Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

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Priest4hire
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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Priest4hire » July 6th, 2015, 12:40 am

Ah, one of the three D&D games Dreamforge made on the same engine. I played them back in the day, and remember how they claimed to have SVGA like graphics without the need for a SVGA card. The other two were Menzoberranzan and Ravenloft: Strahd's Possession. I didn't really think of them since they use Dungeon Master style real-time combat and had free movement. Yeah, you could turn on a grid but I never did. Not back in the day and not now. Seemed a lot more natural to be able to move freely, and rather silly to turn grid motion on.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » July 6th, 2015, 8:13 am

Priest4hire wrote:Ah, one of the three D&D games Dreamforge made on the same engine. I played them back in the day, and remember how they claimed to have SVGA like graphics without the need for a SVGA card. The other two were Menzoberranzan and Ravenloft: Strahd's Possession. I didn't really think of them since they use Dungeon Master style real-time combat and had free movement. Yeah, you could turn on a grid but I never did. Not back in the day and not now. Seemed a lot more natural to be able to move freely, and rather silly to turn grid motion on.
Menzo at least, was unplayable on grid. The reason is because of Q&A. The maps had obstructions in them that if on the grid, were impossible to step around... You had to maneuver passed them with free move enabled. The grid seems to have been an untested afterthought.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Crosmando » August 2nd, 2015, 3:49 am

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » August 2nd, 2015, 6:34 am

thebruce wrote:Wow, how is Dragon Wars not in this list yet? :D
youtube
I just minutes ago found Dragon Wars on my Interplay Anthology CDs; I'd never noticed it before. :shock:
[It's tucked away in sub folder on the anthology's Stonekeep disk... and... printed on the label.]

It installed; along with Decent... So those will be the next games I have a go at. :lol: Witcher 3 and Pillars get back-burnered

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by ZiN » August 2nd, 2015, 6:48 am

Avoid playing the PC version of Dragon Wars, if possible. It's the worst version in every way. The Amiga one is the best in all regards, followed by the Apple IIGS one.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » August 2nd, 2015, 7:01 am

ZiN wrote:Avoid playing the PC version of Dragon Wars, if possible. It's the worst version in every way. The Amiga one is the best in all regards, followed by the Apple IIGS one.
Never had an Apple, and my Amiga 2000, got peed on by a mouse, while in storage; it never worked the same after that. The anthology version is the only version I have access to, and I don't really know what version it's based on; but I would assume it's the DOS version.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by ZiN » August 2nd, 2015, 7:16 am

Gizmo wrote:I would assume it's the DOS version.

It most likely is. No wonder:
Gizmo wrote:It's tucked away in sub folder on the anthology's Stonekeep disk...
I take it you don't want to use emulators then. WinUAE and KEGS32 are the ones i use and they work nicely.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » August 2nd, 2015, 7:25 am

ZiN wrote:I take it you don't want to use emulators then. WinUAE and KEGS32 are the ones i use and they work nicely.
I don't have the ROMS, and don't have the software. One is not entitled to the ROMS unless one owns the hardware.

I never bought the other versions of the games, so I'm not entitled to those either. I have the DOS version.
Last edited by Gizmo on August 2nd, 2015, 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Priest4hire » August 2nd, 2015, 12:45 pm

Actually, not true with the ROMs. You can buy a copy of Amiga Forever and it includes the ROMs and OSs, all entirely legal. It's US $10, $30 or $50 depending on the version. A quick check on eBay turned up the Amiga version of Dragon Wars for $30 US, plus shipping. Having purchased this copy, sending no money to anyone owning the rights or involved in the production or even affecting them in any way measurable by science, you can feel entitled.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Crosmando » August 2nd, 2015, 12:49 pm

That has to be the silliest exchange I've heard in a while. I think the only people who care about decades old software are the the grognards like us who want to play it.
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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » August 2nd, 2015, 2:08 pm

I can certainly see the improvements of the Amiga version. 8-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veD6GNf74zg

I've looked at Amiga Forever Several times over the years.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by thebruce » August 3rd, 2015, 8:48 am

huh, I've only played the PC version. The amiga one does look marginally improve. I expect the audio would be MUCH better on Amiga though as well :)
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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Elth » August 8th, 2015, 7:09 am

jrodman wrote:
.. are not turn-based.
True, It was a cool down based blobber but pretty darn close to Bards Tale in all but combat.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by ZiN » August 8th, 2015, 11:59 am

Elth wrote:
jrodman wrote:
.. are not turn-based.
True, It was a cool down based blobber but pretty darn close to Bards Tale in all but combat.
I was a big fan of EoB, as it was among the early games, that were based on 2nd edition AD&D, which was the big thing in those times. Eye of the Beholder though, was inspired by the Dungeon Master game, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons' Forgotten Realms setting.

