Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

For all Bard's Tale IV discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by thebruce » September 28th, 2018, 2:23 pm

The grid legacy feature will have to change MUCH more about the game than merely locking the player to a grid/node system. I fear that that's what it will be though, and we'll still be required to use freelook to access elements of the game world that would otherwise be much easier to access with free movement too. ie, I fear that grid-locking will make the game worse, unless a number of other fundamental game mechanics are also adjusted to make it work more like the original trilogy. I can only hope that's why it's been delayed so long.
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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by balinor » September 28th, 2018, 2:48 pm

Shismar wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 12:25 pm
balinor wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 12:09 pm
I'd argue that Fallout 3 is much closer to Fallout 1 and 2 than BT4 is to the trilogy. That said, I'd love a proper Fallout sequel that kept the mechanics, that would be awesome.
The game mechanics coudn't be further apart, I think.
I know, that was kind of the point. It was pretty facetious I admit. However, I enjoyed Fallout 3 (to some degree) by playing it as a somewhat shallow rpg with poor writing but awesome landscapes by treating it as not a fallout game. I tried that approach with BT4 as well but my honest opinion is the game is junk and not even remotely fun.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Hieronymous Alloy » September 29th, 2018, 7:24 am

Yeah, DD has a lot more randomized elements in the combat, and to a degree in the maps (though they aren't nearly as randomized as a true roguelike -- modern games are too limited by art demands to go whole hog random). The main selling point for DD is the art style and "feel" though.

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by Morfos » September 29th, 2018, 9:00 am

I never played the original Bard's Tale games; the remastering is my first exposure to them. I did, however, play their contemporaries, Might and Magic and Ultima. All of them started out with grid-based movement and turn-based combat. Might and Magic and Ultima, however, eventually progressed beyond that, whereas I gather Bard's Tale never did.

Who knows what form BT would have taken in later releases? There's no way to at this point reverse engineer the process of developing design concepts and technology. It cannot be said how different a BT sequel today would be if it had gone through a succession of new developments.

Personally I consider this game a "tribute" game. I wouldn't expect a Queen tribute band to have a Freddy Mercury, or even a compellingly convincing lookalike, and I don't expect this game to truly and accurately represent what might have been.

I can respect the amount of work put into the game. Reading development updates on other games, it is apparently insanely hard to get consistent voice actor talent on a budget over an extended period of time. Rather a lot of scenery and graphical elements were produced that on the one hand tried to be faithful to an existing body of lore and on the other hand had no comparable foundation to work from. And, of course, the music.

I wasn't really expecting a sequel. If it had been a direct sequel by the actual developers, I'd've expected more -- like perhaps some intervening sequels over the years. But for a kickstarter-driven tribute, it's not too bad.

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by Jalis » September 29th, 2018, 9:09 am

Problem with some of those analogies, though, is that by and large, the Ultima and M&M proper series essentially died and became shadows of their former selves. When Ultima 8 came out with its Super Mario jumping puzzles, and then Ultima 9 with its attempt at 3d graphics, it was largely reviled and hated. That possibly should have shown what happens to the classics when they go too far to be something other than what they once were.

It's certainly a difficult proposition. This game isn't bad at all, I'm quite enjoying it, but as has been said ad naseum... I don't really feel like I'm playing Bard's Tale as much as some kind of Stonekeep/Hearthstone hybrid. I honestly think that if inXile had thought just a bit simpler, and more along the lines of Etrian and some of the Japanese Wizardry clones (not steal/mimic/duplicate, but draw inspiration from), this could have been so much closer to what we were expecting as backers. Would it be receiving generally positive but flawed gaming press attention? Probably not. But I have a really bad feeling this game is going to disappear somewhere along the way as an "also ran", which would be sad for the series and inXile.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Mygaffer » September 29th, 2018, 9:52 am

I haven't played Bard's Tale IV yet but the original games were so old and game design has advanced a lot since those games. Anyone expecting a prettier looking version of those same games was bound to be disappointed.

I will say that inXile still hasn't delivered that great crowd funded game yet, unless I find I just totally love BTIV. I really liked a lot of what was going on in Wasteland 2 but it needed more polish. Torment is an interesting game but I did not like the combat system, they either needed to completely rework the combat or simply remove it, as it's obvious combat was never a focus for the game.

