i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by thebruce » January 22nd, 2018, 6:14 am

Lord of Riva wrote:
January 21st, 2018, 2:28 am
thebruce wrote:
January 20th, 2018, 3:42 pm
Lord of Riva wrote:
January 20th, 2018, 9:54 am
well while i cant say that you are wrong, i can say that the general idea can be done with a lot less than 400 enemies. ;)
Well you put the numbers there :). My point was the difference between high HP on one creature vs low hp on many certainly does have a dramatic effect on combat strategy. How many enemies is entirely arbitrary and subjective to the point. In this case, we're examining the possibility of MANY more enemies than implied is possible with the current setup. So we've yet to see if the engine can support that sort of high creature encounter in some form.
And my point was that it would be possible with actual enemies not abstracted ones. As you say the amount of enemies at this point is arbitrary.You could do what you propose with 2 , 3 or 400 Goblins but the fact remains that due to the abstraction the amount that cant be shown doesnt give any benefit and most likely will make it way harder to convey necessary information.
Oh sure, theoretically, they could plop 496 berserkers on that screen and we could fight them. But we haven't seen any indication that's the case - it's been literal 1-creature-per-spot, with some form of reinforcement as a special event mechanic. Will that turn into the ability for high-count combat encounters from very start? We've seen nothing pointing to that being the case or the intent. Again not that i'm looking for 496 berserkers specifically, but the strategic mechanic that's afforded by groups of creatures far outnumbering 8 or 10 individual enemies with potential 'boss' style reinforcements.
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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by NewlyObsessedFan » January 22nd, 2018, 7:57 am

Gizmo wrote:
January 20th, 2018, 2:52 pm
ZiN wrote:
January 20th, 2018, 9:33 am
Something like this would be pretty cool though:
https://i.imgur.com/UYl2Lnh.png
Image
That morphing image, is the later one an example of an actual game remastered, or is that like a mock-up of how a potential remaster might look?

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Gizmo » January 22nd, 2018, 8:01 am

NewlyObsessedFan wrote:
January 22nd, 2018, 7:57 am
That morphing image, is the later one an example of an actual game remastered, or is that like a mock-up of how a potential remaster might look?
It's purely a conceptual mock-up (including the text). It makes use of promotional BT series screenshots. It is not indicative of the remaster, aside from a bit of the stonework shown in the UI. The red headed character (and the first portrait, and UI shown) is from Bard's Tale 2; called the Sage.

The concept illustrates a (recognizable) evolution in a series; as opposed to having three unrelated games using the same IP; as sequels in name only.

___
Has anyone here seen Dawn of War's gameplay? (It's not unique, I know)
It has squads of melee, and ranged fighters, as well as mini-bosses. Each squad is effectively one unit, who's population loosely equates to the number of hitpoints in the unit. One can see it here: https://youtu.be/RUZsQ8tj1k4?t=3m2s

There are only a few units shown on the screen... but each unit is comprised of several soldiers, or a mini-boss. They are effectively stacks—but you see all of the the individuals.

*It's noteworthy that no squad can target a particular enemy squad member in DoW. Squads take damage as a whole, and one member drops dead when the squad takes enough damage to lose one. *Mini-boss units can grab an enemy squad member for a critical attack/ death scene; but it's just a one-hit kill with a different death animation.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by thebruce » January 22nd, 2018, 11:00 am

Squads take damage as a whole, and one member drops dead when the squad takes enough damage to lose one.
It's this way as well in some table tops, easier than managing "realistic" attacks from one character to a group. Let the system just assume that effectively the 'weakest' one is always the one to be hit first, thus 100 creatures of 10 HP each would lose 2 creatures if a group attack damaged with 25 points. If the attack was a single strike (1 foe) then 1 enemy would be killed (since 25 > 10, or whatever leftover HP existed). etc. So that's a simple mechanic.

The classics didn't have single-attack-to-group style combat, spells were either 1 foe or 1+ groups, and melee attacks never killed more than 1 enemy, unless indicated that a a weapon effect was a group attack. If a foe attack was insufficient for a kill, I believe that's where the leftover HP came into play.

eg I believe this is how the classics handled group dynamics:
Face 5 foes at 10 HP each: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10
1-foe attack for 12 leaves 10, 10, 10, 10, 0 (killed)
1-foe attack for 6 leaves 10, 10, 10, 4
1-group attack for 7 each (or now 4 attacks by 7 pts) =
10, 10, 7, 0 (killed)
10, 10, 0 (killed)
10, 3
6, 0 (killed)
1-foe attack for 9: group eradicated
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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Bladesinger » February 16th, 2018, 11:14 pm

Personally I think they have got no reason not to advertise the hell out of this game.