Indeed, it was similar in some ways to Bard's Tale, such as navigating through a pseudo-3D, first-person view representation, of a 2D grid maze. Plus the usual RPG stuff, like creating characters, fighting monsters, and finding (magic) stuff.

The physical manipulation of the environment (levers, pressure plates, secret buttons, etc.) in EoB, was an improvement over BT, and is a thing, later the Grimrocks also did fairly well. I believe Bard's Tale IV has a good chance, to exceed all previous cRPGs at this. (Though Underworld Ascendant is also going for this feat, i think.)

"Cooldown-based" sounds funny, but is quite fitting. Will BT4 have cooldowns? DM, EoB and Grimrock, had some real-time, reflex-based puzzles as well. I don't think we need those in BT4.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » August 8th, 2015, 12:10 pm

The SSI Gold Box games were closer to Bard's Tale than their Legend series ~as far as non-combat exploration goes.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Drool » August 9th, 2015, 3:59 am

ZiN wrote:DM, EoB and Grimrock, had some real-time, reflex-based puzzles as well. I don't think we need those in BT4.
I certainly hope not. That was one of the worst things about Grimrock, especially the puzzles that had their timing so razor-fine that you had to move around backwards because turning the party took too much time. I can handle doing the Beholder Two-Step for combat, and I could even manage Grimrock's awful magic system, but those timed puzzles were just unbearable.
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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Crosmando » August 9th, 2015, 4:56 am

Yeah, some of those real-time puzzles in Grimrock were so annoying and were entirely dependent on the "twitch" skill of the player. Timed puzzles are only OK in my book if the timer isn't real-time (seconds) but every step takes a certain amount of time, so you can still complete them at your own pace.
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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Gizmo » August 9th, 2015, 12:16 pm

Drool wrote:
ZiN wrote:DM, EoB and Grimrock, had some real-time, reflex-based puzzles as well. I don't think we need those in BT4.
I certainly hope not. That was one of the worst things about Grimrock, especially the puzzles that had their timing so razor-fine that you had to move around backwards because turning the party took too much time. I can handle doing the Beholder Two-Step for combat, and I could even manage Grimrock's awful magic system, but those timed puzzles were just unbearable.
My gosh; you must hate dungeon crawlers. Grimrock was a superb example of one, and you list some of its high points as awful. :? The magic system was great, the timed puzzles were great [IMO]; moving backwards was sometimes part of the puzzle. Combat ~the EoB two-step as some call it, was often impossible; unless they could lure the monster into at least a 4x4 room. There it was possible ~even though an EoB developer came into the Blog, and warned them about it in advance. It's much improved in Grimrock 2.

*Also: Problems with the timed puzzles almost always came from players stuck on an optional challenge; and/or players who did not pay enough attention to their overloaded party. Overloaded characters get the snail icon [condition] and slow the party down. A slowed party might not have a chance with a slimly timed challenge.

** Players that ran the game below spec could have problems with these puzzles as well.

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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » August 9th, 2015, 12:55 pm

Dodging multiple rows of fireballs with perfect timing (with an unencumbered party) was necessary to open the iron door to leave one of the levels (maybe 6? 7?) in LoG1, iirc. That was not optional and was probably the second hardest challenge in the game. I had to retry quite a few times before succeeding and it was extremely frustrating. Any "puzzle" which requires repeatedly training for a precise sequence of actions, I view as annoying. Having these kinds of "puzzles" in BT4 would be a complete turn-off for me; I never played LoG2 as a result of my LoG1 experience.

In general, I didn't enjoy the clickfest (as a separate issue from puzzle timing) in LoG1. Some of the physical manipulation, such as with banks of switches was okay, but I don't actually want to see that in BT4 either, since I would like to play it entirely from a keyboard.

(Now, lest I seem completely negative about LoG, I did enjoy character creation and development (and even wrote a strategy guide about this after I completed the game: http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2833) and I liked the monster graphics better than what I saw in the BT4 in-engine demo video. The mod editor was still quite buggy when I tried it, but I am glad that they made one. Would love to see a BTCS2 along with BT4.)
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Re: Other First-Person Turn-Based Party-Based RPGs

Post by Crosmando » August 9th, 2015, 12:55 pm

Having real-time puzzle elements in a turn-based game is downright inappropriate imo.
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