Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

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Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Crosmando » September 13th, 2015, 6:11 am

The Bard's Tale IV Kickstarter got a lot less money than was expected, only half of WL2's 3 million and even more less than Torment's 4.1 million. Comments by Brian Fargo preceding the KS indicated that he thought BT4 would get just as much money as WL2/Torment, or at the least he didn't expect it to get this much less.

The reasons for this are varied: the campaign itself was lackluster and felt like it was rushed out with very little information about what the game would be like. The campaign didn't feel like it had InXile's full weight and resources behind it, compared to Torment's KS where you had lengthy updates (and video updates) by Colin McComb and others who all seemed absolutely passionate and invested in the project . BT4's Kickstarter seemed quite honestly like it was handled by a few junior employees (sear and Brother None?) in their spare time. Other factors played in, the KS was launched during E3 and instead of E3 giving the Kickstarter a bump it completely overshadowed it.

You could say Wasteland 2's KS also gave us very little information, but this was when Kickstarter was very new and people were excited about classic CRPG's being resurrected, and a lot has changed in the 2-3 years since then. The playing field is now awash with Computer RPG's (many funded via KS) so the absolute desperation and despair of CRPG gamers that their genre was dying/dead has diminished somewhat since then. Many KS-funded games have also been released and were disappointments, which meant potential backers were more wary of backing future games.

So anyway, 1.5 million, how disappointed is Brian Fargo at this number? Has the BT4 KS badly affected the morale of InXile? Or even worse, has Fargo or others concluded that "first-person dungeon crawlers are too tiny a market" and that story-driven isometric CRPG's are the only future for CRPG's in general? Will InXile only invest 1.5 million (minus costs for taxes/fees and physical reward fulfillment) into BT4, the bare minimum to finish the game, and then abandon the "blobber" genre entirely?

Keep in mind that I don't actually "believe" any of those things, I am just putting these questions out there because I do have a real fear that BT4 might end up getting the short end of the stick, and it might become the "budget" project for InXile. Brian Fargo, as much as I admire him, is a businessman and he might logically conclude that investing profits from WL2:DC or Torment into BT4 might be "throwing good money after bad" and then only have BT4 made to fulfill commitment to Kickstarter backers at the absolute bare minimum of costs to finish the game.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Lucius » September 13th, 2015, 6:52 am

My thoughts are the KS didn't perform as expected, but I don't think they are going to half ass the game. I think they are basically sitting on the project for now, waiting for another funding source (WL2:DC). When I saw the trailer for BT4, I had two thoughts....gorgeous! and this could play really, really well on consoles. BT4 could find massive success on consoles if the game is given attention to detail and solid mechanics. It's their potential cash cow. Not taking it seriously would be a big mistake for inXile, and I'm willing to bet they see the same future potential of this style game.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by IHaveHugeNick » September 13th, 2015, 8:29 am

They're not EA, they make on average one game every 2 years. They can't afford to half ass anything. One Kickstarter flop and you're out of the crowdfunding game for good. As for whether they will tunnel additional funds above what was promised, who knows? A lot depends on how the Torment turns out.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by ZiN » September 13th, 2015, 10:47 am

Lucius wrote:When I saw the trailer for BT4, I had two thoughts....gorgeous! and this could play really, really well on consoles. BT4 could find massive success on consoles if the game is given attention to detail and solid mechanics. It's their potential cash cow. Not taking it seriously would be a big mistake for inXile, and I'm willing to bet they see the same future potential of this style game.
I completely disagree. And i think InXile disagrees as well, as they've stated that they're focusing on PC version only (although they added the "we will see later about console ports" statement to the FAQ, just to be safe). This game's conception was a "faithful sequel and a revival of the old-school dungeon-crawler (blobber)", which is basically the opposite of being a console money-maker, for the widest audience possible.

