Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

For all Bard's Tale IV discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Drool » September 18th, 2015, 12:07 pm

Ether wrote:One question: Are controllers on PC's standardized?
Eh.

I have three gamepads for my PC. One has the same basic layout and number of buttons as an old Super Nintendo controller. One is like that but with 6 "action" buttons instead of 4, and with turbo functionality. The third one is an XBox 360 controller with a USB plug. Any one of them would work with most any game, unless they crippled the remapping functions.
IHaveHugeNick wrote:Back then, PC was so complex to use, it would scare away 99% of people who nowadays think they're tech wizards, because they can launch a game on Steam with two click and change bunch of settings. So perhaps meditate on that for a minute, before slinging random claims about console users being "scared of complexity". :roll:
Mmm... reconfiguring your autoexec.bat file depending on if you were using your CD-ROM or not. And shifting things around to available COM ports and memory blocks. Good times. Good times.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Jordan Joestar » September 18th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Lucius wrote:
Jordan Joestar wrote:Mh... This kind of games are not for console nor for console gamers.
Says who? You? A first person RPG plays really well with a controller, far better than an isometric RPG. It's highly likely that this game can play very well on consoles at some point. Let me say this, the playstyle, such as control scheme etc, is a better fit for consoles compared to Wasteland 2. No?
The problem isn't the controller but how plays on console. Do you really think that console gamer can appreciate these kind of games? In my opinion only few gamers will play a dungeon crawler on console.

We see a renaissance of RPGs thanks to computer gamers, young and old. How can a young console gamer know and like isometric RPGs or dungeon crawler? All my console gamers friends plays only CoD, BF and the last "30 fps cinematographic game with black bars, quick time events and a guided gameplay throgh corridors".

Don't take offence, it's my opinion, but when you see many friends playing only on console without knowledge about old and new games, but who plays only the most famous titles, well, it's very hard to imagine a great number of sales on console.
Try to get a hit by selling certain types of games on consoles it's like to try to become rich by selling beer in Saudi Arabia. :lol:
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Drool » September 18th, 2015, 12:50 pm

Jordan Joestar wrote:In my opinion only few gamers will play a dungeon crawler on console.
Which is why Bloodborne has been an abject failure, eh?
Don't take offence, it's my opinion, but when you see many friends playing only on console without knowledge about old and new games, but who plays only the most famous titles, well, it's very hard to imagine a great number of sales on console.
Get older friends? All my gamer friends play on PC and console. I mean, you know you're allowed to own both, right?
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Jordan Joestar » September 18th, 2015, 2:02 pm

Drool wrote:Which is why Bloodborne has been an abject failure, eh?
The only good game on PS4, at the moment. However, Bloodborne is an exclusive and Sony do a lot of marketing, so it's normal that sold lots of copies. Also, it is an action-RPG and not a dungeon crawler and thinking for many minutes for solve a puzzle isn't for every player.
As many console gamers friends said to me, when I tried to explain how beautiful are Legend Of Grimrock I and II: "I want turn on my console and shot other people. I don't want use my brain."
When you listen this and after you read the same words online it's normal to think: "How can The Bard's Tale IV works on console?!"
Drool wrote:Get older friends? All my gamer friends play on PC and console. I mean, you know you're allowed to own both, right?
I have only friends who plays on PC (like me) and other who plays only on consoles. Many of them in the last years give up with consoles and now have high end PC, but those how plays yet on console are like ISIS terrorists... if you say "2560x1440 resolution", "60+ fps", "Star Citizen" or "Kickstarter" for them these words are blasphemous. :lol:
I stopped to follow videogames web magazine because sre full of console gamers and when you read a news about PC gaming they start console war and write post full of envy and hate. Probably this level of stupidity is an exclusive of my country...

I played on console for 2/3 of my life and when my parents bought my first PC I discovered a new world. From 2007 I play only on PC and in my opinion after PS2 there's no console that deserves my money (maybe WiiU; WiiU and PC it's a perfect combo).
Dreamcast was a very innovative and techonologically advanced console for its time; these "next-gen" consoles are only "old-gen 2.0" and run games like 5 years old PCs. Ok, graphic isn't the most important thing on a game but damn, we are at the end of 2015!
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Ether » September 19th, 2015, 10:47 am

1. I would say at it's core, a dungeon crawler isn't that much different from any game with an open world environment. Whether it's Bard's Tale, Batman, Witcher, or even a game like Halo, you are moving around, exploring the area and world.
Biggest difference is the levels in the BT are mostly abstract, and there is no environmental influence on combat.

