Really dislike the combat system

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CaptainPatch
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Really dislike the combat system

Post by CaptainPatch » September 20th, 2018, 8:31 pm

EVERY combat feels like a hand-to-hand melee. Almost makes using bows worthless. (Except that you need them to hit a target three squares away) No long range sniping allowed. No opening combat with an arrow coming out of nowhere. No shielding weaker characters by putting a good distance from the fray. Then even Fighters can't close with enemies in their rear ranks because they can't advance past the second row.

4 x 4 really is too small of a battlefield.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Woolfe » September 20th, 2018, 11:17 pm

Welcome back Cap :-)
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by CaptainPatch » September 21st, 2018, 12:44 am

Hey, Woolfe! Been awhile. How you liking BT4? Besides performance issues, I'm disliking the combat system (as mentioned above) and I'm getting increasing annoyed with the puzzles which are "Solve 'em or go home." No bypasses for most of them. Interesting story though and some of the intra-party chatter is good for some belly laughs.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Woolfe » September 21st, 2018, 6:31 am

I'm actually holding off until the first major patch.... :-D

And I didn't play the beta.. .so no idea honestly :-)
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Marxorz » September 21st, 2018, 8:48 am

I guess it's a matter of taste, but the combat system might be my favorite thing about the game so far. :) To me it feels like a board game or even a puzzle in and of itself. Now that I've gotten the hang of it I can usually beat orange difficulty enemies and I've even beaten a red one (though that did take a second try and some adjustments to the skills I had equipped). It's an interesting interpretation of the combat rows in the earlier Bard's Tale game.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by rmcoen » September 21st, 2018, 10:44 am

It's... an acquired taste. I don't like that some frontline melee skills can't hit "nearby" foes. That forces a Move, which costs an opportunity. I don't have enough grasp of the foes' limitations to know when I'm effectively costing *them* an opportunity -- will pushing them back matter, for example?

I agree on the puzzle aspect. Flaw or design choice, I definitely have doubled up specific patterns of play... the Rogue goes, the Rogue goes, the Rogue goes, bard/mage/fighter takes an appropriate turn (usually 2, because 3 Rogue actions have killed something, triggering a Trow bonus). Round 2, the fighter moves a target via taunt, the rogue goes, the bard or mage goes, the rogue kills again (bonus action), the fighter goes, the mage finishes off enemies with Arcane Barrage. Rogue gets all increases to STR that I can give him, because he takes 50-75% of the actions in the party!

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Telstar » September 21st, 2018, 1:40 pm

I like it instead, but what annoys me is the TOTAL AP available no matter if you have 2 or 4 members and are not enough at combat start. Plain dumb.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by CaptainPatch » September 22nd, 2018, 3:37 am

I'm really put off by the Party AP approach as well. It seems like if I have two characters or four, I'm still only getting the same number of actions -- which is illogical. Can you imagine a shield wall in action, where ONLY the first two guys get to attack their opponents -- while the rest of the line just idly stands rooted to be stationary targets? NO WAY! Every person in the line is busy attacking and defending, simultaneously.

Whoever came up with this 4 x 4 battlefield, set number of AP for the entire party approach should be sent back to design school. (And if it was one of the old hands from the Interplay days, shame on you! "Uniquely Different" DOES NOT equate to "Better".)
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Fargol » September 22nd, 2018, 5:00 am

Agree with all criticisms of the combat system. It's what ultimately convinced me to refund from Steam, though I liked virtually every other aspect of the game (well, minus the performance hitches). The puzzles will frustrate me (I'm really bad at them) but I take comfort I can find solutions on the interweb. I'll likely give it another shot down the road, either when they revamp the combat system (seems highly unlikely though) or it gets discounted.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Telstar » September 22nd, 2018, 5:50 am

CaptainPatch wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:37 am
I'm really put off by the Party AP approach as well. It seems like if I have two characters or four, I'm still only getting the same number of actions -- which is illogical. Can you imagine a shield wall in action, where ONLY the first two guys get to attack their opponents -- while the rest of the line just idly stands rooted to be stationary targets? NO WAY! Every person in the line is busy attacking and defending, simultaneously.

