Skills and Spells suggestion thread

For all Bard's Tale IV discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by paultakeda » May 22nd, 2017, 10:09 am

Crosmando wrote:
May 21st, 2017, 9:53 pm
Drool wrote:
May 21st, 2017, 12:47 pm
Gotta say... not a fan of traps or pickpocketing. And frankly, adding more fiddly complexity to the combat they seem to be going with is the last thing we need.
I honestly cannot believe you can call yourself a fan of CRPGs if you are deliberately advocating for simplistic systems. Even if classic BT was quite simple, that was probably because of the limited programming space on discs, the same reason Wasteland had the paragraphs.

Plus all I'm suggesting is things to bring Rogues closer to spellcasters in terms of abilities. There's no reason why non-spellcasters have to be less interesting.
I don't see either of those skills as part of combat. Setting up a trap is pre-combat. Pickpocketing is very much a stealth thing you do to avoid combat, no? So sure, those skills can be in the game as something you can do outside combat.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Crosmando » May 22nd, 2017, 10:30 am

paultakeda wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:09 am
Setting up a trap is pre-combat.
Yes but it would still damage enemies at the start of combat, so thus combat.
Pickpocketing is very much a stealth thing you do to avoid combat, no?
I said right there that it could be used in combat to steal items like armor or weapons from enemies during combat. Outside of combat it would presumably be used to steal from NPCs to get more money.
So sure, those skills can be in the game as something you can do outside combat.
So if a Cleric casts a protection buff on the party outside of combat and then the party moves into combat with the spell still active, it's not a combat spell?
Jademonk wrote:
May 21st, 2017, 6:32 am
Although many interesting suggestions have been made regarding melee combat, I think the main focus of Bard's Tale IV ought to be on magic. As it always has been.
I agree, but giving the Rogue 3 more abilities and the Warrior 1 is hardly shifting the focus, considering that spellcasters are going to have DOZENS, probably more than a hundred, spells.
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by paultakeda » May 22nd, 2017, 11:51 am

Crosmando wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:30 am
paultakeda wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:09 am
Setting up a trap is pre-combat.
Yes but it would still damage enemies at the start of combat, so thus combat.
My point is you shouldn't be able to use the trap skill during combat, where combat is a strictly defined phase in the game where the grid comes down and movement/action is performed in a turn-based manner with APs. If that is the case, then no, setting a trap should not usable in combat.
Crosmando wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:30 am
Pickpocketing is very much a stealth thing you do to avoid combat, no?
I said right there that it could be used in combat to steal items like armor or weapons from enemies during combat. Outside of combat it would presumably be used to steal from NPCs to get more money.
Stealing armor or weapons during combat? I'm going to have to say no to that, unless the thief has magical object teleport abilities. Or you can give the thief an ability/skill to TAKE a sword from an enemy combatant through sleight-of-hand or some other dextrous manipulation, but that's not pickpocketing. Pickpocketing as a skill shouldn't be usable during combat.
Crosmando wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:30 am
So sure, those skills can be in the game as something you can do outside combat.
So if a Cleric casts a protection buff on the party outside of combat and then the party moves into combat with the spell still active, it's not a combat spell?
As I mentioned above, combat is strictly defined in this game. Certain spells can be cast during combat and you could say all spells can be cast out of combat (provided spells requiring a target have that target). A protective buff can be cast in combat.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Crosmando » May 22nd, 2017, 12:04 pm

paultakeda wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:09 am
My point is you shouldn't be able to use the trap skill during combat, where combat is a strictly defined phase in the game where the grid comes down and movement/action is performed in a turn-based manner with APs. If that is the case, then no, setting a trap should not usable in combat.
:roll: Yes fine, but it helps the Rogue contribute to combat.
Stealing armor or weapons during combat? I'm going to have to say no to that, unless the thief has magical object teleport abilities. Or you can give the thief an ability/skill to TAKE a sword from an enemy combatant through sleight-of-hand or some other dextrous manipulation, but that's not pickpocketing. Pickpocketing as a skill shouldn't be usable during combat.
Firstly, I actually said "Pickpocketing/Steal", so obviously more of a catch-all "Steal" ability, which would cover out-of-combat things like pickpocketing NPC's or robbing houses, and also being able to steal items from enemies in combat. And yes, more of a dextrous sleight-of-hand thing.
As I mentioned above, combat is strictly defined in this game. Certain spells can be cast during combat and you could say all spells can be cast out of combat (provided spells requiring a target have that target). A protective buff can be cast in combat.
Yes?
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Gizmo » May 22nd, 2017, 12:35 pm