2. There are quite few puzzles in the console games also.

3. A lot of Bard's Tale combat wasn't exactly thought-provoking either.
The difference in combat is, in BT you tell the character to attack (compared to you pressing the button to swing a sword), and you don't get to watch the actual enemy die.

I don't think a console will be too underpowered to handle the game. The biggest issue the Bard's Tale would have on a console, IMO, would be having to manually key in puzzle answers over and over again due to the lack of a keyboard.

While I agree some people would balk at the game - my brother balked at it 30 years ago, and still would now - there are certainly plenty of console players that don't fit your stereotype and I think would enjoy the game, provided of course that it is done well. I certainly don't think that it would have to be completely scaled down for it to appeal to console audiences.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Drool » September 19th, 2015, 12:31 pm

Jordan Joestar wrote:Also, it is an action-RPG and not a dungeon crawler and thinking for many minutes for solve a puzzle isn't for every player.
You're moving the goal posts while splitting hairs here. Besides, pretty much every single boss fight in Bloodborne -- just like in Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and Dark Souls 2 -- is essentially a giant puzzle. That production house has made a mint creating unforgiving games that demand thought, and they were all aimed squarely at the console market. Dark Souls is all but unplayable using keyboard + mouse. Claiming console users are incapable of being able to think and are just ADD-riddled manchildren flies in the face of direct evidence like the smash success of Bloodborne.
Jordan Joestar wrote:"I want turn on my console and shot other people. I don't want use my brain."
There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, there are times where I do that. Why do you think I have a copy of the original Rise of the Triad sitting around? So I can fire it up, turn on all the cheat codes, and just giggle as I blow Nazis into little pieces.

Sometimes you just want to read trashy pulp. You don't always have to be reading Saul Bellow.
Jordan Joestar wrote:Many of them in the last years give up with consoles and now have high end PC, but those how plays yet on console are like ISIS terrorists... if you say "2560x1440 resolution", "60+ fps", "Star Citizen" or "Kickstarter" for them these words are blasphemous.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, so I'm going to assume it's just more running down of people playing on a console.
Jordan Joestar wrote:when you read a news about PC gaming they start console war and write post full of envy and hate. Probably this level of stupidity is an exclusive of my country...
Mote. Beam.
Jordan Joestar wrote:I played on console for 2/3 of my life and when my parents bought my first PC I discovered a new world.
There's no fanatic like a converted fanatic.
Ether wrote:1. I would say at it's core, a dungeon crawler isn't that much different from any game with an open world environment.
Well, there is a difference, even if it's somewhat minor and mostly aesthetic. While both are about exploration, dungeon crawlers tend to be more grindy (since it's more about levels and power than story) and crawlers tend to focus more on endurance. With a true open world game, you can trot off to a town or shop to restore and most any time. In dungeon crawlers, you're generally in the middle of a... well... dungeon, and you would have to then fight your way back out.
Ether wrote:Biggest difference is the levels in the BT are mostly abstract, and there is no environmental influence on combat.
Again, not quite. If you're in a magic or hitpoint draining square when the fight starts...
Ether wrote:3. A lot of Bard's Tale combat wasn't exactly thought-provoking either.
AAAADDD
AAAADDD
AAAADDD
AAAADDD

Yup. Can't imagine a console being able to manage that!
Ether wrote:I don't think a console will be too underpowered to handle the game. The biggest issue the Bard's Tale would have on a console, IMO, would be having to manually key in puzzle answers over and over again due to the lack of a keyboard.
BT4 is going to be using Unreal. Both the XBoxOne and PS4 are certified for Unreal 4 (via DirectX and OpenGL respectively). Hell, Windows XP can run Unreal 4 via OpenGL.

Frankly BT4 is better suited for console than Wasteland 2 is, and they've already ported WL2. A first-person exploration game? You'll have buttons left over. As for the keyboard, that's not really an issue. I have a keyboard like that for my 360, and it works just fine.
Ether wrote:I certainly don't think that it would have to be completely scaled down for it to appeal to console audiences.
Again, they managed to port over WL2. Of course, this is all cart before horse. Regardless of any future plans, it will be designed, written, and built with the PC in mind. If they decide to port, it'll be something that's worked on after the game is released for PC.

