Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

For all Bard's Tale IV discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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ZiN
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by ZiN » September 27th, 2018, 3:08 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:58 am
  • How can we improve the graphics while keeping the grid based feel?
    How can we expand the existing classes to make them more interesting (e.g. Paladin spells, Rogue poisons, Prestige classes)
    How can we improve the UI (clue: not the current inventory system)
    How can we make random encounters more interesting (add damage resistances, special abilities, group synergies, rare random 'bosses')
    How can we add new and rewarding systems (such as the clever way Etrian rewards rare crafting materials if you kill enemies a certain way)
    How can we improve the summoning/binding system to make summons as useful as party members (evolution of spell bind)
    How can we introduce side quests and a sense of overarching narrative without damaging the core gameplay (fast moving combat and exploration)
There were lots of good ideas and suggestions, provided by enthusiastic backers and fans, such as ourselves, that could have helped to come up with answers to these questions in the early stages of development.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Gizmo » September 27th, 2018, 3:09 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:58 am
30 years of game development in the sense of Bards Tale should have meant:
  • How can we improve the graphics while keeping the grid based feel?
    How can we expand the existing classes to make them more interesting (e.g. Paladin spells, Rogue poisons, Prestige classes)
    How can we improve the UI (clue: not the current inventory system)
    How can we make random encounters more interesting (add damage resistances, special abilities, group synergies, rare random 'bosses')
    How can we add new and rewarding systems (such as the clever way Etrian rewards rare crafting materials if you kill enemies a certain way)
    How can we improve the summoning/binding system to make summons as useful as party members (e.g. find and bind a specific monster that has a resistance or spell that's particularly useful in major encounter)
    How can we introduce side quests and a sense of overarching narrative without damaging the core gameplay (fast moving combat and exploration)
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Absolutely.
eisberg wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:48 am
Your link you provided is a link about different typess of Turn Base, phase base being a type of Turn base.
The characteristics are very different, yet you validate solely because they are both seen as "turn based". That's like equating fish with different fish—"well they are both fish!"; there is a difference between a red fish and a redfish—especially if you are paying for it.
The other FPS dungeon crawlers are not set in the same world, therefore they are not sequels.
That's irrelevant; the new BT doesn't seem to be set in the same world either. Is it Skara Brea? Well Ultima VII has one too.
Not really sure how an analogy with food really helps here.
Only if taken literally; its point is in the abstract.
Game design has gone through evolutions for the last 30 years, many things learned through 30 years of progress, anchovies haven't evolved in our life time.
That's what I mean by interpreting it literally. Anchovies are not expected to gain your attention—much less be mentioned in a reply. The point is the situation of it; the minutia could have been anything.
I still disagree, the essence of Bard's Tale is Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world. I didn't confuse anything.
Those are the abstract bullet points of a description—not how the the games play; you can have many games that meet the bullet points, and do not bear any relation the Bard's Tale. You could have included EGA graphics in that list, and it yes... there are many games (including the BT series) that did indeed feature EGA graphics—but so what? A game (even the new BT game) can meet all of these attributes, and still be like or unlike the Bard's Tale series. Thunderscape** comes to mind; (it's phase based too ;) ).

**Loud audio; mind your speaker volume.

Thunderscape doesn't play like BT, but given the choice (of not basing it on Bard's Tale), basing a BT sequel on Thunderscape doesn't seem so bad as basing it on Hearthstone or other. [IMO]

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Spectralshade » September 27th, 2018, 3:44 am

eisberg wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:48 am
Gizmo wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 1:55 am
eisberg wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 7:56 pm
Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world.
Puzzles? Turn Based? The originals were not turn based; the new one is. There plenty of first person dungeon crawlers, many of them with puzzles; that doesn't make them Bard's Tale.
Does it really seem to be the same world to you? I've seen many posts about how it does not seem to be the same world at all. :?
Fans of the games are fans of the games, being fan of the mechanics vs being fan of what the over all games are (Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world) are still both fans of the games. There are fans, like me who wanted that Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world but without many things that are not good game design, in our opinion, anymore.
Not good game design huh? In whose opinion? We can easily liken this to the flavor of foods—not a good taste, say some. But that [flavor] is what one should be expect if the product uses the same name. If I see anchovy ice cream on the menu, I should not expect it to taste like anything but... It should not taste like cherry liquorice—regardless if that flavor had become more popular. You buy Bard's Tale to get Bard's Tale; not Hearthstone or Frayed Knights.