paultakeda wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:09 am
I don't see either of those skills as part of combat. Setting up a trap is pre-combat. Pickpocketing is very much a stealth thing you do to avoid combat, no? So sure, those skills can be in the game as something you can do outside combat.
paultakeda wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:09 am
Setting up a trap is pre-combat.
King's Bounty series does have several ways to set traps on the field before a fight; they are all abstract, and have a purpose (triggering a trap ends the target's turn), one of the methods implies an inferred scouting ability, another is a targeted magic spell. I don't think that the KB methods suit the nature of an FPP series where surprise attacks are more common, but I don't think it an invalid approach either. It could work, in the BG/PoE sort of way. What would you say to a toss-able bear trap item, similar to the land mine in FO3?

What I tend to not like about that approach though, is that often the PC is within reasonable sight of the victim while placing the trap... and they shouldn't really not be seen doing it; nor the target then lumber into it, oblivious.
Crosmando wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 10:30 am
So if a Cleric casts a protection buff on the party outside of combat and then the party moves into combat with the spell still active, it's not a combat spell?
I'd say not. One could surmise that any complex ritual would also not be a combat spell. Technically it may just be to prevent opportunistic (overpowered) casting of it during a fight, but the simple fact that it's not castable during the fight makes it a non-combat spell.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Crosmando » May 22nd, 2017, 3:05 pm

The way I imagined it, basically you would "equip" the traps out of combat and choose where you want them, basically which of the 4 squares in front of your front-line, so you could equip up to 4 traps on every square if you wanted. And when combat starts if an enemy is on top any of the trapped squares, they get hit with it. If a trapped square is empty, the trap remains active during combat until an enemy moves onto it.

If that makes sense.
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Gizmo » May 22nd, 2017, 5:54 pm

It does, and that's basically how it works in the recent King's Bounty series.
Image

(Of course... we would all hope for a better looking trap. ;) )
Last edited by Gizmo on May 22nd, 2017, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Drool » May 22nd, 2017, 9:48 pm

Crosmando wrote:
May 21st, 2017, 9:53 pm
I honestly cannot believe you can call yourself a fan of CRPGs if you are deliberately advocating for simplistic systems. Even if classic BT was quite simple, that was probably because of the limited programming space on discs, the same reason Wasteland had the paragraphs.
So... because I like the simplicity of those classic CRPGs and the CRPGs that are supposedly the source material for the game being built... I can't be a fan of CRPGs?

And, well, I'm not a fan of traps and pickpocketing. When they're in games, I pretty much never use them, unless something in the game forces me to. If I need to steal something from a merchant, I'd much rather catch them in a dark corner and stealthily murder them as opposed to fiddling around with trying to pickpocket them.

Furthermore, these sorts of skills are really out of place in a blobber. Leave the thief with hiding in shadows and backstabbing as opposed to wasting a turn to get 12 coins.
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Gizmo » May 22nd, 2017, 10:38 pm

Drool wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 9:48 pm
And, well, I'm not a fan of traps and pickpocketing. When they're in games, I pretty much never use them, unless something in the game forces me to.
I use them if playing a thief character—because it's in character; it's their aptitude and passion... whether they like fooling others, risking the chance at capture, or that they just wanted the money. How could I possibly play a thief character that didn't steal?
(That's like playing a bard that doesn't sing.)

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Crosmando » May 23rd, 2017, 12:53 am

Drool wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 9:48 pm
Crosmando wrote:
May 21st, 2017, 9:53 pm
I honestly cannot believe you can call yourself a fan of CRPGs if you are deliberately advocating for simplistic systems. Even if classic BT was quite simple, that was probably because of the limited programming space on discs, the same reason Wasteland had the paragraphs.
So... because I like the simplicity of those classic CRPGs and the CRPGs that are supposedly the source material for the game being built... I can't be a fan of CRPGs?