You are right however, that the in-engine video gave that "awesome shit" vibe, even Bethesda/Bioware could envy. Which brings us to the point that it wasn't really appropriate, in my opinion.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Lucius » September 13th, 2015, 11:51 am

Just to clarify, I am certain they will focus on PC entirely through release. I have no doubt there. I'm certain it will get console ports post release though, as long as is does well on PC.

Honestly, the major draw back to Bards Tale series, in regarding mass appeal, is the blobber nature of it, which we know they are not compromising. I don't think that is a major obstacle to overcome. I mean look at XCOM, an isometric, turn based game with mass market appeal. Who would have imagined that is possible in this decade? In today's world, the gaming landscape is so vast, you don't even need to target the widest audience possible to still have a major success.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by waltc » September 17th, 2015, 10:51 am

Financially, the BT4 kickstarter was a complete success--the game exceeded its goals and also unlocked several stretch goals! It's the very definition of a successful KS. Most KS projects should do as well--so your somewhat negative assumption is puzzling. As for your thought that only "junior people" orchestrated the Kickstarter...Brian F. himself was featured prominently throughout the campaign. Also...don't forget that InXile promised to *match* whatever funding the KS accrued with an equal amount of its own money--so now we're talking a $3M budget, at least.

If anything might have dampened the enthusiasm for the BT KS somewhat it would have been, in my opinion, BT 2004. No doubt some people took a gander at that game and walked away from the project thinking BTIV was a remake of that--instead of the older games--about which they knew nothing, probably. Or, if they *liked* BT2004, then when they discovered that BTIV was not going to be a similar game, they balked. BT 2004 is why you never say "Never" again, (eh, Brian?)...!

A few of us (like me) remember when the original BT games were new and we actually bought them in the 80's, don't ya' know...;) We've always understood the potential of the game and it's almost an icon (just shy of legendary) for some of us...;) [I guess I am a bit strange because I like computer gaming more now than I ever have and I've been doing it and projects related for the past 30 years...;) So, OK, I'm proud to be "strange" in that regard if that is what I am!]

I guess what I want to say is that I consider the BTIV KS to have been anything *but* a failure! I saw it as a resounding success, especially in light of the fact that there have been, as you mentioned, so many other successful RPG KS projects of late to compete with it...! In that climate--plus it being the summer months when interest in all things tech seems to wane until the fall--the BTIV KS did as well as could be expected--if not better.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Jordan Joestar » September 17th, 2015, 4:53 pm

Lucius wrote:My thoughts are the KS didn't perform as expected, but I don't think they are going to half ass the game. I think they are basically sitting on the project for now, waiting for another funding source (WL2:DC). When I saw the trailer for BT4, I had two thoughts....gorgeous! and this could play really, really well on consoles. BT4 could find massive success on consoles if the game is given attention to detail and solid mechanics. It's their potential cash cow. Not taking it seriously would be a big mistake for inXile, and I'm willing to bet they see the same future potential of this style game.
Mh... This kind of games are not for console nor for console gamers. Who plays on console have other preferences and a dungeon crawler games aren't good for them. Less action, many things to think about and patience; three things that I don't see in all my console gamers friend. Give them a short and simple gameplay of CoD and BF with the online and you will make them happy.
I showed Legend Of Grimrock and Legend Of Grimrock II to some of these friends of mine and they said: "Uh? That's slow and boring" or "I don't want to think, I want only fight and cast spells with a simple click!"