If you order (and pre-pay for) Vegemite... Nutella is not an acceptable substitute to be sent in its place...
even if it may look the same to the casual observer; or the person who just wants a bread spread.
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It's an acquired taste, and you search it out by name.
_______

I don't think they originally intended it as a Bait & Switch... but that's what this feels like.
And I disagree with your last sentence, a sequel is more about keeping to what it is in essence, again Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world, and not the specific mechanics.
Then you've disagreed by agreeing; a sequel is indeed more about keeping to what it is in essence, but you've confused "in essence" with 'in abstract'. The new BT game does not seem to have retained the series in essence, in any way shape or form; nor did FO3 or 4—to give a parallel.

Your link you provided is a link about different typess of Turn Base, phase base being a type of Turn base.
The other FPS dungeon crawlers are not set in the same world, therefore they are not sequels.

Not really sure how an analogy with food really helps here. Game design has gone through evolutions for the last 30 years, many things learned through 30 years of progress, anchovies haven't evolved in our life time.

I still disagree, the essence of Bard's Tale is Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world. I didn't confuse anything.
actually bards tale trilogy used "simultanous turn", so not sure why you start talking about phase based. You DID play the games, right? ;)

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by eisberg » September 27th, 2018, 3:55 am

Spectralshade wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 3:44 am
eisberg wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:48 am
Gizmo wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 1:55 am
Puzzles? Turn Based? The originals were not turn based; the new one is. There plenty of first person dungeon crawlers, many of them with puzzles; that doesn't make them Bard's Tale.
Does it really seem to be the same world to you? I've seen many posts about how it does not seem to be the same world at all. :?

Not good game design huh? In whose opinion? We can easily liken this to the flavor of foods—not a good taste, say some. But that [flavor] is what one should be expect if the product uses the same name. If I see anchovy ice cream on the menu, I should not expect it to taste like anything but... It should not taste like cherry liquorice—regardless if that flavor had become more popular. You buy Bard's Tale to get Bard's Tale; not Hearthstone or Frayed Knights.

If you order (and pre-pay for) Vegemite... Nutella is not an acceptable substitute to be sent in its place...
even if it may look the same to the casual observer; or the person who just wants a bread spread.
Image
It's an acquired taste, and you search it out by name.
_______

I don't think they originally intended it as a Bait & Switch... but that's what this feels like.

Then you've disagreed by agreeing; a sequel is indeed more about keeping to what it is in essence, but you've confused "in essence" with 'in abstract'. The new BT game does not seem to have retained the series in essence, in any way shape or form; nor did FO3 or 4—to give a parallel.

Your link you provided is a link about different typess of Turn Base, phase base being a type of Turn base.
The other FPS dungeon crawlers are not set in the same world, therefore they are not sequels.

Not really sure how an analogy with food really helps here. Game design has gone through evolutions for the last 30 years, many things learned through 30 years of progress, anchovies haven't evolved in our life time.

I still disagree, the essence of Bard's Tale is Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world. I didn't confuse anything.
actually bards tale trilogy used "simultanous turn", so not sure why you start talking about phase based. You DID play the games, right? ;)
oh, give me a break, when you starting arguing semantics like that you are starting to already lose the debate. Simultanous is basically phased base.
Phased based, simultansous based which is a form of phase base, which are all forms of turn based. Now stop talking about semantics.

Actually we need to stop this conversation all together because it is way off topic for this thread.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Spectralshade » September 27th, 2018, 4:03 am

eisberg wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 3:55 am
Spectralshade wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 3:44 am
eisberg wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:48 am



Your link you provided is a link about different typess of Turn Base, phase base being a type of Turn base.
The other FPS dungeon crawlers are not set in the same world, therefore they are not sequels.

Not really sure how an analogy with food really helps here. Game design has gone through evolutions for the last 30 years, many things learned through 30 years of progress, anchovies haven't evolved in our life time.

