Class rank ideas

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Crosmando
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Class rank ideas

Post by Crosmando » April 14th, 2017, 12:38 am

So in one of the KS updates Inxile mentioned that in BT4 classes would upgrade to more powerful, veteran versions of themselves as they levelled up, so I thought I'd put out some of my ideas for the already confirmed classes:

Squire > Warrior > Champion > General > Warlord
Cleric > Priest > Bishop > Archbishop > Cardinal
Minstril > Troubadour > Skald > Bard > Fili
Hunter > Forester > Ranger > Beast Master > Druid?
Acolyte > Brother > Monk > Chaplain > Saint
Knight > Crusader > Templar > Paladin > Grand Master
Thief > Rogue > Spy > Assassin > Shadow Master

I missed out the Magician/Conjurer as I expect they will also upgrade to Archmage. Also I "borrowed" a few from Devil Whiskey. Feel free to suggest your own ideas for class ranks.
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by thebruce » April 14th, 2017, 7:15 pm

The monk - I dunno, being such a fighter, I don't see Chaplain/Saint anything like the BT monk, who was akin to a martial artist with his fighting skills. May it'd be more like a tree in that chain where after Monk they would either focus on peacefulness/pacifism (the chaplain/saint idea), vs weaponless combat mastery. *shrug*
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by Drool » April 14th, 2017, 11:29 pm

Crosmando wrote:
April 14th, 2017, 12:38 am
Squire > Warrior > Champion > General > Warlord
Cleric > Priest > Bishop > Archbishop > Cardinal
I would prefer if job titles stayed away from political positions. Hard with the priest, but I don't think "out and about" when I see Cardinal. I see "political figure crunching numbers and waiting for the next Pope election".
Acolyte > Brother > Monk > Chaplain > Saint
Likewise, this feels odd. Of course, calling them Llamas would be even weirder...
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by Crosmando » April 15th, 2017, 4:47 am

thebruce wrote:
April 14th, 2017, 7:15 pm
The monk - I dunno, being such a fighter, I don't see Chaplain/Saint anything like the BT monk, who was akin to a martial artist with his fighting skills. May it'd be more like a tree in that chain where after Monk they would either focus on peacefulness/pacifism (the chaplain/saint idea), vs weaponless combat mastery. *shrug*
I think it's both, the monk is a member of an religious order and a martial artist, I imagine that the focus on meditation and asceticism would naturally aid his martial arts training (that's not to say that your idea of a branching path between religious monk and martial artist monk isn't a good idea). The reason monks don't wear armor etc is because they reject vain worldly possessions. Also Chaplain/Saint isn't neccessary a pacifist thing, history is full of military saints. The portrait of the monk in BT certainly seems to imply that we're talking about a religious monk:
Image
Drool wrote:
April 14th, 2017, 11:29 pm
I would prefer if job titles stayed away from political positions. Hard with the priest, but I don't think "out and about" when I see Cardinal. I see "political figure crunching numbers and waiting for the next Pope election".
Again though, I'm just going with the D&D/trad fantasy concept of a Cleric/Priest, they get their power from the god they worship, so obviously those higher up the hierarchy of clergy are "closer" to their god and thus can use more of his power. It's like if the Catholic/Christian God actively intervened into the affairs of mortals and communicated with his followers, you'd imagine that Bishops and so on would possess magic-like abilities.That's not to say that "lowly" people cannot be favored by a god of course.
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by ZZGO » April 15th, 2017, 12:23 pm

The question remains what exactly those ranks represent, besides level. The entire idea only makes sense (imho) if the "ranks" are new professions with new, different advantages and disadvantages over the old class. A bit like the changeover to Chronomancer or Geomancer. And there would have to be a real choice - the chance to switch a Warrior over to Champion class should be an option to be carefully considered, not a must; I'd expect remaining in the previous class to be a viable alternative.
By contrast, personally I don't care much if a Level 10 warrior is called a Level 10 Warrior or if he's suddenly called a Level 1 Champion.

