Bard's Tale IV Reviews

For all Bard's Tale IV discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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Lanatir
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Lanatir » September 19th, 2018, 9:59 am

Ok, What you people really need to ask yourself is this. Do you REALLY think that there is a group of people that has nothing better to do than to pick a game, buy it, and then start blasting it with negative reviews in an organized matter just to give it a bad review? Seriously?
Then let me ask you this: Who organizes those events? Which games are picked? Who decides which games will be picked? Why are other games being left alone?
Why are there games that get outstanding reviews from Day 1?
Do you REALLY think the bad scores are completely undeserving? Or MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, some of those people are legitimately concerned by a game that came out with VERY bad optimization? Which is a a problem that the Devs already admitted to existing?
I DO understand that you like this game, it has its merits. But you need to stop thinking that bad reviews on steam are completely false and wrong and only being done to piss you off personally.
And the funniest thing is that you on the same side Cherish Reviews from Gaming magazines that get PAID for writing them, and that spend maybe 2 or 3 hours testing the game on a superpowered rig with a direct call phoneline to the devs that normal users dont have, in case there are bugs or technical problems.
This game has problems. Lots of them.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Nystrom » September 19th, 2018, 10:01 am

Lanatir wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 9:59 am
Ok, What you people really need to ask yourself is this. Do you REALLY think that there is a group of people that has nothing better to do than to pick a game, buy it, and then start blasting it with negative reviews in an organized matter just to give it a bad review? Seriously?
Absolutely, 100%. Look at the player base of video games. Seriously. You're incredibly naive if you honestly think otherwise.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by thebruce » September 19th, 2018, 10:13 am

What the problem is is that upset people because of the process up to the point of being able to play the game is bad are posting ratings that are intended to be about the game itself. What Steam could do is provide a general rollout review section or somehow segment out actual gameplay reviews (perhaps prioritize longer playtime feedback) distinct from gut reactions and gun jumpers.
It's not that the earlybird reviews (oka 'trolls') are wrong in and of themselves, but they're not necessarily relevant to the quality of the game.

If there's no way to see that a 0/10 is because someone hated the key distribution system rather than because they really disliked the game after playing for 10 hours, then the review system has room for improvement. Or rather, if the two types of responses are grouped together as equally valid towards a general game rating (even if each playtime is prominent)...
Note: I haven't looked at the Steam ratings; just commenting on reactions here :P

A review after 1 hour playtime and absolutely hating a game should be as valid as a review after 20 hours and loving it. Both reflect a person's experience. So it would depend what you're looking for... eg, General reactions? See all playtimes >0. Content analysis? Prioritize long playtimes. Property handling? See all ratings across the board.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Lanatir » September 19th, 2018, 10:18 am

thebruce wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 10:13 am
What the problem is is that upset people because of the process up to the point of being able to play the game is bad are posting ratings that are intended to be about the game itself. What Steam could do is provide a general rollout review section or somehow segment out actual gameplay reviews (perhaps prioritize longer playtime feedback) distinct from gut reactions and gun jumpers.
It's not that the earlybird reviews (oka 'trolls') are wrong in and of themselves, but they're not necessarily relevant to the quality of the game.

If there's no way to see that a 0/10 is because someone hated the key distribution system rather than because they really disliked the game after playing for 10 hours, then the review system has room for improvement. Or rather, if the two types of responses are grouped together as equally valid towards a general game rating (even if each playtime is prominent)...
Note: I haven't looked at the Steam ratings; just commenting on reactions here :P

A review after 1 hour playtime and absolutely hating a game should be as valid as a review after 20 hours and loving it. Both reflect a person's experience. So it would depend what you're looking for... eg, General reactions? See all playtimes >0. Content analysis? Prioritize long playtimes. Property handling? See all ratings across the board.
I think every review that gives the game a bad rating based on bad performance is 100% justified. If a game stutters and is slow, and not only for one or two people, but for apparently very many of them, then that is a totally fine reason to write a bad review.
(Especially considering that most of those bugs and performance problems apparently were reported multiple times during beta testing.)