Now I'm hearing mixed things about BTIV but I will reserve judgement until I actually play it.

It looks like Wasteland 3 is getting some real money behind it and will have much higher levels of fidelity than Wasteland 2 so I'm hopping that's going to be their Pillars or Divinity Original Sin.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Spectralshade » September 29th, 2018, 10:05 am

Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:52 am
I haven't played Bard's Tale IV yet but the original games were so old and game design has advanced a lot since those games. Anyone expecting a prettier looking version of those same games was bound to be disappointed.

can we just stop with this strawman?

It is getting tiring of seeing people keep making this statement without even thinking about what people actually asked for or what people made of suggestions.

Seriously...

It is degrading to the whole debate that people keep pulling this attempted argument forth all the time when it is quite obvious to anyone actually looking at what people have asked for that it is simply a bogus argument.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Mygaffer » September 29th, 2018, 10:09 am

Spectralshade wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 4:37 am
DNACowboy wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 1:41 am
You are really starting to sound desperate and worse, a little crazy. The rest of us have moved on, enjoying the game for the most part, but here you are still pontificating on just how ‘bad’ the game is and questioning (in frankly nasty detail) the motivations of people who love the game as if to say ‘omg, I hate this game why don’t others? they must have some sort of ulterior motive’, honestly, move on.
In closing, it’s funny, your nick ‘Noblisse Oblige’ (privilege demands responsibility)? You have shown yourself to be anything but a responsible gentleman what with your personal attacks and now these sly insinuations.
That comment reminds me of something...

Notably Trump supporters saying things along the line of "We won, move on and let us do what we want with your life".

The problem is that, for better or worse, I, as a backer, have ended up with this thing that cost me $95 dollars which is something completely different than what I was led to expect because of the naming used of the product.

I don't care how much you enjoy the product. It's still not the product inXile led me to believe I was backing and it still gives me zero hope that I will ever actually get a real bards tale 4 when they have released this product with this name. Having it be released for any period of time does not magically change these facts.

To compare: Wizards of the coast more or less destroyed the broad cardgame scene back in the days by trying to patent the concept of trading card games and pulling lots of small companies to courtrooms where the cost of fighting back left those companies in ruins. This totally douche move by the company made me stop buying their products, even though I had been an avid magic and collecter up until then (I still have the cards collecting dust in binders, so by todays evaluation there's actually quite alot of money in those binders). It's been a while since they destroyed the broad card scene, but the hell if I am going to suddenly forget and ignore what they did back then and start buying their products or let them be praised without bringing up the negatives. It is the exact same with my opinion of inXile in this regard.

Not only have they destroyed anychance of a real bards tale 4 that honored the heritage of its predecessors, but if the massive dumbing down of mechanics they did is seen as a success (not to mention turning a cRPG encounter-grinder into a puzzlegame with light rpg elements) then the effect they will have on future releases will also be detrimental.

finally, I found it ironic that in a comment where you call someone "desperate and a little worse, crazy" you close off by saying he is not a responsible gentlemen with his personal attacks... Pot calls kettle black and all that...
You shouldn't have backed this game it sounds like. Crowd funding is great, I've backed a lot of titles. Divinity: Original Sin 2, The Bards Tale IV, Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, Yooka-Laylee, Underworld Ascendant, The Mandate, Mighty No. 9 (not a good game but not as terrible as people made it out to be), WARMACHINE: TACTICS, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire and Wasteland 3.

Among those titles three of them haven't even released and are multiple years past their original release date and several of them were disappointing (Yooka-Laylee, Warmachine, Mighty No.9). That's the thing about crowdfunding. These games are not even made yet. There are no reviews, many times you've got nothing more than a pitch and some concept art to go on. You take a risk when you back a game. That game may not end up being the product you hoped it would be. That game may never actually come out at all.

It's OK not to like BTIV but if you are going to be this upset please, please do not drop $95 on a game that isn't even made yet. You could have instead waited until now, watched video of the game being played, read reviews, and then decide to skip the release.