As long as they dont turn the spotlight on the theme of Comedic relief. We all want a cool Bards Tale Sequal not a 'Village Idiot' comedy routine that aggravates from the game play.

Sure a big button (Get the bard to tell a joke) sure thats reasonable.

But forcing a comedic overlay would damage my memories for all time.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by demeisen » February 19th, 2018, 6:11 pm

thebruce wrote:
January 22nd, 2018, 6:14 am
Oh sure, theoretically, they could plop 496 berserkers on that screen and we could fight them. But we haven't seen any indication that's the case - it's been literal 1-creature-per-spot, with some form of reinforcement as a special event mechanic. ... Again not that i'm looking for 496 berserkers specifically, but the strategic mechanic that's afforded by groups of creatures far outnumbering 8 or 10 individual enemies with potential 'boss' style reinforcements.
I'd like that mechanic too. My guess is we won't get anything like that in BT4, but who knows, if it sees enough commercial success to allow for a BT5, then maybe it could be an enhancement for next time. I don't think it's necessarily incompatible with a more tactical style combat system such as they've been talking about. It would require balance around enemies being groups thereof, of course. I could see something like that being really fun. I wouldn't be bothered by the abstraction of a single graphical creature standing in for a group. That's what BT1 had too: you saw a picture of a kobold, which might represent 6 kobolds. The new system would introduce a positional aspect which wasn't present in the originals and could lead to more tactically interesting combat. I'd be all about that, if it was done well.

It's also why I very much hope BT4 will be profitable for InXile: then we might see some interesting enhancements down the road. BT4 doesn't have to be perfect for me: if it's decently fun, which I expect it will be (and stays away from slapstick - just in case InXile hasn't heard that enough :lol:) then I'll happily back a BT5 if they do one. I'm in for the long haul to support interesting projects that aren't FPSRPGs.

Editing to add: didn't the King's Bounty series also do something like this? Been a while, but if I recall right it had graphical creatures, with a little number next to them to indicate group size.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by thebruce » February 20th, 2018, 6:06 am

My guess is we won't get anything like that in BT4, but who knows, if it sees enough commercial success to allow for a BT5, then maybe it could be an enhancement for next time.... I wouldn't be bothered by the abstraction of a single graphical creature standing in for a group. That's what BT1 had too: you saw a picture of a kobold, which might represent 6 kobolds.
Nor would I, but yeah it's unlikely we'll get that since the visual mechanic of BT4 seems to be much more literal, and seeing one creature in a physically occupied space the way they are would be 'weird' if you knock down one and 99 more are still in place. It goes back to that whole subject of literal vs abstract and the benefits and drawbacks of both. 1-3 were all abstracted, with BT4's focus on much more prettied up environments for exploration the space has been more literal, and especially with 3D creatures within that literal space, I fear that represetational combat is simply completely off the table, and the best we get as the workaround of having new creatures pop into play various ways (running around corners, exploding from other creatures, being summoned, etc) which by nature precludes having the epic scale horde battles of olde. *weeps*
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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Woolfe » February 20th, 2018, 6:16 am

Actually it could work, but in a only x number of mobs are able to come into contact with you type thing. So once a position is freed it immediately gets filled by the next mob in the list.

It could add an element of urgency to battles. Reinforcements might turn up in X time so if battle turn Y = x then add the additional mobs.
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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Gizmo » February 20th, 2018, 7:50 am

How about X number of mob-unit-members can fit in one slot (with the rest scattered nearby), and as they get killed off, more from the mob make their way into the slot; until the mob is eliminated? (But only one mob can occupy one slot at a time.)

*Possibly, that area effect attacks can only affect the max number of enemies in one slot, or perhaps a change, and that they effect adjacent areas that have some of the targeted mob in it, or even just anything in the area; regardless of which mob they are part of.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by demeisen » February 20th, 2018, 10:51 am

thebruce wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 6:06 am
and seeing one creature in a physically occupied space the way they are would be 'weird' if you knock down one and 99 more are still in place.*
I dunno. King's Bounty made it work, and it didn't seem weird. There was just a number next to the creature indicating how many were in that spot, but you just saw the 3D model for one of them. It was a combination of numerically abstract and positionally representative, which I think BT5 could pull off.