Which is fine by me. Personally, I wouldn't want to play WL2 on console, but if it means more sales and more money for inXile to pump into Torment and BT4, I'm not going to complain. Frankly, as long as (Console Version Sales = Cost of Porting + $1), it's good enough.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Yokohamalama » September 20th, 2015, 3:23 am

Dear inXile producers and community,

Regarding full commitment... here is my suggestion: if BT4 cannot get full commitment, please cut the length of it. I rather play a short game multiple times, than a mega-long journey only once. Please read on for explanation:

Bards Tale 4 is likely to be a character- and combat-drive game (like Wizardry8 or MMX). Because of that it offers countless possibilities for party and character combinations. The thing is: if the game is too long (like the ones above having 60 hours gameplay), motivation falls short to start another game after the first playthrough. The 2nd playthrough already becomes cumbersome thinking "omg I must do this and that shit again for so long". And let's be honest, there are no games which offer plots, that make another 60 hours interesting. The truth is, that most of these walkthroughs are stopped soon after starting. But this wouldn't happen if the campaign was shorter.

I am perfectly clear that people might not like this suggestion, but I would even take a 10 hours game. I'm a person who likes to try and fiddle with different combinations and setups (for which RPGs are great) - and if the game isn't too long, then I play through it all over again. This way you can actually play and live through the different setups (and not only try and discard after a few hours). This experience is much more holistic than a single playthrough. Eventually much more time is spend on the game and you feel much more satisfied with the product, than when you play it only once.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Crosmando » September 20th, 2015, 3:49 am

That is ridiculous, Bard's Tale series have always been long games with many tens of hours of dungeon crawling. A 10 hour game is an insult whatever genre it is and is not worth even the lowest pledge for a game copy in the BT4 Kickstarter.

Also, it's easy to extend game length in a game like BT4, just enable respawning of enemies/random encounters etc. It's not like that would be out of character for the series.

If anything is a risk to BT4's budget it's the ridiculous amount of resources they seem to be allocating for graphics, I mean just look at that cinematic trailer they did, what a waste of money.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by IHaveHugeNick » September 20th, 2015, 5:52 am

The classic BT also pushed graphics really hard, though. Aren't you always about preserving the identity of original games?
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Crosmando » September 20th, 2015, 6:28 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:The classic BT also pushed graphics really hard, though.
Not necessarily, compared to Wizardry yes, but compared Might & Magic they didn't. Compare BT3 to Isle of Terra.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by IHaveHugeNick » September 20th, 2015, 8:10 am

Crosmando wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:The classic BT also pushed graphics really hard, though.
Not necessarily, compared to Wizardry yes, but compared Might & Magic they didn't. Compare BT3 to Isle of Terra.
IoT? What a bizarre comparision. It came out 3 years later, of course graphics are gonna be superior.


BT had revolutionary graphics when it launched. BT4 is obviously not gonna have that due to budgetary constrains, but pushing the graphics
as much as they can stays true to the series.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Drool » September 20th, 2015, 12:00 pm

Yeah, if you're gonna compare, it's gonna be BT3 to M&M2, which were both 1988. Or... Pool of Radiance. Or Wizardry 5. Or... um... Dragon Warrior 3?

But, the thing to keep in mind is less the graphics of 3 than the graphics of 1. Remember, part of the reason for making the game in the first place was to be a Wizardry-killer. Part of the point of the original Bard's Tale was to be a graphical and audio behemoth.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Crosmando » September 20th, 2015, 9:28 pm

In the 80's Interplay was being funded by a big publisher (EA) to make the BT games, they were a similar sized studio to other computer-game developer. Today InXile is a small studio compared to the massive studios at Ubisoft, Bethesda CDP or Bioware, those studios work with budgets of tens of millions of dollars, while this game has a budget of 1.5 million plus whatever extra they decide to put in.

If InXile tried to compete (graphically) with games like Fallout 4, Witcher 3 or Dragon Age: Inquisition they would fail and all of their money would be lost in a black hole.

In the 80's Interplay was on a similar footing to the other CRPG studios like Sir Tech, New World Computing and Origin Systems as far as resources go. But today in 2015 the difference between Interplay's resources and the resources of say Bethesda is like night & day, these companies have BILLIONS in the bank literally. Trying to compete with them is financial suicide.

Same goes for audio, Fargo talked about getting a famous Gaelic-singing artist to do the Bard songs, a great idea in principle but how long does each song go for, how much would InXile have to pay for each one. It could easily become a situation where the Bard class in BT4 only had a few songs because of the large cost of paying this artist for their work. Not to mention that they would need both a male and female singer, thus doubling the cost again. I don't know about you, but I expect their to be many Bard songs in BT4, just like I expect their to be many spells.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by IHaveHugeNick » September 21st, 2015, 12:51 am

Yeah, they were totally thinking they can try and compete with multi-million budgets, until you came along and explained that its not possible with their limited resources. Fargo will be very glad you're on forums to explain these things, after all he is only in the industry since before you were born.

