Save game system...

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Warhameron
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Save game system...

Post by Warhameron » September 18th, 2018, 10:57 am

WHY... you make save/load system from console games ... I cant back to game to place when in stayed (i wanted to public screens). You ruined this game with this shity stupid save/load system. Make normal save/load system like in all other dungeon crawler games. Fck i lose faith in you inxile... No more $ from me for your next games if you dont change it.

Shismar
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How to ruin a good game!

Post by Shismar » September 18th, 2018, 2:01 pm

I'll have to second this, language or not, because the save game points are a really horrible game mechanic and make it impossible for me to enjoy the game. I am completely baffled how such an ancient pain in the a** system made it through beta. You opened it to brainless masochists only?

Seriously, I am really angry now because I was really looking forward to BT 4 and you blew it. Fix this and put in a regular game save feature.

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Nystrom
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Nystrom » September 18th, 2018, 2:15 pm

Oh no! Can't save scum for once?
Last edited by Nystrom on September 18th, 2018, 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jalis
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Jalis » September 18th, 2018, 2:28 pm

It's not just the save scum kind of thing... having to make it from checkpoint to checkpoint feels a little "console-y" and off for this. I get that we used to have to travel all the way back to the Adventurer's Guild to save in the 80s/90s in the originals, but something about this just feels clumsy.

Or maybe it's just that I'm in my 40s now and don't always have too long to play, and having to play until a checkpoint doesn't seem right anymore. Then again, I'm not too far into the game yet, and with fast travel and all that, maybe it's not as bad as the initial Skara Brae underground seems?

Still seems to be too console based, either way. ;)

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thebruce
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Re: Save game system...

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2018, 2:43 pm

Please avoid name calling (little babies) in the forum, thanks.
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Applicator » September 18th, 2018, 6:01 pm

Pretty sure you can quit at any point and then come back to where you left off. If you die or want to save scum you need to go back to the save point.

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Re: Save game system...

Post by satoru » September 18th, 2018, 7:09 pm

The save system is actually more interesting. You can save the game or you get more XP. Thus save now represent a real risk-reward scenario that normal save points don't give you.

You really can't call save points a 'console' thing when like you know BT1 had save points at only the adventurers guild

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Nystrom
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Nystrom » September 18th, 2018, 7:25 pm

thebruce wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 2:43 pm
Please avoid name calling (little babies) in the forum, thanks.
That's fair. Modified.

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thebruce
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Re: Save game system...

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2018, 10:21 pm

There are Luckstones and Ancient Luckstones (that's the distinction AFAIK) - Luckstones allow saving multiple times, Ancient Luckstones are the single-use save or consume waypoints.
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Shismar
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It's not the 80's anymore

Post by Shismar » September 19th, 2018, 1:32 am

The reason why modern RPG games have a full featured save and restore anytime system is that most players don't buy into the technical induced pain mechanics anymore. Console ports still do it if the implementation is sloppy and rarely fare well with it.

And yes, Luckstones do make BT 4 look like a cheap console port.

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Crosmando
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Crosmando » September 19th, 2018, 1:34 am

Hopefully we get a save anywhere mod, if such a thing is even possible.
Matthias did nothing wrong!

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Themadcow
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Re: It's not the 80's anymore

Post by Themadcow » September 19th, 2018, 1:44 am

Shismar wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 1:32 am
The reason why modern RPG games have a full featured save and restore anytime system is that most players don't buy into the technical induced pain mechanics anymore. Console ports still do it if the implementation is sloppy and rarely fare well with it.

And yes, Luckstones do make BT 4 look like a cheap console port.
The debate around saving has been had TO DEATH on these forums - it's probably the thread with the most posts on here.

Ultimately, while save anywhere/time is convenient it also takes all the risk and reward out of the game (the BT remaster evidences how much less challenging it makes things). Equally, extreme restrictions such as "save at AG only" aren't practical in a modern game. The best compromise is a restricted save system that they've put in place.

One thing to bear in mind is that the entire game needs to be rebalanced around save anywhere if that's the system, because you need to make encounters significantly harder to balance the overall difficulty nerf.
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thebruce
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Re: Save game system...

Post by thebruce » September 19th, 2018, 6:12 am

I'm not a fan of using BT classic to support restricted saving. BT2 and 3 had save anywhere. It was only BT1 that didn't. Unless you're a BT1 purist and 2 and 3 were not good games, it's inconsistent.
That said, this is comment about whether the save system in BT4 or the general concept is good or bad; just a clarification for the fact that 2 and 3 did indeed have save anywhere.
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Jalis
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Jalis » September 19th, 2018, 8:44 am

The Ancient Luckstone save or +xp mechanic is also flawed, because of another flawed mechanic -- that you are forced to have pregen characters from the start of the game. I want to create my own characters and ditch the pregens, but can't until some time in the future when I am given mercenary tokens ( :roll: ), which means that while I'm exploring with the forced pregen characters and coming across these Ancient Luckstones, I basically have to ignore them since they are one time use events. Otherwise, using them now with my pregen means losing out on the extra XP later for the characters I eventually create myself. Very flawed system, that.

While I assume there will be plenty of battles and opportunities to fully max out your own characters, too, these forced pregens soaking up potential early game xp kinda sucks.

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Re: Save game system...