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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » April 15th, 2017, 12:40 pm

I pretty much agree with that. I just don't feel very strongly about having class ranks in the game. Maybe they add flavor. If they were in the game, I would probably accept them (and mostly ignore them). I've played a number of Rogue-likes, which have had them, and found myself not really caring.
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by Drool » April 15th, 2017, 11:04 pm

Crosmando wrote:
April 15th, 2017, 4:47 am
Again though, I'm just going with the D&D/trad fantasy concept of a Cleric/Priest, they get their power from the god they worship, so obviously those higher up the hierarchy of clergy are "closer" to their god and thus can use more of his power.
Oh, I get it, but it would be like if there was a talky/diplomat class that had its upper levels being Mayor, Governor, Prime Minister or something like that. Titles like Cardinal and Warlord just make me think of people who don't go out an adventure and instead administrate. Perhaps instead of "political" I should have said "bureaucratic".
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by Crosmando » April 15th, 2017, 11:51 pm

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
April 15th, 2017, 12:40 pm
I pretty much agree with that. I just don't feel very strongly about having class ranks in the game. Maybe they add flavor. If they were in the game, I would probably accept them (and mostly ignore them). I've played a number of Rogue-likes, which have had them, and found myself not really caring.
Well, I created this thread because InXile said they were doing this, that's all.
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by Ether » April 16th, 2017, 1:22 am

ZZGO wrote:
April 15th, 2017, 12:23 pm
The question remains what exactly those ranks represent, besides level. The entire idea only makes sense (imho) if the "ranks" are new professions with new, different advantages and disadvantages over the old class. A bit like the changeover to Chronomancer or Geomancer. And there would have to be a real choice - the chance to switch a Warrior over to Champion class should be an option to be carefully considered, not a must; I'd expect remaining in the previous class to be a viable alternative.
By contrast, personally I don't care much if a Level 10 warrior is called a Level 10 Warrior or if he's suddenly called a Level 1 Champion.
If anything, the Level 1 Champion is worse because, at least in the originals, the saving throws were reset after a class change.

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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by ZZGO » April 16th, 2017, 2:49 am

Ether wrote:
April 16th, 2017, 1:22 am
If anything, the Level 1 Champion is worse because, at least in the originals, the saving throws were reset after a class change.
But at the same time, if my Level 21 Archmage (with three times as many hitpoints as my Level 42 Warrior) is anything to go by, unless the rank advancement cost table reflects the Champion being an advanced class, he'll burn through the first dozen level-ups in virtually no time. Like, going from level 1 up to level 5 literally after the first fight.
I suppose the game mechanics will be tidied up to account for some of the stranger aspects of the original trilogy though. ;)

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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by Drool » April 16th, 2017, 9:58 pm

I seem to recall Archmages needing quite a bit more XP to level than the base classes. And Geomancers were slower yet.
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Re: Class rank ideas

Post by thebruce » April 17th, 2017, 6:22 am

Crosmando wrote:
April 15th, 2017, 4:47 am
Chaplain/Saint isn't neccessary a pacifist thing, history is full of military saints. The portrait of the monk in BT certainly seems to imply that we're talking about a religious monk:
We can come up with endless examples of real-world people that could demonstrated millions of variants of many basic 'class' concepts and more... we're trying to reduce to a stereotypical few here :)

ZZGO wrote:
April 15th, 2017, 12:23 pm
The question remains what exactly those ranks represent, besides level. The entire idea only makes sense (imho) if the "ranks" are new professions with new, different advantages and disadvantages over the old class. A bit like the changeover to Chronomancer or Geomancer. And there would have to be a real choice - the chance to switch a Warrior over to Champion class should be an option to be carefully considered, not a must; I'd expect remaining in the previous class to be a viable alternative.
By contrast, personally I don't care much if a Level 10 warrior is called a Level 10 Warrior or if he's suddenly called a Level 1 Champion.
Right, if they're linear, they need to be improvements, and only improvements. If they're non-linear, or branching, then there needs to be a gain and a loss, a tradeoff. Chrono to Geo was a tradeoff. Spellcasters were branches (the only loss being not completing a branch though). If there's a loss in linear advancement, then imo it should really only be a loss of obsolete abilities. The gain outweighs and replaces the loss. Any additional loss is bound to the player's connection with the lost ability (which is a great gameplay mechanic in an analogous player-imagined world ;)) I don't want to lose my old rusty dagger just because now I can weild a shiny sword; the dagger is dear to me, been through so many battles, I've mastered its feel and weight. Ok, more like mastering a knife fighting skill, and beginning a short sword skill. ... well maybe not quite; you wouldn't forget how to weild a knife just because you started learning the sword :P

Although, as a martial artist myself (doing kung fu now 2 years), it certainly is easy to 'forget' old skills as you focus on new ones, to get lax in even the basics because you've moved on to more complex things (if you don't continue to train in the basics). So in theory, to provide the option of learning a new discipline, it certainly would be feasible to 'lose' something about your previous mastery.
I think I've seen that mechanic in a game before - was it Dragon Wars? Something like that - complete focus on a new [primary] skill, or having it as a secondary skill, which determined how much of a tradeoff there is in your focus and ability.

This mechanic (apart from spellcasters) wasn't a thing in the classics, but it looks like we're getting more complex skill trees in BT4 anyway.
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