I still disagree, the essence of Bard's Tale is Turn based, party based, First person view, Dungeon Crawling RPG with Puzzles set in the same world. I didn't confuse anything.
actually bards tale trilogy used "simultanous turn", so not sure why you start talking about phase based. You DID play the games, right? ;)
oh, give me a break, when you starting arguing semantics like that you are starting to already lose the debate. Simultanous is basically phased base.
Phased based, simultansous based which is a form of phase base, which are all forms of turn based. Now stop talking about semantics.

Actually we need to stop this conversation all together because it is way off topic for this thread.
the differences were laid out in the document you both referenced, so it's not semantics at all.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by DNACowboy » September 27th, 2018, 4:43 am

ZiN wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 2:21 am
Please keep it civil and avoid insulting prestigious scholars, like noblesse, who has worked hard to preserve the lore of Bard's Tale.
Then they should stop with the infantile insinuations then shouldn't they? The fact that you support anyone who makes such sly implications against other subscribers (who have done no wrong) tells me a lot about the type of person you are. Also, I never understand why people need to get personal; however, once begun, if mods choose to ignore sly personal insinuations please don't think I won't call out this sort of behaviour when I see it because I will.
Spectralshade wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 4:37 am
inally, I found it ironic that in a comment where you call someone "desperate and a little worse, crazy" you close off by saying he is not a responsible gentlemen with his personal attacks... Pot calls kettle black and all that...
You are confusing cause with effect, if I see that sly personal sort of insinuation then of course, I will respond, why? Because it poisons and demeans the entire forums discourse.
Moving on, as for your 'Trump' analogy I think you have it backwards. For the most part, those who like the game have been far more able to accept and address criticism of the game as opposed to those hell bent on hating the title, you only have to read the comments to see how rigid detractors are the way in they express themselves. Every single time someone has made a positive comment about the game the same usual suspects appear and do their very best to denounce it.

Finally, perhaps we should call BT4 detractors 'The Trumpians? what with their cry: 'Lets Make Bards Tale Great Again. ?
Last edited by DNACowboy on September 28th, 2018, 1:56 am, edited 9 times in total.
This poster receives no commercial consideration or work from Inxile, he truly believes Bards Tale IV: Barrows Deep to be a great game and one he enjoys on a daily basis

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Spectralshade » September 27th, 2018, 5:18 am

DNACowboy wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 4:43 am
ZiN wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 2:21 am
Please keep it civil and avoid insulting prestigious scholars, like noblesse, who has worked hard to preserve the lore of Bard's Tale.
Then they should stop with the infantile insinuations then shouldn't they? The fact that you support anyone who makes sly insinuations tells me a lot about the type of person you are also. I never understand why people need to get personal; however, once begun, if mods choose to ignore sly personal implications please don't think I won't call out this sort of behaviour when I see it because I will.
Spectralshade wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 4:37 am
inally, I found it ironic that in a comment where you call someone "desperate and a little worse, crazy" you close off by saying he is not a responsible gentlemen with his personal attacks... Pot calls kettle black and all that...
You are confusing cause with effect, if I see that sly personal sort of insinuation then of course, I will respond, why? Because it poisons and demeans the entire forums discourse.
Moving on, as for your 'Trump' analogy I think you have it backwards. For the most part, those who like the game have been far more able to accept and address criticism of the game as opposed to those hell bent on hating the title, you only have to read the comments to see how rigid detractors are the way in they express themselves. Every single time someone has made a positive comment about the game the same usual suspects appear and do their very best to denounce it.

Finally, perhaps we should call BT4 detractors 'The Trumpians? what with their cry: 'Lets Make Bards Tale Great Again. ?
I only need to present eisberg as my evidence.

You can be sure that if anyone says anything negative about anything regarding the game, he will be there to start saying how great it is.

Make up your own mind about the comparison.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by thebruce » September 27th, 2018, 6:58 am

Gizmo wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 6:22 pm
thebruce wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 11:52 am
Not really. Lord of the Rings IS primarily considered a trilogy.
LOTR is just one book; published in three volumes, because it was difficult to bind a book with that many pages—but single bound hardbacks do exist.
lol I KNEW someone would pick up on that. That's why I said "primarily" (trying to choose an appropriate word, but probably not the best). Or "generally". It was one story, broken into three, and three is how it is generally/primarily sold and treated. The movies parallel this structure. Point still being - it's a trilogy where each 'sequel' is necessary and written because it's ultimately one story, as opposed to a story extension tacked on after the fact to make a trilogy, or a sequel with content that contradicts prior elements.
You could say any true trilogy is one story from the start - the intent after part 1, incomplete, is to continue in part 2, and to complete in part 3.