And, well, I'm not a fan of traps and pickpocketing. When they're in games, I pretty much never use them, unless something in the game forces me to. If I need to steal something from a merchant, I'd much rather catch them in a dark corner and stealthily murder them as opposed to fiddling around with trying to pickpocket them.

Furthermore, these sorts of skills are really out of place in a blobber. Leave the thief with hiding in shadows and backstabbing as opposed to wasting a turn to get 12 coins.
So you're fine with spellcasters getting dozens of spells, but giving the rogue 3 new abilities is "too complex"? Something doesn't add up. Also you do know that rogues disarmed traps in classic BT, it's a natural evolution of that that they can use traps of their own.
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by thebruce » May 23rd, 2017, 6:32 am

Let's focus on the class being "Rogue", not "Thief" :) (Though I know it was called "Thief of Fate", lol) One implies skills, the other implies morality. Which is another point - not that we've any hint of this so far, but I really hope inXile leaves out alignments and all that jazz. I just want to play my character's class how I would play them, not try to align my playing with an additional ethic. But I digress!

ETA: After the next few comments below, the next few pages are almost solely dedicated to the topic of "Alignment" between a handful of commenters. To skip that and continue more on the original topic of skills and spelled, jump to this comment (p11).
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by paultakeda » May 23rd, 2017, 8:45 am

Crosmando wrote:
May 22nd, 2017, 3:05 pm
The way I imagined it, basically you would "equip" the traps out of combat and choose where you want them, basically which of the 4 squares in front of your front-line, so you could equip up to 4 traps on every square if you wanted. And when combat starts if an enemy is on top any of the trapped squares, they get hit with it. If a trapped square is empty, the trap remains active during combat until an enemy moves onto it.

If that makes sense.
It does but I don't like it. It's like a prep turn where you already have the combat grid, so technically you are in combat setting up traps while saying to the enemy, "Don't mind her, she's just tidying up the combat floor before we start? Would you like a cup of tea?"

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by ZiN » May 23rd, 2017, 8:51 am

I somewhat agree with Drool on the "lots of new skills for all classes" front, kind of liked the simplicity of non-magic users in BT and the other old-schoolers. However, as it seems, the combat will be totally different, and with this new system, where positioning will have a huge effect, trapping / blocking a square would add extra tactical choices. Alas, this is not exactly old-school design...

Also I think it depends more on itemization: Non-mages' (fighters, hunters, paladins, monks, bards and rogues) special items could be made even more varied and interesting, compared to the classics.
If I recall, they wanted to make tinkering with and upgrading items, a new game mechanic. For example players could i craft an item for the hunter that increases his critical hit by 50%, or assemble a new twin-neck mandolin for the bard, which makes him able to apply two different songs, etc. This would make it all the more satisfying, than simply selecting this and that skill when leveling up.
In addition acquiring such an exceptional item by chance, might warrant creating a new guy in the Adventurers Guild who would use that item, from that point on.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by paultakeda » May 23rd, 2017, 10:05 am

I like the idea of items that craft up, whether or not the characters can do it or they can go to a shop and pay for it.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Gizmo » May 23rd, 2017, 11:56 am

paultakeda wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 10:05 am
I like the idea of items that craft up, whether or not the characters can do it or they can go to a shop and pay for it.
Same here. I liked the method employed in Arx Fatalis. In that game, the PC can pay a craftsman to work on it, or choose to work on it themselves, but their skill comes into play, and though they may repair its condition to be more serviceable , the quality of their repair could be lacking a professional's touch, and lesson its overall quality, from what it had originally been when it was new. This effect changes with the quality of their own skill.
thebruce wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 6:32 am
but I really hope inXile leaves out alignments and all that jazz. I just want to play my character's class how I would play them, not try to align my playing with an additional ethic. But I digress!
They can if it's not a roleplaying game. ;)

*Else how could the game know the character's ethics? Or know when to prohibit or restrict items & quests from the PC?
Consider a sentient rune-sword that doesn't like goodie-two-shoes characters at all, and won't be used by them... How does it know?

Alignment represents the character's own committed personal beliefs; their internal (possibly life long) moral filter that they won't deviate from lightly—though it should be possible for them to (IMO). PS:Torment starts the PC off as true-neutral, and adjusts it over the course of the game, as-per the player's choices. This does have an effect, and does restrict the PC's options in certain ways... but it doesn't stop the player from playing the character as they choose to —it just commits them to their past; as it should... accurately reflecting their in-game personality.