Image

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by thebruce » February 20th, 2018, 11:02 am

Hey I'd totally be up for having that mechanic in BT4 :) I just meant it might be sufficient 'weird' that it won't be considered as an option for BT4. If they do make the mob mechanic to allow for that size of combat, I will cheer. (as that opens the door for a theoretical 4x99 berserker classic encounter)
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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by paultakeda » February 20th, 2018, 11:30 am

thebruce wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 11:02 am
(as that opens the door for a theoretical 4x99 berserker classic encounter)
This is all I paid attention to in your post because it is all I have ever wanted. :D

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by demeisen » February 20th, 2018, 2:17 pm

thebruce wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 11:02 am
Hey I'd totally be up for having that mechanic in BT4 :) I
Yeah, me too. My hope on that front rests on BT5. BT4 for them to get their feet back on the ground, create all the new infrastructure, develop the in-house processes needed, etc. Then once they've got something firmly in hand, they can expand it in interesting ways.

Of course I have no insight whatsoever into what they're thinking about for the series, such as whether BT4 is a one-off, or whether they'll do a BT5 if BT4 is profitable, or what. But one can hope.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by phimseto » February 20th, 2018, 2:42 pm

I love Bard's Tale V references. It seems so future-y (and optimistic)! As fascinating as it has been to consider and design in elements of the original trilogy, the conversation should be even more robust between IV and V after people have had a chance to play the new game and consider how they'd like things tweaked/changed going forward. Of course, it would be a long road to a Bard's Tale V, but that doesn't stop us from at least having the conversation. Bard's Tale IV's release date will be upon us soon enough!

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Gizmo » February 21st, 2018, 10:33 am

phimseto wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 2:42 pm
I love Bard's Tale V references.
Indeed. Next time the mobs could exist as larger (than one cell/or slot) entities, that funnel into the slot (as their action for that turn); replenishing the ranks until the entire mob is defeated. With the Party—like Spartans fighting off a legion, in a bottle-neck.
Image
(It's Better than having only a couple, and better than floating numbers, IMO.)

Is this not a possible change to BT4 as it presently exists?

*Though I can guess that the mechanics are likely now, (and possibly long since) locked at this stage.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Dork Mage » February 21st, 2018, 5:17 pm

Gizmo wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 10:33 am
Is this not a possible change to BT4 as it presently exists?

*Though I can guess that the mechanics are likely now, (and possibly long since) locked at this stage.
Which makes Alpha and Beta a moot point....

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Serjo » February 22nd, 2018, 12:01 am

Dork Mage wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 5:17 pm
Gizmo wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 10:33 am
Is this not a possible change to BT4 as it presently exists?

*Though I can guess that the mechanics are likely now, (and possibly long since) locked at this stage.
Which makes Alpha and Beta a moot point....
No, the design will still be highly flexible during the alpha and beta stages:
Built for and with the help of our fans. Your feedback and input directly impact the design and features of the game during alpha and beta stages.
If Alpha is in April and the game releases in July or August, that leaves more than enough time for a systems overhaul.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Gizmo » February 22nd, 2018, 8:00 am

So it's not yet in Beta? I had assumed that with the release of gameplay video, that it must have surely left the alpha stage. Bethesda got burned for premature examples of their touted AI—that they were forced to pair down for the final release. I'd have thought that anything released in video would have been locked in, as a preemptive defense.

This sounds like good news if things are still open to re-imagining, or for user suggested tweaks to the mechanics.
"Alpha and beta stages", they say. 8-) 8-)
Last edited by Gizmo on February 23rd, 2018, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Serjo » February 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am

This is what we got for $105 on the Kickstarter:
access to an early ALPHA SYSTEMS TEST to let you try out and give feedback on the game's combat and spell systems as we develop the game.
That certainly sounds like the mechanics will still be open to changes when the alpha is released.

The time for "just letting people check out the game" will be during the public beta, which should be launched in the 2-4 months between the start of the alpha test and final release.

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Re: i'm slightly surprised how little BT4 talk the internet has.

Post by Gizmo » February 22nd, 2018, 1:46 pm

Well then... :twisted:

Something I like about King's Bounty, is that the game grid is somewhat re-orientable; and this is useful in just the same way as it is for in a computer Chess game. The Witcher, Dungeonkeeper, and Nocturne (by Terminal Reality) each had alternative camera options. It allowed the player to get a better sense of the scene. Such a camera need not actually allow movement or changes to the game world while in use. Both Grimrock games, for instance, allow 360° turning of the camera, for a better view... but not while moving, fighting, or interacting with objects.

If this were available in BT4, I would appreciate (and likely use) the optional views from secondary cameras... especially in combat.

Perhaps it's still possible to do something like the following:

Image

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