Anyway...
Regarding the thread, it's walking the line with straying off topic by discussing the merits of the game rather than sharing or discussing reviews. Just a heads up y'all. :ugeek:
Visit BardsTaleOnline.com - your community Bard's Tale classic RPG resource!
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by PsychicMonk » September 27th, 2018, 8:10 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 11:51 pm
PsychicMonk wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 11:16 am
Interesting Article: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/bards-tal ... ertainment
As a big BT1-3 fan, I still wanted evolution. Just as Dragon Wars evolved BT, and Wizardry 6-8 evolved the genre further - I expected no less from BT4. However, all those games retained recognisable core gameplay that continues in series like Etrian and other similar Japanese titles like Elminage. BT4 is clearly not in the same thread of evolution.
Yes, I would have expected that they take Wizardry as a role model once again, then look at the more recent console crawlers and build upon that.

The first larger german site gave 70/100. Metacritic ratings are still mixed and according to steam players simultanously ingame went down below 1000 since yesterday ( https://steamdb.info/app/566090/graphs/). If this trend continues they will need BEDE instead of REST. Ratings are not everything. Look at Torment's ratings and did that help ?

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Spectralshade » September 27th, 2018, 9:59 am

DNACowboy wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 4:43 am
Finally, perhaps we should call BT4 detractors 'The Trumpians? what with their cry: 'Lets Make Bards Tale Great Again. ?
And just to make things perfectly clear: inXile were the one promising to make bards tale great again, while the detractors (especially backers) are the ones that got suckered in by the speeches and afterwards didn't feel that it had actually become all that great.

And as have been pointed out by others, both here and in the steam forums, number of people actually playing the game doesn't seem like it have been made "great" again.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by paultakeda » September 27th, 2018, 10:18 am

Gizmo wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 6:22 pm
thebruce wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 11:52 am
"I think there's something inherently destructive about sequels in general," Rogers points out. "Because if you liked the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers the next book can't actually be Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Something has to change. A character has to die, new characters have to be introduced. You have to be in a new land. There has to be a new problem. You can't advance a series without changing it."
Not really. Lord of the Rings IS primarily considered a trilogy.
LOTR is just one book; published in three volumes, because it was difficult to bind a book with that many pages—but single bound hardbacks do exist.
To be pedantic, LOTR is SIX books, published in THREE volumes.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » September 27th, 2018, 5:52 pm

Themadcow wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:58 am
eisberg wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:34 am
Seeing the faults of the series in the eyes of 30 years of game development progress, isn't talking crap about it, its looking at it objectively. That type of game play was great for its time and gave me a whole lot of enjoyment at that time, but that time has passed.
Japan disagrees.

30 years of game development in the sense of Bards Tale should have meant:
  • How can we improve the graphics while keeping the grid based feel?
    How can we expand the existing classes to make them more interesting (e.g. Paladin spells, Rogue poisons, Prestige classes)
    How can we improve the UI (clue: not the current inventory system)
    How can we make random encounters more interesting (add damage resistances, special abilities, group synergies, rare random 'bosses')
    How can we add new and rewarding systems (such as the clever way Etrian rewards rare crafting materials if you kill enemies a certain way)
    How can we improve the summoning/binding system to make summons as useful as party members (e.g. find and bind a specific monster that has a resistance or spell that's particularly useful in major encounter)
    How can we introduce side quests and a sense of overarching narrative without damaging the core gameplay (fast moving combat and exploration)
Yes, indeed, things like this. And, as ZiN mentioned, we did discuss how to evolve BT in a manner which preserved the essence of what it is. But, we weren't really heeded, hence the very alien Barrows Deep game.

The mildly-evolved BT remaster and its highly positive rating on Steam is testament that this is not a type of game play which is past its time. Some people's tastes may have changed over time, but not everyone's. And to a new generation, it can be something completely new and wonderful.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Hawkeye » September 27th, 2018, 9:04 pm

thebruce wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 11:52 am
The difficulty wasn't simply because it's a modern sequel to classic trilogy. The difficulty was because of what inXile wanted it to be. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with nostalgic gaming, the tension only comes when you ALSO want to make a game that appeals to a "modern" major marketplace. THAT is the tension.