The game is far from being released and we don't have the backersite yet. Funds will rise (I'll upgrade from 33$ to 185$ or 230$) so we should wait and we will see new backers.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Lucius » September 17th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Jordan Joestar wrote:Mh... This kind of games are not for console nor for console gamers.
Says who? You? A first person RPG plays really well with a controller, far better than an isometric RPG. It's highly likely that this game can play very well on consoles at some point. Let me say this, the playstyle, such as control scheme etc, is a better fit for consoles compared to Wasteland 2. No?
Who plays on console have other preferences and a dungeon crawler games aren't good for them. Less action, many things to think about and patience; three things that I don't see in all my console gamers friend. Give them a short and simple gameplay of CoD and BF with the online and you will make them happy.
You need better friends? Or maybe you generalize too much. I know plenty of people who like mindless console games, but most of those people also like deeper experiences as well. Obviously, we must hang around different types of console gamers. Don't be so closed minded. You shouldn't think that everyone who owns a console is like your friends.
I showed Legend Of Grimrock and Legend Of Grimrock II to some of these friends of mine and they said: "Uh? That's slow and boring" or "I don't want to think, I want only fight and cast spells with a simple click!"
Try showing them something that doesn't suck? Don't get me wrong, I don't think LoG sucks necessarily, but the combat really sucks. Again, it sounds like you don't have very many intelligent friends. Again, probably shouldn't base every console gamer on them, because in my experience with console gamers, most can't be lumped into one basket like that.
The Bard's Tale IV will be another InXile's masterpiece.
Gotta have a first masterpiece before you can have another masterpiece. ;)



We are seeing more and more different styles of games showing up on consoles, and succeeding. Assumptions like these above are really out of touch with realities. No, I don't think any inXile game will ever sell a gabillion units on console, but they don't have to. But if BTIV is a solid game, 9's or higher review scores, with high user scores on metacritic or wherever gamers spread word of mouth, the game will sell. If that happens, and it's a bona fide PC hit, it could also thrive on console based on word of mouth.

My point was, out of everything inXile has made since Kickstarter, BTIV is the best fit for consoles compared to WL2 or TTON, and if successful on PC, it's their best chance to find success on console in comparison to their current lineup, so I think they would be foolish to not put a huge effort into making it their most amazing game yet because of that potential.

Disclaimer- because I feel like I have to say this with every post on this forum - they shouldn't focus on console AT ALL. But when the time comes, I think this game would be a really good fit, compared to their previous games, particularly if it's a surprise hit.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by sear » September 17th, 2015, 9:44 pm

I think you guys can dismiss fears about The Bard's Tale IV being a "B project". We will always be pushing the boundaries of what we can accomplish.

The Kickstarter campaign exceeded its goals and we're (at minimum) matching that same amount with our own reserves. We have a lot planned behind the scenes to drive things forward (when do we not?), and we have a back catalog of great and successful games that continue to do well - not to mention that Torment and Wasteland 2 Director's Cut sales will all go right back into supporting future development.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Nekot-The-Brave » September 17th, 2015, 10:07 pm

HOMM:QFDBS was an okay console game, so I figure that BT:IV would at least be better than that, which would make it a good or great console game.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Themadcow » September 18th, 2015, 12:05 am

Nekot-The-Brave wrote:HOMM:QFDBS was an okay console game, so I figure that BT:IV would at least be better than that, which would make it a good or great console game.
I think I'd be looking towards Wizardry: TOTFL or the Nintindo DS Etrian / SMT games for console similarities tbh.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Ether » September 18th, 2015, 5:09 am

Lucius wrote:
Jordan Joestar wrote:Mh... This kind of games are not for console nor for console gamers.
Says who? You? A first person RPG plays really well with a controller, far better than an isometric RPG. It's highly likely that this game can play very well on consoles at some point. Let me say this, the playstyle, such as control scheme etc, is a better fit for consoles compared to Wasteland 2. No?
Who plays on console have other preferences and a dungeon crawler games aren't good for them. Less action, many things to think about and patience; three things that I don't see in all my console gamers friend. Give them a short and simple gameplay of CoD and BF with the online and you will make them happy.
You need better friends? Or maybe you generalize too much. I know plenty of people who like mindless console games, but most of those people also like deeper experiences as well. Obviously, we must hang around different types of console gamers. Don't be so closed minded. You shouldn't think that everyone who owns a console is like your friends.
I showed Legend Of Grimrock and Legend Of Grimrock II to some of these friends of mine and they said: "Uh? That's slow and boring" or "I don't want to think, I want only fight and cast spells with a simple click!"
Try showing them something that doesn't suck? Don't get me wrong, I don't think LoG sucks necessarily, but the combat really sucks. Again, it sounds like you don't have very many intelligent friends. Again, probably shouldn't base every console gamer on them, because in my experience with console gamers, most can't be lumped into one basket like that.
The Bard's Tale IV will be another InXile's masterpiece.
Gotta have a first masterpiece before you can have another masterpiece. ;)



