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Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 2nd, 2017, 6:48 am
by thebruce
DukeKingston wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 12:47 am
Whow, this thread has spawned two additional pages since I last checked in. I'm trying to keep up. There are some really grate notes in here.

One thing I wanted to clarify, which was a little off topic, was the fear of having to weight for ability animations to complete in order to proceed in combat. We have an event queuing system in place to fix this exact problem. You can input commands as fast as you please and the results are calculated instantly. The attack animations play out in string of ability "performances" that are disconnected from what inputs you've given the combat system. With each attack tending to resolve in under 2 seconds, with only a few exceptions, I find myself never that much further ahead than the animations, if at all. Since every combat is a little different, I naturally find myself spending a second between each input anyways, thinking out my next few moves and planning combos. We're constantly trying to tighten up un-necessarily long performances when we find them. It's been falling pretty tight so far, and getting tighter.

Even with that system in place, I still think the desire for a combat animation fast-forward or skipping system is well founded.
Thanks for the comment, encouraging; just wanted to address the bold.
In the classics, as I'm sure you're aware, one attack could take 1/10 of a second or less ;) Recall, "Faster...Faster...Faster...Faster...Faster...Faster...Faster..." :lol:

My combat when crawling was generally read like:
"Before you stands 2 Band--"
F-A-A-A-A-D-D-D-Y
Space-Space-Space-Space-Space-Space
F-A-A-A-A-D-D-D-Y
Space-Space-Space
T-7-Space
Continue on thy merry way...!
Most combats can be resolved in about 2 seconds :mrgreen:

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 2nd, 2017, 6:06 pm
by Lucius
thebruce wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 6:48 am
Most combats can be resolved in about 2 seconds :mrgreen:
Not on a C64 it couldn't. Doubt it could on any of the original platforms. In fact, it was painfully slow in hindsight, some fights taking numerous minutes to resolve, not seconds. My point is that statement is pretty much pointless. Of course a game that is over 30 years old, being played on a modern machine, actions can be processed in seconds. The game's combat consists of simple, single step, command entries, a picture, and math. Every enemy was exactly the same essentially. Every damage was the same. What's been presented so far is a deeper system which, hopefully, requires more thought than attack, attack, attack, cast XXXX, attack, go. Your statement may not be entirely serious (I sure hope not O.o) but you are comparing apples and oranges with that.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 2nd, 2017, 7:40 pm
by thebruce
Well, first, I was exaggerating.
And second, I played BT1-3 on DOS and Amiga, and they did take much much shorter than the video. Read my example combat without pausing, and that's about as fast as most quick combats progressed when I played.
So yes, I was serious about the speed, while exaggerating about the "2 seconds" (which is clearly untrue).

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 2nd, 2017, 9:24 pm
by Drool
Lucius wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 6:06 pm
Not on a C64 it couldn't.
Sure it could. You could speed up the text to unreadable speeds pretty easily. At least, in BT3 you could.
Gizmo wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 1:08 am
Everything should come with a cost and effect.
The hypothetical already had a cost. I mean, you know what a HIRELING is, right? You're already paying them. For most of us, that already is a cost. Randomly adding on AI theft is just pointlessly being a dick to the player.

Honestly, the more I read, the more it feels like you feel the player should be brutally punished for daring to play the game. Do your mods for Grimrock delete the player's hard drive if they die? Perhaps send an electrical surge to burn their house down?

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 2nd, 2017, 9:51 pm
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:24 pm
Honestly, the more I read, the more it feels like you feel the player should be brutally punished for daring to play the game. Do your mods for Grimrock delete the player's hard drive if they die? Perhaps send an electrical surge to burn their house down?
So if you were playing a game like Witcher [more or less], and the PC strikes a deal with a tavern lout to fleece the deceased in a few rooms upstairs... To you it would not seem naive of the PC to put blind faith in a mercenary stranger for hire (with no qualms against to robbing the dead before the city watch shows up)? It wouldn't seem incredulous if the hireling never tried to keep anything back?

*That is example of what breaks suspension of disbelief for me. One wouldn't likely find a hireling that would do that job, but with the moral/ethics to be honest about it. They probably exist, but what are the odds that the PC finds such a one?