Post by kanisatha » October 1st, 2018, 7:54 am

Yeah for me this save system really sucks and I absolutely hate it. Had they said this was how saves were going to be handled during the Kickstarter campaign I would've withdrawn my pledge. So I feel cheated because I spent all this money on backing this game and now will likely never ever play it. Not all of us players are young kids with all the time in the world to play video games. I can only play for a little while at a time, and what precious play time I've already put into the game I cannot afford to lose. For me, hitting Quicksave very often is the most basic element of my gaming experience, and not having that option is absolutely unacceptable.

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Re: Save game system...

Post by Themadcow » October 1st, 2018, 8:17 am

kanisatha wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 7:54 am
Not all of us players are young kids with all the time in the world to play video games. I can only play for a little while at a time, and what precious play time I've already put into the game I cannot afford to lose. For me, hitting Quicksave very often is the most basic element of my gaming experience, and not having that option is absolutely unacceptable.
I both disagree a little, and sympathise. For context, I have a family and demanding job so 4-6 hours of gaming a week is about as good as it gets for me. My gaming time is incredibly precious to me.

I disagree about quicksaving, because whether intended or not - people abuse the hell out of it. Where does the tension come if you know that death is just a mere 5 minute inconvenience? The answer to the question "should I risk one more fight, or turn back to safety?" is always "risk one more fight"... because there is no actual risk to speak of. For that reason, I opposed unlimited saves.

People say "ah, but surely you could just make it optional?" but that isn't true - because by making save anytime a feature, you then have to make encounters tougher in order to balance out the difficulty. Very few single encounters in BT1 were tough - the difficulty came from how far down you were willing to explore before spell/hitpoints ran out.

On the other hand, I sympathise because BT4 has not been designed around gameplay of the type I describe above. We didn't know that until a fair way through development, when it became clear that there would be no spellpoint resource, that there would be no random encounters, and that the game would be designed around linear progression. We didn't know that drawn out puzzles would make up so much of the game. If we'd had a clearer view of the game design in the early stages then the debate around saving would have been very different.

TL;DR - there's lots of merit in a save restricted system, but only if the game itself is designed around risk and reward. What we've ended up is something that probably doesn't suit anyone particularly well.
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thebruce
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Re: Save game system...

Post by thebruce » October 1st, 2018, 10:28 am

Once again, remember that BT2 and 3 both had save anywhere. So unless you detest BT2 and 3 as much as BD in regards to saving, arguments against the concept of save anywhere fail if it was "okay" for bt2 and 3 to do it but not BD.

I totally understand the arguments about the drawbacks of save anywhere (I've argued for them as well), but if bt2 and 3 got it right in contrast to those arguments, then if you defend 2 and 3, the arguments can't work against BD also implementing it.
TL;DR - there's lots of merit in a save restricted system, but only if the game itself is designed around risk and reward. What we've ended up is something that probably doesn't suit anyone particularly well.
I can agree with this :)
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Re: Save game system...

Post by Zadkiel » October 1st, 2018, 10:36 am

I just hit some sort of bug that completely deleted everything in my inventory and lore tabs. I've read about many other people encountering the same problem. This is on patch 2.

My last save was 3 hours ago, and since then I had looted multiple random armors and other items that had been significant upgrades.

So now I'm faced with repeating the last 3 hours AND never getting those items back.

A game this buggy can't restrict saving this much.

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Re: It's not the 80's anymore

Post by Wintermute_of_Cof » October 3rd, 2018, 4:27 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 1:44 am
The best compromise is a restricted save system that they've put in place.
The best compromise is to make it an optional difficulty setting as in many modern games, e.g.: save anywhere; save at preset points only; iron man mode.
Themadcow wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 1:44 am
One thing to bear in mind is that the entire game needs to be rebalanced around save anywhere if that's the system, because you need to make encounters significantly harder to balance the overall difficulty nerf.
It really doesn't. The game doesn't need to be the same difficulty for everyone. If I want to make my playthrough easier that has no impact on your playthrough.
Themadcow wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 8:17 am
I disagree about quicksaving, because whether intended or not - people abuse the hell out of it. Where does the tension come if you know that death is just a mere 5 minute inconvenience?
Why does it matter to you what other people are doing or how they are finding enjoyment?

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Themadcow
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Re: It's not the 80's anymore

Post by Themadcow » October 3rd, 2018, 5:00 am

Wintermute_of_Cof wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 4:27 am
Themadcow wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 8:17 am
I disagree about quicksaving, because whether intended or not - people abuse the hell out of it. Where does the tension come if you know that death is just a mere 5 minute inconvenience?
Why does it matter to you what other people are doing or how they are finding enjoyment?
It matters to me because there are lots of RPG's released these days that have a zero risk quick-save system, and barely any RPG's that actually make you question whether you should take that next battle or opt for safety. Do you think that Dark Souls should let you save anytime because that's how you want to play? It would be entirely counter to the intended design of the game.

You absolutely have to balance game design around the save system in these type of games. One type of game is about pushing the limits of your resources (HP, SP, Items) as you explore - which means lots of encounters, randomness but no unfair difficulty spikes or gimmick fights to learn. The other type of game is about story and specific encounter design.

However, as I've already stated that the design direction they took BT4 in was not suitable for restricted saving. I couldn't care less if they have unlimited permanent saves in BT4 because without HP/SP management and random encounters there is no resource management risk in the first place.
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