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Exellent reply, couldn't have said it better myself.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Woolfe » September 27th, 2018, 10:31 pm

DNACowboy wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 4:43 am
ZiN wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 2:21 am
Please keep it civil and avoid insulting prestigious scholars, like noblesse, who has worked hard to preserve the lore of Bard's Tale.
Then they should stop with the infantile insinuations then shouldn't they? The fact that you support anyone who makes sly insinuations tells me a lot about the type of person you are also. I never understand why people need to get personal; however, once begun, if mods choose to ignore sly personal implications please don't think I won't call out this sort of behaviour when I see it because I will.
If you are seeing behaviour that you deem a personal attack on yourself or others, please use the Report function.

The mods will address these things, but they do all their discussions in private and usually by PM to the individuals involved.
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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by ZiN » September 28th, 2018, 2:17 am

Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

No, it is not really a sequel to Bard's Tale 1-3.

It is a sequel in name only, being fundamentally dishonest to the series, dropping everything that made those games great for us old-school dungeon-crawler fans and trying to reinvent the wheel, turning it into a weird mix of advernture, puzzle and tactics game, with light RPG elements and "corridor-crawling".

It is as much a sequel to the Bard's Tale series, as Fallout 3 is to the Fallout series, or Ultima IX is to the Ultima series.

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by balinor » September 28th, 2018, 12:09 pm

ZiN wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 2:17 am
Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

No, it is not really a sequel to Bard's Tale 1-3.

It is a sequel in name only, being fundamentally dishonest to the series, dropping everything that made those games great for us old-school dungeon-crawler fans and trying to reinvent the wheel, turning it into a weird mix of advernture, puzzle and tactics game, with light RPG elements and "corridor-crawling".

It is as much a sequel to the Bard's Tale series, as Fallout 3 is to the Fallout series, or Ultima IX is to the Ultima series.
I'd argue that Fallout 3 is much closer to Fallout 1 and 2 than BT4 is to the trilogy. That said, I'd love a proper Fallout sequel that kept the mechanics, that would be awesome.

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by Shismar » September 28th, 2018, 12:25 pm

balinor wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 12:09 pm
I'd argue that Fallout 3 is much closer to Fallout 1 and 2 than BT4 is to the trilogy. That said, I'd love a proper Fallout sequel that kept the mechanics, that would be awesome.
The game mechanics coudn't be further apart, I think. I still like the new Fallout series. Wouldn't mind a pretty, modern remake of the first two parts though. Wasteland 2 turned out nicely, the mechanics would work for Fallou too. (won't play wasteland 3, winter settings make me depressive. Really, winter is ugly enough in Germany).

I also think BT 4 is a decent successor of the trilogy. Not missing the old combat system, just played the remaster so no foggy recollection of 1985 necessary, and dang, it felt limited. Regrettably, the new combat system is not that much smarter. Four masteries and a couple spells and items? The bloody stupid save point system doesn't help either. But the story and the music! I like those and they certainly have this Bard's Tale feeling to me.

Now inXile folks! Get Patch 2 up already, I wan't to finish the game!

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Gizmo » September 28th, 2018, 12:48 pm

PsychicMonk wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 12:12 pm
They could have easily "hidden" the legacy mode features in some menu.
If it was in the menu, it would have been in some of the reviews.
Given the state of the game, I think they just couldn't delay the game any longer for whatever reasons and had to focus on whatever they thought is most important before the release.
But it should have been part of the core concept from the outset—not wallpaper.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by PsychicMonk » September 28th, 2018, 1:15 pm

Gizmo wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 12:48 pm
PsychicMonk wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 12:12 pm
They could have easily "hidden" the legacy mode features in some menu.
If it was in the menu, it would have been in some of the reviews.
Given the state of the game, I think they just couldn't delay the game any longer for whatever reasons and had to focus on whatever they thought is most important before the release.
But it should have been part of the core concept from the outset—not wallpaper.
Yes, as discussed before they should have created a grid based game with the option to move freely and not the other way round. I'm not sure if adding grid movement to Barrows Deep is really worth the effort. I won't use it in this game.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Gizmo » September 28th, 2018, 1:29 pm

That was my concern also. :(

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