The graphics they shown don't really look that special. By the time it comes out in 2017, it will probably seem fairly average. Unfortunately, its a first person-perspective game, and in that perspective graphics age exremely quickly, so they need to be up to certain standard or the game will be DOA. Didn't you spend several months before campaign started, championing that BT absolutely needs to be FPP to stay true to the series? Well, as Confucius said, you reap what you sow.

The production will obviously be very limited in many ways compared to something like Witcher 3. The enviroments look good, but that is just a small part of what makes AAA blockbusters expensive. They also already explained they'll be using photogrammetry , which already had huge success in some indie games (Vanishing of Ethan Carter most notably) that delivered stunning graphics on a low budget. Its also dungeon crawler, meaning you're usually in a dungeon, meaning they get to reuse a lot of assets.

Also, I seriously doubt even "world famous" Gaellic signing artist makes *that* much. She'll probably make 2-3 songs to play at the intro and in critical points of the game, and that will be it.

The Kickstarter barely finished and you're already preaching Bard's certain demise. I don't know if you're bored or forgot your Prozac.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Drool » September 21st, 2015, 12:17 pm

IHaveHugeNick wrote:Also, I seriously doubt even "world famous" Gaellic signing artist makes *that* much. She'll probably make 2-3 songs to play at the intro and in critical points of the game, and that will be it.
Brian was in Scotland and is a very personable guy. It sounds like she'll be doing most/all of the soundtrack. And likely at a reasonable rate (scale?), through sheer force of personality.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Jordan Joestar » September 22nd, 2015, 9:22 am

Drool wrote:You're moving the goal posts while splitting hairs here. Besides, pretty much every single boss fight in Bloodborne -- just like in Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and Dark Souls 2 -- is essentially a giant puzzle. That production house has made a mint creating unforgiving games that demand thought, and they were all aimed squarely at the console market. Dark Souls is all but unplayable using keyboard + mouse. Claiming console users are incapable of being able to think and are just ADD-riddled manchildren flies in the face of direct evidence like the smash success of Bloodborne.
Could you tell me which boss fight are "essentially a giant puzzles"?
Drool wrote:There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, there are times where I do that. Why do you think I have a copy of the original Rise of the Triad sitting around? So I can fire it up, turn on all the cheat codes, and just giggle as I blow Nazis into little pieces.

Sometimes you just want to read trashy pulp. You don't always have to be reading Saul Bellow.
"Sometimes" isn't a problem, but when become "every day" it is. Whole word know that the joke called Destiny is a second-rate game, anyway many people prefer to play this kind of games that someting of better. There's why videogames, in general, are far to be good like old games.
Thanks to the crowdfunding we are safe.
Drool wrote:I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, so I'm going to assume it's just more running down of people playing on a console.
My experience on the web isn't good. I followed a site of videogames that slowly become more Sony-oriented. Many news about PC never exist in this site and I pledged The Bard's Tale IV only because I'm a backer of Torment: Tides Of Numenera.
When at the E3 the redactors commented the PC conference was totally a joke against PC gamers and many users who write what really happened were banned.
Also, the users of this site (more than 70% are Sony gamers) attack PC gamers, throw shit against games like Star Citizen, Pillars Of Eternity and other PC games.
I'm sure that when Torment and The Bard's Tale comes out they will have the same fate.
I follow Star Citizen development and grow well, but the redactors of this site don't show any news about and they only say that Roberts lives with the money of a neverending development games! Misleading advertising and defamation.

If you understand italian I can give you the link of this website. Now my account was deleted by one of the redactors because they dislike those users who say the truth. PC gamers are disappeared in this site.
Redactors of Multiplayer.it are worst than nazis.
Drool wrote:Mote. Beam.
What?
Drool wrote:There's no fanatic like a converted fanatic.
PC akbar! :x

:lol:
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Drool » September 22nd, 2015, 12:25 pm

Jordan Joestar wrote:Could you tell me which boss fight are "essentially a giant puzzles"?
...all of them? None of them are straight up slug-fests. They all involve dying several times to figure out the patterns and mechanics. But if you need a name, how about Crossbreed Priscilla?
"Sometimes" isn't a problem, but when become "every day" it is. Whole word know that the joke called Destiny is a second-rate game, anyway many people prefer to play this kind of games that someting of better.
Yeah, the problem is defining "better". If someone's having fun, then why the hell do you care? It's not like we're sitting here arguing for the artistic merit of Custer's Revenge.
Also, the users of this site (more than 70% are Sony gamers) attack PC gamers, throw shit against games like Star Citizen, Pillars Of Eternity and other PC games.
So what? I mean, really, who cares?

