long vs. short term resources in BT4

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_noblesse_oblige_
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Re: long vs. short term resources in BT4

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » April 13th, 2017, 5:08 pm

rakenan wrote:
April 12th, 2017, 6:33 pm
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
April 12th, 2017, 5:18 pm

The AC bonus from The Traveller's Tune would improve every few of dungeon levels, as would the light from The Seeker's Ballad. Also, the effects from some songs would stack in combat, iirc. You could really wind up your melee combatants with a few successive playings of Falkentyne's Fury. Also, when exploring a light negation zone on platforms that didn't display the "Darkness!" message (ahem, Macintosh), being able to cast unlimited light spells was a good way of determining the extent of the darkness region.
I didn't intend to claim that Bard songs were worthless. Only that they were nowhere near enough to make you Bard's primary function anything other than "Stand in front of your mages so they don't get gibbed in melee."
For sure, there were some balance issues and I largely agree that mages were more useful overall by about the middle of the first game onward. That's usually about the time the armor was good enough that I could move the bard into a melee spot and expect him to survive. At that point, I used him as a meat shield who could unlimited cast spells. For long combats, where it was safe to save spell points, playing some buffs for a few rounds before joining the fray worked great.

And, regarding balance issues, I would rather see them fixed than to have the entire original class system thrown out and replaced with something else.
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Re: long vs. short term resources in BT4

Post by Ether » April 13th, 2017, 9:36 pm

rakenan wrote:
April 13th, 2017, 7:04 am

Thought experiment: consider beating BT3 without any Bards. Now consider beating BT3 without any mages. Ignore puzzles that strictly require one or the other. I'm quite sure which will be easier, by an enormous margin. And BT3 was the entry in the series with the *BEST* balance between mages and Bards. As you point out, Trebuchet every round for free or nearly free is finally something worth bringing a Bard for. But it's only worthwhile because it transforms your Bard into a weak but high endurance mage who can wear good armor and thus survive on the front lines where your mages will be killed. He can thus displace a more traditional fighter type, but he's no competition for an actual mage, and is arguably inferior to bringing an extra Geomancer.
Mages tend to be the strongest class in most of these games, or at least the ones I've played.
I mean, the main villain usually ends up bring some sort of mad wizard.

Keep in mind, though, that it's not feasable for mages to cast Nuke every single battle.

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Re: long vs. short term resources in BT4

Post by Drool » April 13th, 2017, 11:20 pm

rakenan wrote:
April 13th, 2017, 7:04 am
Thought experiment: consider beating BT3 without any Bards. Now consider beating BT3 without any mages. Ignore puzzles that strictly require one or the other.
Well... if we kept our mages a 0 SpPts...

I dunno. You're kinda in a bad place either way when in Malefia. Not having Sir Robin's vs not having EAMA?

Yes, EAMA. NUKE is a cute toy, but the Geomancer does the heavy lifting in the endgame.
But it's only worthwhile because it transforms your Bard into a weak but high endurance mage who can wear good armor and thus survive on the front lines where your mages will be killed.
Actually, properly equipped, he's pulling his weight for the whole game. Early in the game, he's keeping you alive with Bard songs as a third mage. Once you hit Arboria, he's dropping NILA left and right thanks to the Nightspear.

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
April 13th, 2017, 5:08 pm
And, regarding balance issues, I would rather see them fixed than to have the entire original class system thrown out and replaced with something else.
Of course.
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