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Rizmel » September 19th, 2018, 10:21 am

Nystrom wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 6:10 am
Crosmando wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 1:36 am
Nystrom wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 11:00 am


LOL. Trolls are going to troll.
Many aren't trolls though, they mention the fact that the game isn't faithful to Bard's Tale.
I've read about 20% of them, and every single one is a troll/meaningnless negative post complaining about one or two things while providing ZERO value because they have spent 10 hours or less in the game.

so, your argument is that all negative feedback is trolling? no one could possibly dislike the game? were there not enormous threads on this board about how BTIV sucks balls? I believe there were/are. I am almost positive that the backers were the target audience, and several were extremely vocal about how the product did not match the label. bugs are to be expected to an extent, because playtesting is unlikely to uncover every possible situation. from what I've seen, that is not what the majority of the negativity is about.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by thebruce » September 19th, 2018, 10:30 am

Lanatir wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 10:18 am
I think every review that gives the game a bad rating based on bad performance is 100% justified. If a game stutters and is slow, and not only for one or two people, but for apparently very many of them, then that is a totally fine reason to write a bad review.
(Especially considering that most of those bugs and performance problems apparently were reported multiple times during beta testing.)
Absolutely. I wasn't commenting about detailed content. I was referring to the playtime (how much content and functionality has been experienced) and context (having played the game or not), in relation to what someone is interested in knowing about. Bugs are absolutely relevant to game content. Key distribution experience before playing (eg) is not - but it is relevant to the general experience with the brand/company. Having a better way to distinguish the two would be beneficial to all.

If someone wants to know what the game is like, being bogged down with 80% of the 'game reviews' being bad experiences by people who haven't yet touched the game is not helpful at all.
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Nystrom
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Nystrom » September 19th, 2018, 12:30 pm

Rizmel wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 10:21 am
Nystrom wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 6:10 am
Crosmando wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 1:36 am

Many aren't trolls though, they mention the fact that the game isn't faithful to Bard's Tale.
I've read about 20% of them, and every single one is a troll/meaningnless negative post complaining about one or two things while providing ZERO value because they have spent 10 hours or less in the game.

so, your argument is that all negative feedback is trolling? no one could possibly dislike the game? were there not enormous threads on this board about how BTIV sucks balls? I believe there were/are. I am almost positive that the backers were the target audience, and several were extremely vocal about how the product did not match the label. bugs are to be expected to an extent, because playtesting is unlikely to uncover every possible situation. from what I've seen, that is not what the majority of the negativity is about.
Yes, that's my argument based on the fact no one's played enough of the game to make a realistic determination. Just because it's not what is expected, doesn't mean it's actually a terrible game. Moreover, this expectation that ANY game comes largely bug free at release anymore is unfortunate fallacy. Until buyers stop buying 80-90% finished games at release, there will be little motivation for developers of any size to really make 'going gold' mean it.

I also noted that positive reviews are also just as baseless as the negative ones. People playing under 20 hours frankly shouldn't be allowed to post reviews. Period. It's supposed to be a game review. A game you actually played.

edit: for the record I'm more or less waiting for them to fix 3440x1440 setting before playing much more than the intro. I'm just logged out at the new guild hall. I can wait a few days.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by IHaveHugeNick » September 20th, 2018, 3:23 am

Boy, I'm having a deja vu from Torment release thread. Catastrophe of a launch, devastating Steam reviews, lukewarm press reception, and yet this forum, just like back then, still claims everything is fine and BT4 is about to sell 50 trillion units any day now.

Games don't recover from having 41% negative rating on launch day. Sorry folks. It's dead.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Crosmando » September 20th, 2018, 4:03 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 3:23 am
Sorry folks. It's dead.
I hope so, maybe from the ashes InXile will start making actual old-school CRPGs, also close down InXile New Orleans.

Also hilarious is that the old "Unity is a bad engine" seems to have been proven a myth, InXile are just bad programmers whatever engine they use.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Lord of Riva » September 20th, 2018, 4:15 am

Nystrom wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 12:30 pm

I also noted that positive reviews are also just as baseless as the negative ones. People playing under 20 hours frankly shouldn't be allowed to post reviews. Period. It's supposed to be a game review. A game you actually played.

an arbitrary timeframe does not help, Users can refund the game only 2 hours into the game, its natural that they have to write a negative review in that timeframe.

Also Reviews that say "I can play this shit, its not working" are as valid as a detailed Review.