Whoever came up with this 4 x 4 battlefield, set number of AP for the entire party approach should be sent back to design school. (And if it was one of the old hands from the Interplay days, shame on you! "Uniquely Different" DOES NOT equate to "Better".)
Exactly my feelings. If they fix that, it will be good for me.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » September 22nd, 2018, 6:31 am

Telstar wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:50 am
CaptainPatch wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:37 am
I'm really put off by the Party AP approach as well. It seems like if I have two characters or four, I'm still only getting the same number of actions -- which is illogical. Can you imagine a shield wall in action, where ONLY the first two guys get to attack their opponents -- while the rest of the line just idly stands rooted to be stationary targets? NO WAY! Every person in the line is busy attacking and defending, simultaneously.

Whoever came up with this 4 x 4 battlefield, set number of AP for the entire party approach should be sent back to design school. (And if it was one of the old hands from the Interplay days, shame on you! "Uniquely Different" DOES NOT equate to "Better".)
Exactly my feelings. If they fix that, it will be good for me.
And how exactly do you think they are going to "fix that"? I'm afraid it will never be good for you.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Spectralshade » September 22nd, 2018, 9:26 am

CaptainPatch wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:37 am
I'm really put off by the Party AP approach as well. It seems like if I have two characters or four, I'm still only getting the same number of actions -- which is illogical. Can you imagine a shield wall in action, where ONLY the first two guys get to attack their opponents -- while the rest of the line just idly stands rooted to be stationary targets? NO WAY! Every person in the line is busy attacking and defending, simultaneously.

Whoever came up with this 4 x 4 battlefield, set number of AP for the entire party approach should be sent back to design school. (And if it was one of the old hands from the Interplay days, shame on you! "Uniquely Different" DOES NOT equate to "Better".)
combat is inspired by hearthstone. That's why it's like it is.

Instead of looking at combat from the trilogy and how to imprive that, they looked at a cardgame dna tried to convert that into a semi-faux of combat.
Sure, they could make a game with combat like that, but then it should be marketed as the 'gimmick' the game should be sold on and not something you slide into a numbered sequel of a series that already had an established series with game mechanics.
What's even more ironic, is that games like "guild of dungeoneering" and "Card hunter" already used cardgame mechanics in 'dungeon/combat' use, and were accepted on it specifically because they made it the actual gimmick of the game. So people going into those games knew that they were looking at cardgame mockeries of combat.

The fact that they slipped a model like this into a game called "4" of a series shows, to me, a total lack of market awareness.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Spectralshade » September 22nd, 2018, 9:30 am

ZiN wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 6:31 am
Telstar wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:50 am
CaptainPatch wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:37 am
I'm really put off by the Party AP approach as well. It seems like if I have two characters or four, I'm still only getting the same number of actions -- which is illogical. Can you imagine a shield wall in action, where ONLY the first two guys get to attack their opponents -- while the rest of the line just idly stands rooted to be stationary targets? NO WAY! Every person in the line is busy attacking and defending, simultaneously.

Whoever came up with this 4 x 4 battlefield, set number of AP for the entire party approach should be sent back to design school. (And if it was one of the old hands from the Interplay days, shame on you! "Uniquely Different" DOES NOT equate to "Better".)
Exactly my feelings. If they fix that, it will be good for me.
And how exactly do you think they are going to "fix that"? I'm afraid it will never be good for you.
It could actually be fixed, with a "little" tinkering. I got some thoughts and you could actually convert it into a workable solution that would feel like it had heritage to the trilogy. But it would require major changes in other parts of the game. Notable masteries would need to go, attributes would need to be overhauled completely as would the leveling system and equipment system. But you COULD create a combat engine with the grid squares that would feel closer to the trilogy, if you wanted. But the work required in changing the other areas to be able to follow up on it would mean alot of development time and rebalancing of skills, equipment, classes, monsters.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » September 22nd, 2018, 9:49 am