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 3rd, 2017, 9:46 pm
by Drool
Gizmo wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:51 pm
So if you were playing a game like Witcher [more or less], and the PC strikes a deal with a tavern lout to fleece the deceased in a few rooms upstairs... To you it would not seem naive of the PC to put blind faith in a mercenary stranger for hire (with no qualms against to robbing the dead before the city watch shows up)? It wouldn't seem incredulous if the hireling never tried to keep anything back?
It's an abstraction. And you're paying the hireling. The hireling wouldn't be getting anything if the party hadn't hired them. And running around behind a group of toughs picking up money is far easier than being on a vanguard.

But, sure. Let's add another cost. Borrow from Torchlight and put a timer on them running to town and back.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: June 5th, 2017, 4:52 pm
by GoonieOfDoom
im sure most every true bards tale fan.. of the original series from the 80s.. would say.. the art from the map that was inside the box cover.. that would be my vote.. mixed with that art that shows the ruins under skara brae. in that newer art for bards tale 4.. should run that thru entire game.. books an all.. sets the mood perfectly . mood as in a serious dungeon crawler an one to respect and appreciate.. not another humorous type like that bt game from 2004.. bleh.. to be taken serious.. be serious... thx

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: June 5th, 2017, 7:26 pm
by thebruce
Good point, the artwork in the game manual and content really set a mood for a serious dungeon crawler; good mystery, fantasy... definitely no comedic ambiance given by the art direction. In the classics the only humour really was in some of the easter eggs. So it comes back again to BT4's 'feel', and that it's hopefully more like BT1-3 than BT2004's spoof.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: June 6th, 2017, 5:28 am
by ZiN
The box-art imagery on the classics are fascinating and perhaps could somehow be incorporated into the game:
Image

I find the "world map" of BT3 quite charming as well:
Image

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: June 6th, 2017, 5:59 am
by Crosmando
I like it because it's small scale and you can see details of what the locations are actually like, somewhat like the Might & Magic maps.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: June 6th, 2017, 7:36 am
by demeisen
thebruce wrote:
June 5th, 2017, 7:26 pm
definitely no comedic ambiance given by the art direction. In the classics the only humour really was in some of the easter eggs. ... it's hopefully more like BT1-3 than BT2004's spoof.
^^ Bears repeating. I disliked the flippant voiced lines in the recent demo videos, for example. I hope the final game will have a tone befitting a more serious dungeon crawler, from GUI and art style, to voice work, to general in-game ambiance. Occasional dry humor can augment that, but should be used judiciously. If the overall package ends up with a silly vibe, that's a bit off-putting. I never even bought the 2004 game, though I was aware of it at the time. I backed BT4 largely due to seeing that the original KS demo video moved back towards the tone of the originals.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: June 6th, 2017, 11:03 am
by Gizmo
demeisen wrote:
June 6th, 2017, 7:36 am
I hope the final game will have a tone befitting a more serious dungeon crawler, from GUI and art style, to voice work, to general in-game ambiance.
That ^^ bears repeating as well.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: July 8th, 2017, 9:02 am
by Loveblanket
So I registered just to comment here. I'm looking forward to Bard's Tale 4, but the interface is hideous. It looks like someone took a beautiful painting of a world and then slapped a bad 1980's Saturday morning cartoon over it. Lords of Xulima's combat interface would be a better example, or pull back and show our characters on the battlefield, though it may be too late for that in terms of development. The current interface looks completely out of place with the rest of the game, from the tron like grid lines to the characters looking like they are from the old D&D cartoon. At least give us much better looking, preferably 3D modeled, characters and make the grid lines sort of just small whisps of smoke. I know it seems like a petty thing to nitpick, but combat is the primary activity in almost all rpg's so we will be looking at this constantly and it's so bad it's the difference between a buy and a wait for massive sale or just passing by. It looks like a photoshop of two completely different games. Sorry, I know someone designed that and loves it, they're just wrong and I'm just trying to give honest feedback. It's brings the beautiful world design down. The best interface is one that you don't notice and fits seamlessly into the game world and this ain't it.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: January 20th, 2018, 2:48 am
by Orpheus the Bard
ZiN wrote:
June 6th, 2017, 5:28 am
The box-art imagery on the classics are fascinating and perhaps could somehow be incorporated into the game:
Image

I find the "world map" of BT3 quite charming as well:
Image
Thats the map I was talking about. Notice how the tavern and the shrine are on opposite sides, but really they are on amuch shorter path togther ;)

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: January 20th, 2018, 6:37 am
by ZiN
Yeah, definitely the first shortcut to remember in BT3. Then of course they have used wrap-around maps very cleverly and should I say deviously in all 3 BTs. Getting PHDO for the first time was fun, but then it required very precise exploration to find the right wall, then phase and warp through to a new, unexplored area. But that's another discussion.