Crowdfunding is about helping getting a game made either because you believe in the concept, the developer, or both. Anyone who can't handle being disappointed by the end result should not be backing games.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Mygaffer » September 29th, 2018, 10:12 am

Spectralshade wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 10:05 am
Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:52 am
I haven't played Bard's Tale IV yet but the original games were so old and game design has advanced a lot since those games. Anyone expecting a prettier looking version of those same games was bound to be disappointed.

can we just stop with this strawman?

It is getting tiring of seeing people keep making this statement without even thinking about what people actually asked for or what people made of suggestions.

Seriously...

It is degrading to the whole debate that people keep pulling this attempted argument forth all the time when it is quite obvious to anyone actually looking at what people have asked for that it is simply a bogus argument.
I don't think you know what "strawman" refers to.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Gizmo » September 29th, 2018, 11:34 am

Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:52 am
I haven't played Bard's Tale IV yet but the original games were so old and game design has advanced a lot since those games. Anyone expecting a prettier looking version of those same games was bound to be disappointed.
Why bother to use the name then? There is nothing wrong with making new games, but if the series' name, reputation, and its gameplay is meaningless to either them or to their intended market, then why anchor a new project to an archaic series IP that comes with baggage?
Why make an unrelated game using a name that only means something to the players who will realize and object to an alien style of game bearing the name, and being shoehorned into that numbered series? How does this not come off as feeling disingenuous?

This happened to the Fallout IP too, Bethesda pulled the same stunt; as some at InXile (especially) would have noticed.
Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:52 am
It looks like Wasteland 3 is getting some real money behind it and will have much higher levels of fidelity than Wasteland 2...
Higher levels of fidelity... to what exactly? :?

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by ZiN » September 29th, 2018, 11:52 am

Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 10:09 am
You shouldn't have backed this game it sounds like.
Go on!
Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 10:09 am
Crowdfunding is about helping getting a game made either because you believe in the concept, the developer, or both.
We did believe in both.
Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 10:09 am
Anyone who can't handle being disappointed by the end result should not be backing games.
Don't worry, we can and will handle it! Lesson learned: Never back anything from InXile, ever again.

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by Gizmo » September 29th, 2018, 12:05 pm

Morfos wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:00 am
I never played the original Bard's Tale games; the remastering is my first exposure to them. I did, however, play their contemporaries, Might and Magic and Ultima. All of them started out with grid-based movement and turn-based combat. Might and Magic and Ultima, however, eventually progressed beyond that, whereas I gather Bard's Tale never did.
There is no such thing... You imply that there is something to progress to... The gameplay IS the game. Keeping the setting, but converting it to ~say... a First Person Shooter, or an iso/3D RTS... is simply divesting the project of its trace relation to Bard's Tale; it becomes a spin-off (Like the so-called FO3 and its own sequel).

A product's name has meaning, and if you are not going to provide what it means... then why bother with the name? Make something else—with a different name.

Imagine they announce HALO 6, and someone pre-orders it, and when it arrives, it's a Halo Wars clone... Great game, but that's not what —anyone anticipates when ordering the next Halo sequel*. It's not why they would seek out the series' name to buy another one.

*Of course... this plays out the same in reverse. It would be quite a let-down to have bought Halo-Wars 2 or 3, and discover that they made an FPS of it. Gameplay is intrinsic. Mechanics are only bad if they don't work; Realtime (for instance) is not progress from Turn based—nor the reverse; each is better than the other at their own intended experience. Elderscrolls 6 would not offer the the TES series' experience using Fallout's game mechanics, and well... we saw what Fallout was like with the Elder Scroll's mechanics. :( It was nothing more than a TES reskin.
Personally I consider this game a "tribute" game. I wouldn't expect a Queen tribute band to have a Freddy Mercury, or even a compellingly convincing lookalike, and I don't expect this game to truly and accurately represent what might have been.
I would, and would expect a decent effort at it—or I wouldn't bother with them.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Drool » September 29th, 2018, 2:02 pm

Applicator wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 4:25 am
BT IV plays nothing like Hearthstone. There are no cards you draw and Hearthstone has no gear etc
You say that...