Game reviews are like any other attempt to apply objective metrics to subjective sources. Roger Ebert gave Pitch Black a tepid 2 stars. Personally, I think it's a brilliant film with more depth than people realize. But do I sit around and grump about what a bum rap he gave it? Of course not. That would be a waste of time. Find a critic you agree with most of the time, or find a critic you disagree with most of the time. Either way, you should have a good idea of if you'll like a game.

Or go on Youtube. There's probably a dozen playthroughs uploaded already.
Drool wrote:Mote. Beam.
What?
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

In other words, you look a little silly complaining about people throwing mud when you're flinging just as much.
Redactors of Multiplayer.it are worst than nazis.
Oh. I see. You're a loon with no sense of proportion. Now I'm sorry I've wasted my time responding to you.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Jordan Joestar » September 22nd, 2015, 1:10 pm

Drool wrote:...all of them? None of them are straight up slug-fests. They all involve dying several times to figure out the patterns and mechanics. But if you need a name, how about Crossbreed Priscilla?
I saw a friend play all Demon's Souls, I saw many video of boss fight in Dark Souls... "puzzles"? Mah.
I had show your post to a friend on Steam and he played Demon's Souls, Dark Souls I and II and Bloodborne. He said that he has not seen any "puzzles" but normal boss fight with common mechanics.

I think that The Bard's Tale IV will be more like Legend Of Grimrock 2 than Dark Souls...
Drool wrote:Yeah, the problem is defining "better". If someone's having fun, then why the hell do you care? It's not like we're sitting here arguing for the artistic merit of Custer's Revenge.
The fate of videogames is similar to the fate of music. None cares about what the mass listen and many people have fun with One Direction and maybe ignore who is Maurice Ravel, Chopin, Mussorgsky... yes, who cares, but then we shouldn't complain if everything goes wrong.
Drool wrote:So what? I mean, really, who cares?

Game reviews are like any other attempt to apply objective metrics to subjective sources. Roger Ebert gave Pitch Black a tepid 2 stars. Personally, I think it's a brilliant film with more depth than people realize. But do I sit around and grump about what a bum rap he gave it? Of course not. That would be a waste of time. Find a critic you agree with most of the time, or find a critic you disagree with most of the time. Either way, you should have a good idea of if you'll like a game.

Or go on Youtube. There's probably a dozen playthroughs uploaded already.
A constructive criticism is a thing, a misleading publicity is another thing.
I stopped to follow those sites and I prefer to read news from the developers.
I use YouTube only for the music.
Drool wrote:"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

In other words, you look a little silly complaining about people throwing mud when you're flinging just as much.
I don't throw mud, I just say that this kind of games are not for the mass of console gamers. It's an opninion, not a manifestation of hatred against console gamers.

About "Mote. Beam.", for the next time use other words because my english is far from being perfect. :)
Drool wrote:Oh. I see. You're a loon with no sense of proportion. Now I'm sorry I've wasted my time responding to you.
What? You didn't understand. With "Redactors of Multiplayer.it are worst than nazis" is just a figure of speech to remark how much they are infamous. :|
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Lucius » September 22nd, 2015, 1:59 pm

I would say when you have to do things a specific way, specific order, specific timing, etc. an encounter could classify as a puzzle. It's definitely abstract and not a very traditional use of the term "puzzle", but it's definitely an interesting comparison. Another great example that fits here is WoW raid bosses. Those are definitely puzzles. If you don't have a guide, you have try over and over again to decipher the mechanics. They certainly require thought like a puzzle, but they also require a twitch component, unlike a traditional puzzle.

Here's the definition of "puzzle"

a game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

This definition absolutely fits these style of boss encounters.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by thebruce » September 23rd, 2015, 7:06 am

Drool wrote:Find a critic you agree with most of the time, or find a critic you disagree with most of the time.
heh, almost word for word how I describe my recommendation for dealing with "reviews" for movies and games. I like enjoy things more than have bad experiences, so I tend to enjoy many films that are typically rated sub-par; trying to find the best from them because I'd rather leave happy than cynical. So I don't put muc weight on reviews in general; I could miss out on a lot of stuff I may well like. I appreciate objective analyses so I can form my own opinion of whether I may like it or not (and I'll weigh opinions of those I feel my opinions are most in line with more than the rest). But anyway... :P
Drool wrote:
Drool wrote:Mote. Beam.
What?
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
Maybe "Speck. Plank." would have had a little more resonance with today's english culture? :)
Or for those non-versed in Verse, "Pot. Kettle." heh
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