Spectralshade wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 9:30 am
It could actually be fixed, with a "little" tinkering. I got some thoughts and you could actually convert it into a workable solution that would feel like it had heritage to the trilogy. But it would require major changes in other parts of the game. Notable masteries would need to go, attributes would need to be overhauled completely as would the leveling system and equipment system. But you COULD create a combat engine with the grid squares that would feel closer to the trilogy, if you wanted. But the work required in changing the other areas to be able to follow up on it would mean alot of development time and rebalancing of skills, equipment, classes, monsters.
Yeah, all of that, with InXile's and who knows how many sub-contractor's code, which is already bugged enough as it is. In theory, yes, it could be "fixed", but starting from scratch would be more efficient at this point. We will see in a year or two, when the game is actually out of beta eg. "Director's Cut" or such.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Omelet79 » September 22nd, 2018, 11:21 am

Do you really think the old system was that good? I think sometimes nostalgia gets in the way of how a game actually played. 99% of the encounters in the original game were 4 attacks, hide in shadows, and MIBL, WIFI or whatever group / all foes spell you wanted to cast.

In all of these posts I still haven't seen many actual concrete suggestions as to how to accomplish this utopia state everyone seems to be expecting.

If they had put the old combat method with new graphics, groups of foes at different distances, each character gets an attack at some random time in combat (Heroes of Might and Magic basically) everyone would complain twice as much.

My only complaint is a lack of variety in the skills and a lack of focus in the skill trees. More skills and making the build paths more clear would help with the variety.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by rmcoen » September 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am

Combat in Wizardry: Attack, Attack, Attack, PArry, PArry, PArry. (Occasionally cast a spell.)
Combat in BT1 (recently played remastered): Attack, Attack, Attack, Fire Horn, Defend, Defend, Defend. (by end of game: MIBL, MIBL, MIBL.)

Combat in BT4: Firehorn, charged bolt, taunt, shiv, arrow, BONUS!, chop, Chug, Sanctuary Score. And then Round 2: shiv, sweep, arrow, BONUS! chop, arcane barrage, arcane barrage, Execute. Sanctuary Score again, if foes remain.

I'm sorry, why do I want BT4 combat more like BT1?

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by thebruce » September 22nd, 2018, 12:31 pm

The combat was a different concept entirely. It wasn't about the detail, it wasn't about the options. It was about using what you had, it was about quick and many, not strategic and few. It's not that one is "old" and "outdated", it's that they're different fundamentally. There are people who understand this, and there are people who tie that game mechanic to only the "old" classic games.

But... as usual, all of this was discussed ad nauseum over the last couple years, with many many suggestions on how to adjust the combat system (both hopes, and practical alterations) to "feel" more like the original trilogy and less like the card-style Hearthstone/etc mechanic. This is not a new subject.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » September 22nd, 2018, 1:08 pm

Omelet79 wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 11:21 am
99% of the encounters in the original game were 4 attacks, hide in shadows, and MIBL, WIFI or whatever group / all foes spell you wanted to cast.
That's not always efficient. First things first, you determine whether it's worth to fight, or run. Then you dispose of the opponents in the most efficient way. There are plenty of times when STTO, DEST, DRBR, or SPTO should be used instead of MIBL. That's BT1. In BT2 and especially BT3 AoEing everything won't work and you will needlessly drain your precious SPs.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Drool » September 22nd, 2018, 2:11 pm

Just fill your party with Trow and you'll break the combat mechanics over your knee and have more AP than you know what to do with.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » September 22nd, 2018, 2:36 pm

Drool wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 2:11 pm
Just fill your party with Trow and you'll break the combat mechanics over your knee and have more AP than you know what to do with.
Haha, indeed. But micromanaging 6 trows might turn out to be a headache, since they all look the same (especially from behind) so you need to click around a lot to know who's who.

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