*Personally, I'd have it that it restricts dialog that is flat-out uncharacteristic, unless allowed as a lie; (for those that would).
**Of course, spells, loss, and other traumatic situations could (IMO should —potentially) cause a shift in alignment.
*** I've seen other alignment systems than D&D's, and some of those I like better.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by thebruce » May 23rd, 2017, 3:46 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 11:56 am
> but I really hope inXile leaves out alignments and all that jazz.

They can if it's not a roleplaying game. ;)

*Else how could the game know the character's ethics? Or know when to prohibit or restrict items & quests from the PC?
Consider a sentient rune-sword that doesn't like goodie-two-shoes characters at all, and won't be used by them... How does it know?

Alignment represents the character's own committed personal beliefs; their internal (possibly life long) moral filter that they won't deviate from lightly—though it should be possible for them to (IMO). PS:Torment starts the PC off as true-neutral, and adjusts it over the course of the game, as-per the player's choices. This does have an effect, and does restrict the PC's options in certain ways... but it doesn't stop the player from playing the character as they choose to —it just commits them to their past; as it should... accurately reflecting their in-game personality.

*Personally, I'd have it that it restricts dialog that is flat-out uncharacteristic, unless allowed as a lie; (for those that would).
**Of course, spells, loss, and other traumatic situations could (IMO should —potentially) cause a shift in alignment.
*** I've seen other alignment systems than D&D's, and some of those I like better.
First, you don't have to have explicit moral/alignment/ethic metrics in order to have an RPG. That much is obvious, and I can't see how you could possibly defend that view...

Second, "Consider a sentient rune-sword that doesn't like goodie-two-shoes characters at all, and won't be used by them... How does it know?", Well, if a game were to build in that type of item use dynamic without employing character alignment metrics, it would be based on how *I* played the character, how my character affected the world, or at the very least merely by whether I choose to let my character use an item that would be out of character the way I play him.
BT never had that type of alignment use dyamic limitation, and it was perfectly fine.
So nope, I want to build characters that I'll play how I see fit (good or evil) rather than having my play style restricted to a character ethic attribute. Yes, I realize that a 'class' is practically speaking the same sort of character structure as an alignment, but I see class as very thematically different than alignment, and adding alignment adds another dimension to character ability that I really simply don't desire. In Bard's Tale! (I need to keep adding that, because I'm not saying it's a universally undesireable RPG mechanic, I just don't desire it in BT :P)
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Gizmo » May 23rd, 2017, 5:22 pm

thebruce wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 3:46 pm
First, you don't have to have explicit moral/alignment/ethic metrics in order to have an RPG. That much is obvious, and I can't see how you could possibly defend that view...
Allow be to begin: :mrgreen:

I think that it IS required in some aspect, to allow the game to know the character. If the game doesn't care, then I doubt it's an RPG. I don't consider Diablo or Titan Quest as RPGs; ('Action RPG' is an abominable term), there is no interaction or non-trivial choice or consequence from any situation those characters encounter. You simply get quests and kill things... That's not roleplaying, that's arcade gameplay; that's like Cadash. Do you think Cadash is an RPG? I don't even consider Grimrock an RPG; though technically the scope of the game had no NPCs or choices to make... meaning it didn't matter at all if the PCs were altruistic or psychotic; any alignment would have basically done the very same thing in the situation; which was 'run for your life and get out'.

In games like that, the characters are just part of the UI; you pick a mage if you want the spell casting menu. If there is no significance placed upon the role (or personality) in these games... How then can it be a roleplaying game?
__
*Fallout & BG1 both had an interesting situation in an inn. For Fallout, it was a man with a pistol to a woman's head, threatening to shoot her. For BG1 it was a grieving drunk man who had lost his son, and was spoiling for a fight. In each case the PC had to handle it as they saw fit.