The difference between "your deck of cards" and "your mastery books" are cosmetic at best. The mastery book and the limited skills that you can change out of combat but not in it, is pretty much your Hearthstone deck. Gaining skills is, essentially, getting new cards to put into your deck. You play your cards during your turn while your opponent plays his during his turn. Like Hearthstone (and pretty much every CCG ever), your attacks will never miss and always do a set amount of damage.

Yes, Hearthstone doesn't have gear, but nobody ever said it was a one-to-one ripoff. There's no way someone who has played both can honestly say they're nothing alike. And that's without getting into the numerous times Fargo name-checked Hearthstone when talking about design, helpfully linked by Gizmo.
Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 5:59 am
The combat is basically Darkest Dungeon, but four cells wide, two deep instead of one cell wide, four deep. Lots of push/pull mechanics.
As mentioned, Darkest Dungeon has much more RNG, attacks can miss, attacks have damage ranges, etc. There are similarities, but I found Darkest Dungeon to have much deeper mechanics.

To say nothing of how much more oppressive and brutal Darkest Dungeon is.
Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 7:24 am
Yeah, DD has a lot more randomized elements in the combat, and to a degree in the maps (though they aren't nearly as randomized as a true roguelike
There's a limited number of layouts for a given map location, but the contents within can be pretty randomized.
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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by Drool » September 29th, 2018, 2:16 pm

Morfos wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:00 am
I never played the original Bard's Tale games; the remastering is my first exposure to them. I did, however, play their contemporaries, Might and Magic and Ultima. All of them started out with grid-based movement and turn-based combat. Might and Magic and Ultima, however, eventually progressed beyond that, whereas I gather Bard's Tale never did.
No, I'm not gonna go along with that. Honestly, the best way to illustrate this is with two long running JRPGs.

On the one hand, compare Final Fantasy (1987) to Final Fantasy XV (2016). Almost 30 years between those two releases and they are very, very different games. Many mechanics have changed and evolved over the years, as has the setting, lore, and so on. There are call backs and regular things (chocobos, somebody being named Cid, etc) but they are wildly different games. You could easily be forgiven for thinking they are two completely different properties that have nothing in common but a few little things.

Our other example is Dragon Warrior (1986) to Dragon Quest XI (2017). Likewise, almost 30 years between the two. Like Final Fantasy there are plenty of callbacks (Puff-Puff, slimes, etc.). Unlike the Final Fantasy series, while the gameplay and graphics have updated, they're still very, very similar to the original game, and likewise the setting and lore. While they changed the name of the series, they kept the core of the game.

What we have here is a whole bunch of people who were expecting Dragon Quest XI, but instead, we got Final Fantasy XV.
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Spectralshade » September 30th, 2018, 2:04 pm

Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 10:12 am
Spectralshade wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 10:05 am
Mygaffer wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 9:52 am
I haven't played Bard's Tale IV yet but the original games were so old and game design has advanced a lot since those games. Anyone expecting a prettier looking version of those same games was bound to be disappointed.

can we just stop with this strawman?

It is getting tiring of seeing people keep making this statement without even thinking about what people actually asked for or what people made of suggestions.

Seriously...

It is degrading to the whole debate that people keep pulling this attempted argument forth all the time when it is quite obvious to anyone actually looking at what people have asked for that it is simply a bogus argument.
I don't think you know what "strawman" refers to.
straw man
noun
noun: straw man; plural noun: straw men; noun: strawman; plural noun: strawmen

1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
"her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"

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Re: Is this REALLY a Bard's Tale sequel ???

Post by rakenan » October 3rd, 2018, 8:47 pm

Well I for one, as a backer and a fan of the old series, absolutely hate the game. I'm really glad they actually got the remastered trilogy done, because at least I got something I enjoy out of my backing. I know backing a Kickstarter project is always a gamble, but after Wasteland 2 and TToN, I thought I had pretty good odds.

I don't think I'll be backing anything from this company any more. I don't feel cheated or anything hyperbolic like that - any game pre-purchase has the risk that you won't like the game when it comes out. They delivered a game. I just feel disappointed that they didn't trust the appeal of the original trilogy enough to at least try to stay true to it.
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