OT, I agree with Loveblanket, the last shown BT4 interface is hideous and is my least favorite style for RPG menus.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: January 26th, 2018, 1:24 pm
by Gizmo
ZiN wrote:
January 20th, 2018, 6:37 am
OT, I agree with Loveblanket, the last shown BT4 interface is hideous and is my least favorite style for RPG menus.
It does remind me of Stormfront's Pool of Radiance 2 UI, in some respects.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: April 16th, 2018, 11:57 pm
by Jademonk
Ranger1 wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 4:08 pm
I like stone menus and full screen interfaces. Windows everywhere make me switch off. I support paperdolls like those in Might and Magic for inventory.

Just thinking about the loot problem of endless piles of halberds and rusty armours.

I ask myself why can't we hire ragpickers in game to collect all the non-special equipment and give the party coin in return? After every battle the ragpicker could get 5% of the value of the loot and give the party remaining coin value of the loot. The party could nominate which items to sell automatically by tagging them junk. They could accompany the party as a follower like in the Might and Magic games.

A ragpicker would be essential during long dungeon crawls and reduce the need for shopkeepers to appear unexpectedly in the middle of a dungeon.
Or maybe we could at least have an option to stop picking up items we no longer want.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: April 16th, 2018, 11:59 pm
by Jademonk
demeisen wrote:
June 6th, 2017, 7:36 am
thebruce wrote:
June 5th, 2017, 7:26 pm
definitely no comedic ambiance given by the art direction. In the classics the only humour really was in some of the easter eggs. ... it's hopefully more like BT1-3 than BT2004's spoof.
^^ Bears repeating. I disliked the flippant voiced lines in the recent demo videos, for example. I hope the final game will have a tone befitting a more serious dungeon crawler, from GUI and art style, to voice work, to general in-game ambiance. Occasional dry humor can augment that, but should be used judiciously. If the overall package ends up with a silly vibe, that's a bit off-putting. I never even bought the 2004 game, though I was aware of it at the time. I backed BT4 largely due to seeing that the original KS demo video moved back towards the tone of the originals.
Agreed. Keep it serious.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 27th, 2018, 8:44 am
by Horrorscope
For TB games in the Wiz8 mold, the only major thing that is a pain in Wiz8 by the way. Is you want the fewest clicks possible to make your combat move for each character. So ideally as each character has their TB moment, the UI will display all their possible actions on screen, one click to choose and perhaps one to point and done. Keep it quick, that to me is the secret behind keeping TB fun, make the UI elegant so fast clicking moves it along, in most fights your mind can be move(s) ahead, the UI insetting in the way, slowing things down is a drag to me.

Re: What's your favorite art style for RPG Menus?

Posted: May 27th, 2018, 2:26 pm
by Gizmo
Welcome to the forum. 8-)
Horrorscope wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 8:44 am
Keep it quick, that to me is the secret behind keeping TB fun, make the UI elegant so fast clicking moves it along, in most fights your mind can be move(s) ahead, the UI insetting in the way, slowing things down is a drag to me.
This bears no notice or affect with me in most games; least of all the intention for fast clicking. The point of turn based mechanics is to segment time for illustrative purpose; so that the events can be inspected by the player, and no details missed; also... it can be to allow (time) for more complicated (selection of) actions... options that can't really be picked (from among the many) in realtime. And also to allow the player to play a few moves ahead—in their head. The player should have a full awareness of the events that precede their actions in the round; so that their choice can take those actions into account.

All that matters (to me) is that the options are there to be chosen, and they can use as many clicks as necessary to impart the precise control intended by the player. In Fallout, and aimed-shot option existed, and it could take up to three clicks to complete; (selecting the optional attack mode, selecting the the target, and selecting the location on the target). The option for placing bombs existed, (selecting Inventory, select to configure the bomb, set the timer, select to drop the bomb; ideally, spend APs moving away from the bomb in the next turn).