Fallout didn't have alignments, but Fallout didn't really need them —everything in the game remembers how it was treated; whole towns can hate the PC indefinitely for past transgressions, and the reputation system in that game had teeth. Actions could give the PC titles, and the game tracked Karma. If you were evil or callous enough to loot graves, you'd get the grave digger epithet and a penalty to karma. If you became a slaver, you got that tattooed on your face; where everyone can see it for the rest of the game. Fallout didn't have an alignment mechanic, but it made up for it in spades by actually including some of what that mechanic abstractly represents; a reflection of one's past behavior.

Second, "Consider a sentient rune-sword that doesn't like goodie-two-shoes characters at all, and won't be used by them... How does it know?", Well, if a game were to build in that type of item use dynamic without employing character alignment metrics, it would be based on how *I* played the character, how my character affected the world, or at the very least merely by whether I choose to let my character use an item that would be out of character the way I play him.
I don't see how that that's any different from Planescape—aside from not printing the alignment on-screen somewhere. Planescape DOES base it on how the player plays the character, and how their character affects the world. The issue comes when you want something that requires a different alignment, and haven't behaved that way... and so cannot get it... but this is as it should be, no?

BT never had that type of alignment use dyamic limitation, and it was perfectly fine.
So nope, I want to build characters that I'll play how I see fit (good or evil) rather than having my play style restricted to a character ethic attribute.
In D&D the game restricts the Paladin class to lawful good characters; because you have to be one to be a Paladin; it's part & parcel. If the game instead of imposing that restriction allowed you to pick the Paladin class, and based it how you played the character, and how your character affected the world, then it would need to strip your PC of their title and abilities as soon as you broke with the code; and the PC would no longer BE a Paladin. I have no problem with that, btw. Fallen Paladins are a thing in D&D.

Another restriction is party composition... Certain alignments just can't co-exist with others. You wouldn't have Batman and the Joker in the same party unless they were handcuffed, and it was temporary.

All of these make sense to me, do they not seem reasonable to you?

**Consider the quest designer, and having to make quests for a party that is 30% heroic, 20% avarice, and 50% murderous.
And then ask why that party doen't self destruct, or several not get killed during the night —each night, in every town, or isolated roadside?
(And how they can be accepted in places they've been to before?)
Yes, I realize that a 'class' is practically speaking the same sort of character structure as an alignment, but I see class as very thematically different than alignment, and adding alignment adds another dimension to character ability that I really simply don't desire.
I don't see it that way, and agree that it's different from alignment; so apparently we agree on this first part. ;)

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by thebruce » May 23rd, 2017, 7:47 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 5:22 pm
thebruce wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 3:46 pm
First, you don't have to have explicit moral/alignment/ethic metrics in order to have an RPG. That much is obvious, and I can't see how you could possibly defend that view...
Allow be to begin: :mrgreen:

I think that it IS required in some aspect, to allow the game to know the character. If the game doesn't care, then I doubt it's an RPG. I don't consider Diablo or Titan Quest as RPGs
Ah, ok, so you have your own definition of an RPG which fits what you prefer to see in the game, got it.
I don't agree, and I find it impossible to believe that you'd find any kind of general support for the no-true-scotsman premise that a "real" RPG must include character alignment.

Fallout didn't have alignments, but Fallout didn't really need them —everything in the game remembers how it was treated; whole towns can hate the PC indefinitely for past transgressions, and the reputation system in that game had teeth. Actions could give the PC titles, and the game tracked Karma.
This is exactly what I was referring to in the my previous comment. My character plays how *I* play it, and the game can react to that, however developers choose to incorporate lasting effects of my choices. That is nothing like a character alignment attribute that restricts what I can do, above and beyond other basic attributes I've chosen for my character; and, again, while mechanically speaking alignment is just another character attribute, I don't prefer to see such an attribute explicitly defineable in a Bard's Tale game.


I don't see how that that's any different from Planescape—aside from not printing the alignment on-screen somewhere. Planescape DOES base it on how the player plays the character, and how their character affects the world. The issue comes when you want something that requires a different alignment, and haven't behaved that way... and so cannot get it... but this is as it should be, no?
No, I simplyt don't want alignment as yet another character trait that defines what I can and cannot do in BT4. Moral choices are made by me as I play the game. If my choices for the character affect the world, great. But that's not the same thing as defining that alignment before gameplay, let alone having the alignment itself force choices on me. My BT characters will be good/evil/peacful/chaotic as I play them.
Heck if the game showed me where my characters were depicted on a graph of alignments, I'd be fine with that - but only insofar as it's a visualization of my character gameplay; and because of that (how I play) it could affect the world (I could live with that new mechanic in BT4, at least). Again, not the same as choosing alignment(s) in character creation, which BT has never done. At best, it may have been implied in the class, but never was it a tangible attribute.