The Reviews are there for possible customers to judge if the game should be purchased. If a great number of people cant play the game as its simply not working then the reviews are accurate. And people who are interested should know that the game will most likely not work with a specific set up.

I'm 8 hours in and i have certainly played worse that doesn't mean it's great though.
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Boy, I'm having a deja vu from Torment release thread.

Well we saw that one coming for a while now, didn't we?
I hope so, maybe from the ashes InXile will start making actual old-school CRPGs, also close down InXile New Orleans.

Also hilarious is that the old "Unity is a bad engine" seems to have been proven a myth, InXile are just bad programmers whatever engine they use.
I don't believe they will, it has been proven time and time again that InXile doesn't listen to their critics.

We have seen that with Quotes about graphic qualities in WL2, comments that say that people do not know what they want (but they know better)´, Ignored Feedback on Torment and also Bards Tale 4.

As the critique is kind of lost i'm pretty sure they will go and move along to other venues where they think they can earn more money, as i would assume they think it's our fault that the games aren't recieved well, not theirs.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Themadcow » September 20th, 2018, 4:26 am

Nystrom wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 12:30 pm
I also noted that positive reviews are also just as baseless as the negative ones. People playing under 20 hours frankly shouldn't be allowed to post reviews. Period. It's supposed to be a game review. A game you actually played.
If you played 20 hours, it probably means you enjoyed it - unless you're a masochist. The only people who need to have played near to that much are games journalists, because it's their job to play it regardless of enjoyment.

As I said before, I think the issue is with Steam calling them "Reviews" rather than "Player feedback".
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Crosmando » September 20th, 2018, 4:28 am

I just don't understand why they decided to go this route with BT4, with Wasteland 2 despite a number of changes they still kept the core character system (attributes, skills, classless, chargen at start, health system, world map with random encounters etc) in order to make the game close to Wasteland 1. With BT4, aside from being a first-person blobber, everything is different, they went with a simplified approach to attract new fans but at the same time it's still a turn-based dungeon-crawler RPG (which appeals to core RPG fans) so the appeal is limited, trying to appeal to everyone they ended up appealing to no-one.

Is this because Brian just gave the New Orleans team carte blanche, or was it intentional? If it's the latter then I fear for Wasteland 3.
Last edited by Crosmando on September 20th, 2018, 5:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Themadcow » September 20th, 2018, 4:32 am

Well, lets see how sales go. If they make decent money on it then it'll be seen as the right decision to ditch the old game-play mechanics, regardless of the opinion of us Grognards. If it is successful, then it might encourage someone to make something closer to BT1-3 / Wizardry, even if it doesn't carry the BT name. Unfortunately no-one wins if this game fails.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Lanatir » September 20th, 2018, 4:34 am

Well, we are now 2 days in after release, and Steam reviews are still in the low 40s. Now, when i am interested in a game i want to buy, i usually buy it at steam (as probably 80 to 90% of the people do, with the rest buying it on GOG), and if i see this red or orange writing in the game description i usually stay the hell away from it. Now, add to that that the game is nowhere to be seen on the lists on their front page (new, topseller, and so on), it is safe to assume that the game flopped. A steam game does not recover once it is going down that road. The 2 or 3 games who did had to make SIGNIFICANT efforts (No Mans Sky for example) to get the turnaround, and even then barely made it.

Funny enough...when you look at the ratings of the Bards Tale remasters, they have ratings in the high 90s, close to 100.

I hope INXILE learns their lessons, but i dont think they will.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Crosmando » September 20th, 2018, 4:35 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:32 am
Well, lets see how sales go. If they make decent money on it then it'll be seen as the right decision to ditch the old game-play mechanics, regardless of the opinion of us Grognards. If it is successful, then it might encourage someone to make something closer to BT1-3 / Wizardry, even if it doesn't carry the BT name. Unfortunately no-one wins if this game fails.
More like it'll be: If the game succeeds then it's because gamers want new-school design, if it fails it's because no one likes blobbers anymore. Either way we're screwed.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Lord of Riva » September 20th, 2018, 4:50 am

