BT4 Fidelity (Split From: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade)

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Re: BT4 Fidelity (Split From: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade)

Post by Gizmo » October 5th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Yeah... but the involvement could mean, "What is this byte actually do?".

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Re: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » October 5th, 2019, 7:40 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:57 pm
Drool wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:43 pm
BT1 is more Noblesse's bag than mine, but I recall the game being rather rich for the time. For 1986, and without an external journal, they've put a rather fair amount inside. "Big bad foozle" and "paper thin" are gross understatements.
Most games of the time resorted to journal entries to achieve this i.e. Pools of Radiance, Wasteland, Dragon Wars etc. Bard's Tale 1 did not do this.
BT1 did not have journal entries, correct. But, it did have a story and some notion of quests to progress through the game. You learn about Tarjan in the sewers (and hence gain a means of access to his temple in the process). You learn more about Tarjan in the catacombs and also encounter NPCs such as Bashar Kavilor and the undead King Aildrek. Through various hints at the taverns and in Harkyn's Castle, you learn about the Crystal Golem. But, yes, the game is lighter on story than the later entries in the series or games from the late 80's and early 90's, such as you list above. BT1 was published in 1985 on some platforms - a lot happened to game design in the intervening 3 to 5 years.
KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:57 pm
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:04 pm
Exactly! Obvious technological limitation of the 80's that any "modern" game would overcome. Skara Brae would've had an ocean next to it.... Mangar's spell of eternal winter would've frozen the ships in port.
Does that also explain the difference between Skara Brae in BT1 and BT3?
You should consider the sarcasm factor of ZiN's comment and my response to it.
(There is a tendency of Barrows Deep advocates to claim that the original BT games were only made the way they were because of the technological limitations of the time. We were sarcastically mocking this. At least, I was. And I'm pretty sure that ZiN was too.)
KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:57 pm
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 3:51 pm
Huh? Where did those strawmen come from? Would you kindly toss them on the haystack off to the side so that we can keep sight of the actual argument?
If he had any noteworthy involvement, inXile would've mentioned it.
You are the one making the accusation, so the burden of proof lies with you. InXile said he was involved and we know he was involved in the Krome remasters (according to Krome devs posts on the forums here and on Steam) so I see no reason to doubt it.
The accusation that inXile hasn't shown what part(s) of Barrows Deep Cranford was involved with? That's backed up by the fact that inXile hasn't shown what part(s) of Barrows Deep Cranford was involved with.

As far as the Krome remasters go, I know that he was involved with those to some small extent. And, his endorsement video for the BT2 remaster (iirc) was much appreciated. Have you seen a similar endorsement video from him for Barrows Deep? I haven't. Him stopping by a booth at E3 to briefly look at Barrows Deep doesn't really count.
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by Drool » October 6th, 2019, 2:05 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:57 pm
Sorry, but that is not true. Many of streets coming off the town square are completely different.
Completely different? I wouldn't say so. Yes, there are differences, but it's more a matter of compression and elimination (via roads being blocked with rubble). Furthermore, BT4 also cuts out large amounts of the city map (it's more similar to 3 than 1), so I'm not sure why you're attacking compressing the map while defending rotating and compressing the map. Is it better because it's completely throwing the map out and not even pretending?
Most games of the time resorted to journal entries to achieve this i.e. Pools of Radiance, Wasteland, Dragon Wars etc. Bard's Tale 1 did not do this.
Pool of Radiance: 1988
Wasteland: 1988
Dragon Wars: 1989
Bard's Tale 1: 1985

Yes. Bard's Tale didn't do something that didn't appear until three years after it was released.
By the time BT3 came out it was competing with games like Pool's of Radiance and Wasteland which did a vastly better job in those areas. Again, I am not saying BT3 is a bad game (I love it), just that aspect.
Bard's Tale 3 still did a fantastic job with the limitations they had, and were able to provide plenty of lore completely in-game without resorting to a journal, which is pretty impressive.