In D&D the game restricts the Paladin class to lawful good characters; because you have to be one to be a Paladin; it's part & parcel. If the game instead of imposing that restriction allowed you to pick the Paladin class, and based it how you played the character, and how your character affected the world, then it would need to strip your PC of their title and abilities as soon as you broke with the code; and the PC would no longer BE a Paladin. I have no problem with that, btw. Fallen Paladins are a thing in D&D.
Yup. And like I said above, you could infer an alignment from some classes. In this case, would I create a paladin character who did evil things? Likely not. But the game could be designed to have class affect worldly things (BT did this). Denying your class wasn't a thing, but it could have been. One way BT played it out was allowing or disallowing certain item use. Monks not being able to use most weapons and armour - based on class. They could have opened it and had a monk allowed to use it, but perhaps then they'd be anywhere from MUCH less effective to being banished from whatever order or discipline, like fallen paladins. There are many ways to incorporate my character choices into gameplay without having me explicitly define a character alignment attribute, which again, simply, I wouldn't prefer to see in BT4.

All of these make sense to me, do they not seem reasonable to you?
All of those do not incorporate character alignment as an explicit independent attribute, especially static from character creation, that affects the world.
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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Gizmo » May 23rd, 2017, 8:52 pm

thebruce wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 7:47 pm
Ah, ok, so you have your own definition of an RPG which fits what you prefer to see in the game, got it.
That's like telling someone they have their own interpretation of gravity, or of what the Sun is.

Or perhaps (to be closer to subject), of what a racing game is, where one says it's not an auto racing game because its gameplay is about the business side of it, and the races are all non-interactive cutscenes that only affect advertisement performance; and the other says, "It is because it has race cars in it!" :lol:

( :geek: Race cars == leveling up & hitpoints)
I don't agree, and I find it impossible to believe that you'd find any kind of general support for the no-true-scotsman premise that a "real" RPG must include character alignment.
The alignment mechanic by itself is meaningless. Its mechanical purpose is to restrict**; that's what it's for. It's moot if the (game never uses it. There are situations in some RPGs where the alignment is required to be of a specific one to proceed.)

**Same as any RPG... its purpose is to restrict the player's options specifically to what the PC is actually capable of doing. This is why FO3 is so messed up, because the player can affect manual targeted shots with no gun skill; shots the PC (as a novice) should never be able to make.

An alignment is partly restriction, partly a kind of honor badge; one that you stop wearing if you fall short of its precepts. (This goes either way)
It can serve as a restriction of what the PC cannot do —perhaps until they do it... but it can also serve as the badge in situations where not having it would prevent further progress. The diabolic psycho PC can kill anyone they choose, at random —it's an option for them; while a more compassionate alignment most probably could not do that on a whim... It's just not their option. The same should be said for visiting NPC's houses and robbing them blind, but alas... most RPGs don't enforce that :evil:. The recent King's Bounty actually makes a point of telling the player that it's okay to steal anything they find. :lol:

I am not strictly against situations where the player decides on a personality shift, but that should change their alignment, and any spot checks should usually be of past history rather than of the moment. Still... doing that can be seen as out of character. Imagine Geralt killing Dandelion unprovoked on a whim; and he says, "His lute was out of tune, he was ruining the song". Small wonder that's not an option in the game.

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Re: Skills and Spells suggestion thread

Post by Drool » May 23rd, 2017, 9:49 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 5:22 pm
I think that it IS required in some aspect, to allow the game to know the character. If the game doesn't care, then I doubt it's an RPG.
So you don't consider Bard's Tale or Wasteland an RPG either. Okay.

Crosmando wrote:
May 23rd, 2017, 12:53 am
So you're fine with spellcasters getting dozens of spells, but giving the rogue 3 new abilities is "too complex"?
Yes.
Also you do know that rogues disarmed traps in classic BT, it's a natural evolution of that that they can use traps of their own.
I'm well aware that they had a percentile based version of TRZP, yes.
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