We are seeing more and more different styles of games showing up on consoles, and succeeding. Assumptions like these above are really out of touch with realities. No, I don't think any inXile game will ever sell a gabillion units on console, but they don't have to. But if BTIV is a solid game, 9's or higher review scores, with high user scores on metacritic or wherever gamers spread word of mouth, the game will sell. If that happens, and it's a bona fide PC hit, it could also thrive on console based on word of mouth.

My point was, out of everything inXile has made since Kickstarter, BTIV is the best fit for consoles compared to WL2 or TTON, and if successful on PC, it's their best chance to find success on console in comparison to their current lineup, so I think they would be foolish to not put a huge effort into making it their most amazing game yet because of that potential.

Disclaimer- because I feel like I have to say this with every post on this forum - they shouldn't focus on console AT ALL. But when the time comes, I think this game would be a really good fit, compared to their previous games, particularly if it's a surprise hit.
As a console player, I don't get the stereotyping either.

The only thing I can't see console players doing is mapping the levels on graph paper, and writing down each individual message, but that has more to do with it being 2015 as compared to 1985. The automap will eliminate the first issue, and most games - at least the ones I've played - end up storing messages and such in some sort of in game journal, taking care of the other issue.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2015, 6:39 am

Ether wrote:The only thing I can't see console players doing is mapping the levels on graph paper, and writing down each individual message, but that has more to do with it being 2015 as compared to 1985. The automap will eliminate the first issue, and most games - at least the ones I've played - end up storing messages and such in some sort of in game journal, taking care of the other issue.
That may be one of the key differences - console players wouldn't (most likely) prefer to map while playing. And that mentality may be a solid reason why BT4 is best developed for desktop. If at for the very least because the keyboard is on a desk which is great while playing for - writing on graph paper! :P
And BTW, even though it's 30 years in the future, manually drawing your own maps isn't something out of the bronze age. It's merely a different style or element of gameplay that isn't nearly as mainstream or attention getting as others. But it was a key aspect of BT1, 2, and arguably 3, amongst other games. It can still be done today, if it weren't for all the automatic mapping; or games with highly complicated maps that make mapping far too tedious for most people :P

So I don't think the automap "eliminates the issue" - I think the automap detracts from a key BT experience. But that's really just my opinion on automapping in the context of Bard's Tale :) The BT3 implementation of automap was sufficient; helped reduced mistakes, but didn't give you everything on a silver platter. It was still prudent to make your own detailed maps while playing (and it guided your character development because you were fighting and improving while exploring).

I truly hope that remains true with BT4. And that's one of the reasons why I don't think BT4 would be good on a console, either to play or to be developed. At least not until the main game has been released, as intended, on desktop. Focus on one alone, then if desired, port it so it's viable on the other.
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by waltc » September 18th, 2015, 8:54 am

Ether wrote:
We are seeing more and more different styles of games showing up on consoles, and succeeding. Assumptions like these above are really out of touch with realities. No, I don't think any inXile game will ever sell a gabillion units on console, but they don't have to. But if BTIV is a solid game, 9's or higher review scores, with high user scores on metacritic or wherever gamers spread word of mouth, the game will sell. If that happens, and it's a bona fide PC hit, it could also thrive on console based on word of mouth.
(Next paragraph is just background:)