Crosmando wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:35 am
Themadcow wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:32 am
Well, lets see how sales go. If they make decent money on it then it'll be seen as the right decision to ditch the old game-play mechanics, regardless of the opinion of us Grognards. If it is successful, then it might encourage someone to make something closer to BT1-3 / Wizardry, even if it doesn't carry the BT name. Unfortunately no-one wins if this game fails.
More like it'll be: If the game succeeds then it's because gamers want new-school design, if it fails it's because no one likes blobbers anymore. Either way we're screwed.
exactly.
Funny enough...when you look at the ratings of the Bards Tale remasters, they have ratings in the high 90s, close to 100.
Thats because they look and play well. (An before someone ask, i have never played the old games there is no Nostalgia to be found here)

BT 4 doesn't look good at all, it seems stylistcally all over the place and while it plays mostly well there are lots of hiccups there as well. (Incorrect or no Animations on attacks, Sometimes trying to get the correct field in combat does not work, Units shuffling back and forth using up their opportunity for no effect, getting stuck on geometry all the time, the pacing is really, really slow at least in the beginning and more.)

Seriously some time in, it is enjoyable, i wouldn't rank it 4/10 but it is not what i would call a Dungeon Crawler. Kylearan's Tower is a good attempt though, i enjoyed it.

EDIT: Also just to mention the Music is easily 9/10 imho and its only so low because of the sometimes strangely placed people singing all over the place.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by eisberg » September 20th, 2018, 4:58 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 1:03 pm
Rock Paper Shotgun haven't done their review yet, but from the release news item I'd imagine it isn't going to be one of the better ones.

"As I mentioned, John has been playing The Bard’s Tale IV and not enjoying it, and he intends to do some of these here squiggly ‘word’ thingies tomorrow to tell us all about his discontent"
Positive or negative review from them, I wouldn't read it anyways and giving them clicks. I used to have a lot of respect for them till they decided to do bad journalism through lying and omitting the facts to further propaganda of a certain political agenda in relation to Jessica Price who used to work for Arenanet. Now I don't respect them anymore. Can't support that type of journalism.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Themadcow » September 20th, 2018, 5:10 am

Oh yeah, RPS loves a bit of virtue signalling - it's by far the worst part about the site. Never the less, they often come up with excellent articles and reviews that highlight valid issues which are ignored by other sites. I don't like Walker's politics, and don't agree with all of his reviews, but they're usually worth a read. I understand your ethical stance though - I don't read the London Evening Standard because it hired George Osborne as editor.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by Nystrom » September 20th, 2018, 5:57 am

Themadcow wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:26 am
Nystrom wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 12:30 pm
I also noted that positive reviews are also just as baseless as the negative ones. People playing under 20 hours frankly shouldn't be allowed to post reviews. Period. It's supposed to be a game review. A game you actually played.
If you played 20 hours, it probably means you enjoyed it - unless you're a masochist. The only people who need to have played near to that much are games journalists, because it's their job to play it regardless of enjoyment.

As I said before, I think the issue is with Steam calling them "Reviews" rather than "Player feedback".
That last comment I can get behind 100%.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV Reviews

Post by thebruce » September 20th, 2018, 6:16 am

Lord of Riva wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:15 am
The Reviews are there for possible customers to judge if the game should be purchased. If a great number of people cant play the game as its simply not working then the reviews are accurate. And people who are interested should know that the game will most likely not work with a specific set up.
Nah, I would classify that as a different type of review, as mentioned elsewhere. If I want to know "Will I enjoy this game?", I don't want to see ratings about "How easy is the game to install?" or "How were my dealings with the studio?""

Those are different (and legitimate) questions.
If I see a game review or a game rating, I have certain expectations. Maybe if that 41% overall rating was broken down into 20% rating from people who weren't able to play the game, and 80% rating from people who have played it more than 8 hours, that's more informative.

Crosmando wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:35 am
More like it'll be: If the game succeeds then it's because gamers want new-school design, if it fails it's because no one likes blobbers anymore. Either way we're screwed.
That is a fear I can see coming to fruition... =/

Lord of Riva wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:50 am
EDIT: Also just to mention the Music is easily 9/10 imho and its only so low because of the sometimes strangely placed people singing all over the place.
Agreed. Which is another point - yeah music is important, it's a bard's tale - but that doesn't mean the world is composed of people who love singing all the time everywhere. Just like drinking. Yeah bard's need wo 'whet their whistle', but it doesn't mean getting drunk is somehow empowering and as useful and practical as high-end professional specialized skills.

But the music is indeed beautiful.
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