when enemies like Jabberwocks or Soul Suckers breathe at the party and a member is hit, the sound effect is that of a physical blow.

[jamespodesta]

there's also another issue of walls that change via map events - especially big cases like the Destiny Stone snares, but much smaller examples of it are around the place and they are all temporary until you leave the map...

In my mappin if it was part of the map itself, I noted the function. Special walls, doors and such. If it's something I did to the map, especially if temporary, then it's not part of the dungeon level.
I never really noted where PHDO didn't work, but I would if I'd made extra efforts to determine that. Otherwise, ya, I only noted native map content, including dynamic native map content.

obvious example would be sitting on the throne with the bard, to create the door... if the minimap/journal doesn't show the door then that level is confusing to navigate until you leave it..

[thebruce]

Yeah I'd consider that dynamic native content. In that case the change is flagged is map data (dynamic, but not user-altered) and the automap would show the current state of the map data. But using PHDO on a wall is a user-altered map data. Or in mapping terms, I'd mark the special door as showing with a bard action (same idea as hidden doors only visible with higher magic light) on my map, but I wouldn't mark on my map that a wall no longer exists because I cast PHDO, until I return to see that the wall is back.

If I were keeping track of my journey, I might mark that I *used* PHDO at that spot, but I wouldn't mark the map wall structure as having changed. (but I don't keep mapping logs to that degree :P)

To me, that translates to the automap only recording map-native data (static and dynamic) once discovered, but not user-initiated custom alterations to the map, especially temporary.

[kaypy]

Wouldnt the simpler approach just to be to give PhDo and WaWa an expiry hook that updates the map with correct data when the spell expires?

I assume PhDo especially needs to know where the spell is, when it expires, and what the correct terrain is to return the actual world to normal. (Hmm. I wonder what happens if you use PhDo on the bard-on-the-throne door? Does it return to a door or a wall? edit: it restores the door, so it must be storing something somewhere)

(WaWa might be a little more difficult, as you can multiples of the spell running, and I assume the normal correction routine is to reload the map when you return).

[Zadkiel]

So I just finished the game, and it was really noticable how many spelling and grammar mistakes there were in the final stages of the game. All through the final snare, the temple of Narn and the final fight and ending text, mistakes everywhere. I didn't make a list of them all, but you should be able to go through the above.

[KSS]

I notice 2 things (v1.08):
- The Melee Men monsters never seem to advance (which is kinda ironic...).
- The angel picture when the whole party is eradicated doesn't seem to have been enhanced; is it deliberate ?

[Milamber33]

Noticed something wandering around Mangar's Tower level 3, if there's a trap on the same square as an antimagic field, then your levitation spell can still save you from triggering the trap, even though it's being dispelled at the same time. So clearly antimagic is not being applied until after the trap check is being done, this should be swapped.

Also, not a bug as such, but the keymaster is still asking which party member wants to buy the key, even though both money and inventory are now pooled. This question seems pointless outside of legacy mode.

[G1Countdown]

Lets say there are 3 enemy groups in melee range and I melee attack group number 1. If I recall correctly in BT2 on the commodore, once I finished off group 1 my remaining melee fighters would automatically attack the next group if their chosen enemy group had already died (and if my characters turn in that round had yet to come to pass).

[Drool]

I can't speak for 2, but that is not how it works in 3. If the group you attacked dies first, you do nothing.

However...

Say you're fighting some Goblins and Mage who is 50' away and he summons a Wolf. This gives you:

A) Wolf 10'
B) 10 Goblin 10'
B) Mage 50'

If combat resolves in the right order, you can kill the wolf, have the mage summon another, and then have the rest of your people kill the new wolf. If everyone attacks the wolf, they won't move on to the goblins.

[G1Countdown]

Maybe I'm misremembering. Its been years since I played, so its possible.

[ZZGO]

I can't speak for 2, but that is not how it works in 3. If the group you attacked dies first, you do nothing.

However...

Say you're fighting some Goblins and Mage who is 50' away and he summons a Wolf. This gives you:

A) Wolf 10'
B) 10 Goblin 10'
B) Mage 50'

If combat resolves in the right order, you can kill the wolf, have the mage summon another, and then have the rest of your people kill the new wolf. If everyone attacks the wolf, they won't move on to the goblins.

That's not how I seem to remember it.
Newly summoned monsters always form a new monster group with exactly 1 monster. In your example above, even if you had three fighters attack group A there's only 1 Wolf there. If another one is summoned it would become group D which you cannot pre-emptively order attacks against.

[Drool]

I've been playing a lot of 3 lately, and, at least on the C64 version, if the wolf in A is killed before the summon, the newly summoned Wolf would become A and be able to be attacked.

[Milamber33]

I've been playing a lot of 3 lately, and, at least on the C64 version, if the wolf in A is killed before the summon, the newly summoned Wolf would become A and be able to be attacked.

I can remember enough of previous playthroughs to confirm this is the case for the DOS games as well, not just 3 but definitely 2 and probably 1.