Now that consoles today (PS"I need more" & xBone) are literally low/mid-range x86 PCs themselves, consoles have indeed gotten better than they were. However, they are still low/middle-end in terms of the processing horsepower on board. Spend 50% more on a PC and you'll have a box that'll outperform a PS4 by 200%-500%, depending on the software, a box that will offer a plethora of resolutions beyond 1080P (which in 2015 xBone has trouble with, believe it or not), and be user-upgradable, and user-serviceable, two major "Quality of Ownership" advantages that simply don't apply to owning a console. With a PC I can run the original Bard's Tale games (circa 1980's) on Windows 10x64 with a 64-bit version of Dosbox (SVN)--easy peasy. Try that with a PS4/xBone. When it comes down to it consoles represent the worst buys (value, bang-for-the-buck) a gaming consumer can make when contrasted with the ubiquitous PC, which you can assemble yourself from parts ordered from NewEgg/Amazon in an exercise that is less complex than an hour-long game of Minecraft. The amount of game software available for a Windows PC dwarfs what's available for the PS4 & xB1, and the prices are usually a whole lot better, too.

Consoles are for--not knowledgeable people--but people who are disinclined to learn about and/or intimidated by x86 Windows PCs and whose idea of a game is lots of button mashing, loud noises and bright colors (stuff blowing up, etc.)...which generally keeps them entertained for about fifteen minutes, until their attention-span is exhausted and they move on to something else they enjoy doing on a daily basis--like eating & drinking, for instance...;)

My point to all of this is only that the view of most people who use computers for their gaming activities is that consoles tend to ruin it for the rest of us because some developers create their games specifically for the lowest hardware common denominator in 2015--game consoles. That's why some people are "sensitive" to the idea of a game they are looking forward to being developed for a console--they know it may well wind up with certain conventions they've come to associate with console games, conventions they don't much care for. I concur with that view, pretty much. Given a choice, I cannot see why anyone would prefer to play a game on a console versus a PC.

$300-$500 Consoles made much more sense decades ago, when a decent x86 PC cost $3k-$5k, than they do today. In fact, that great price disparity created the game console market. Today, consoles really don't make a whole lot of sense economically speaking as, imo, an x86 Windows PC used for gaming is a much better buy.

Why is it, for instance, that you would like to see the game show up for consoles?

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2015, 9:29 am

Consoles are for--not knowledgeable people--
Um, you have a very low opinion of the console market, and the fact that you're essentially denegrating an ENORMOUS gaming market is frankly a little absurd.

Yes, consoles have weaknesses, as do PCs.
I'm not that much of a gamer (gettin' old and busy!), but I realized the benefit to owning a console many years ago, and I was all about PC gaming. It's a different gaming experience, definitely not lesser, objectively speaking.

Technically consoles may on average be less powerful than a Desktop, but I also learned long ago that having dedicated hardware made development and focusing on the gaming experience much easier, allowing devs to eek out much more power and tricks than if they were developing the same way for the PC market with ranges of OS's and hardware specs. Let alone the differences in how you play a console in your home vs how you play a PC.

The fact that developers understand the value of consoles and the BOOMING console market means that your opinion of those who buy consoles is irrelevant. Please try to remain objective and avoid inflamatory comments that could spark emotionalized debate. There is a wonderful PC market, and there is a wonderful console market, and both have generally different demographics the styles of games that are available and popular.
My point to all of this is only that the view of most people who use computers for their gaming activities is that consoles tend to ruin it for the rest of us because some developers create their games specifically for the lowest hardware common denominator in 2015--game consoles.
So direct your ire-- constructive criticism-- towards developers who want to cater to the very successful console market instead of only the PC market, instead of at those who enjoy playing consoles more than PCs.

kthx! ;)
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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Ether » September 18th, 2015, 10:17 am

waltc wrote:Why is it, for instance, that you would like to see the game show up for consoles?
Easy: I own one (well, not the one that BTIV would appear on, yet), and it's what I've used largely to play games on since my Commodore 64 met it's demise. And I'm hardly some ADHD ridden, unknowledgeable oaf.

I have no desire to shell out however much it costs to buy another PC built just to run games, considering that it will be outdated within what, 2 months?
I learned my lesson when my PC - purchased in late 2001 - couldn't run GTA Vice City, purchased about a year later.

I'll stick with my XBox 360, which still more than adequately suffices. And when it's finally obsolete for me, either the XBox 1 or PS4.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by IHaveHugeNick » September 18th, 2015, 10:39 am

Lol, people just love to pat themselves on the back about how owning a PC makes them this deeply intellectual outlier living on a bring of technological innovation. A lot of users around this forum are gaming on consoles, and have been using Windows PCs since DOS days. Back then, PC was so complex to use, it would scare away 99% of people who nowadays think they're tech wizards, because they can launch a game on Steam with two click and change bunch of settings. So perhaps meditate on that for a minute, before slinging random claims about console users being "scared of complexity". :roll:

Personally I owned both PCs and consoles since the late 80s and I see no problems with either of them. Both approaches to gaming have their advantages. The only thing that's stopping me from owning all 3 major consoles + a PC is money and limited time to play, because there's amazing things coming out on all of them.

Also, this notion about consoles holding PCs back is straight from scrapbook of PCMasterRace delusions.

Consoles don't hold the PC market back. They stabilize it. Sorry to be a party pooper, but some of us happen to be old enough to actually remember when console and PC markets were almost completely seperated. Believe it or not, there was no sudden burst of technologicaly advanced, superbly optimized games. What occurred instead, was a sudden burst of games that sometimes were unplayable on release on 95% of machines on the market.

By providing the lowest-hardware denominator, console create a rock solid standard of processing power that all developers can cater towards. Ironically enough, that's exactly the reason PC gaming has bounced back from what looked like certain death. The console exclusivity is in full withdraw, because developers know if something runs on the consoles, it will run on PCs, so it'd be profitable to make a port.

Long story short, PC gaming is thriving because of consoles, not despite of them.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Lucius » September 18th, 2015, 11:17 am

@waltc

Why would someone want to use a console vs a PC.

A list, by Lucius.

1. Space. No room for a desk means either console or gaming laptop. The console has much better longevity vs cost compared to a laptop.

2. Comfort. The couch is awesome. So is the 5.1 without needing headphones or again space for an additional surround setup.

3. Assassins Creed. Batman. Racing games. Though this is a controller issue, not a platform issue, since console controllers also work with PC, but I needed to pad my list. You could add console exclusives here as well.

4. It just works. You put a disc in and play. No drivers to deal with. No min. system requirements to worry about.

5. No need for technical ability. This ties in with #4, but no need to know what RAM is and does it go in slots 1 & 2 or 1 & 3. No folders to search through to find your music files, just go to the music tab. Consoles are extremely user friendly.

So you didn't know why anyone would choose console over PC, there's some reasons. And in case you were wondering, yes I usually game on PC. I agree PC is inherently superior, but I'm not blind to consoles usefulness.

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Ether » September 18th, 2015, 11:33 am

You can also add play the game in front of a 60 inch TV vs. a 13 inch monitor.
(I know you can probably hook up the PC to said TV, but that's just more work)

One question: Are controllers on PC's standardized?

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Re: Does BT4 have InXile's full commitment? Is there a risk of BT4 becoming InXile's "budget" project

Post by Lucius » September 18th, 2015, 11:40 am

Ether wrote:You can also add play the game in front of a 60 inch TV vs. a 13 inch monitor.
(I know you can probably hook up the PC to said TV, but that's just more work)

One question: Are controllers on PC's standardized?
What do you mean standardized?

Most console games on PC have controller support. Plug in a controller and it automatically gives you the console UI. This works with both PS and MS controllers. Not sure about any 3rd party controllers, but those are usually generic clones of the Xbox/PS controller, so should work the same. So most likely yes to your question.

Games without native controller support can be mapped to a controller with 3rd party software, but that's rare. Usually that's needed for older titles from prior to 360, like the original Fable or BT04, for example.

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