And, just how much of Pool's lore was actually in the game versus how much is being brought in from the fact that it was an existing IP? There's the lore of Tyranthraxus, but that's about it. I'd place the Gelidia journal entry up against Pool any day.
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 7:40 pm
As far as the Krome remasters go, I know that he was involved with those to some small extent.
Was pretty much limited to old drawings, wasn't it?
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » October 6th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Drool wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 2:05 pm
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 7:40 pm
As far as the Krome remasters go, I know that he was involved with those to some small extent.
Was pretty much limited to old drawings, wasn't it?
I thought Krome said that they were able to talk with him a bit too. But, yeah, they did use a couple of his drawings as a basis for character portraits, as you say. I want to say it was the female rogue and maybe also that bare-chested male warrior with the bloody axe.
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by KorganBloodAxe » October 6th, 2019, 9:58 pm

Drool wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Completely different? I wouldn't say so. Yes, there are differences, but it's more a matter of compression and elimination (via roads being blocked with rubble). Furthermore, BT4 also cuts out large amounts of the city map (it's more similar to 3 than 1), so I'm not sure why you're attacking compressing the map while defending rotating and compressing the map. Is it better because it's completely throwing the map out and not even pretending?
I am not defending either. All I was stating is there had already been significant changes from BT1 to BT3. The changes are a little more in BTIV but there is already a precedent for change. That is the only point I was trying to make. I've already discussed the directional/harbour issue - it can be explained by either magic, natural event or the work of the new gods. You are entitled to think that impossible but I happen to think it is possible. What is unlikely is that either of us will convince the other so I'm happy to leave it at that (on this point ;) )

Drool wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 2:05 pm
Yes. Bard's Tale didn't do something that didn't appear until three years after it was released.

Bard's Tale 3 still did a fantastic job with the limitations they had, and were able to provide plenty of lore completely in-game without resorting to a journal, which is pretty impressive.

And, just how much of Pool's lore was actually in the game versus how much is being brought in from the fact that it was an existing IP? There's the lore of Tyranthraxus, but that's about it. I'd place the Gelidia journal entry up against Pool any day.
I'm not sure how this helps your point. Getting back to my original point, that the almost zero lore in BT1&2 and small amount in BT3 does not contradict the world of BTIV. Whether the lore is in-game or in the manual makes zero difference. I already agreed that there is a basic amount in BT3 but again, none of that contradicts the world of BTIV.

I will now dump the extent of the "lore" of BT1 from the manual:
  • In The Bard's Tale the city of Skara Brae is threatened by an evil mage called Mangar. You must find Mangar and "persuade" him to release the once-harmonious city from his evil control.
  • The descriptions of the races, classes and places in the game - pretty minimal descriptions
That is it. NOTHING ELSE! At least Bard's Tale 2 has a short spiel from Saradon (less than half a page) explaining the general gist of what you need to do to win the game.

Now, in game (I may of missed a couple):
  • Know this, that a man called Tarjan, thought to many to be insane, had through wizardly powers, proclaimed himself a god in Skara Brae a hundred years ago. His image is locked in stone until made whole again...
  • The ancient witch king yet lives...
  • Part of a riddle: Past warscapes fought by men long dead, and treasures lost on bloodied fields, the One God lifts his thorn-crowned head, and lays a strength on friendly...
  • You stand in the antechamber of Mangar the Dark, evil Archmage of Skara Brae. Mangar glares at you with deep hatred. 'Die, mortals!' he screams.
    With a wave of his hand a few of his close friends drop by. They don't look like a fun group.
  • Kylearan, the good Archmage, appears before you in a flash of light. 'Well done!' he cries, beaming. 'Your quest in Skara Brae is now finished! The evil one is now defeated, and his spell of winter will soon end. You will all, as a symbol of my gratitude, receive gold and experience bonus of 300,000 units. Fare well and live long!
There is a few introductions before a couple of fights i.e. "You have entered the living chambers of Bashar Kavilor, the High Priest. He screams, 'Infidel! Face now the wrath of a servant of the Mad One!". These descriptions do nothing to build up any form of established lore and are common in Foozle hunts i.e. Wizardry 3. I still have all my game boxes from the 80's and the only one with less detail is Might and Magic 1 - it doesn't even attempt anything apart from "The object of an adventure game is the game itself, rather than a particular goal.". Phantasie (1985) has a story on the first page to set the scene and some background on your task and explains the lore of the Nik and his Black Knights. If BT1 had something like that which didn't gel with the lore and setting of BTIV then I would agree with you.

I'm really struggling to see what contradicts the world of BTIV here. But I see plenty that the designers and writers drew from i.e. character and place names.
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 6:16 pm
Drool wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 2:05 pm
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 7:40 pm
As far as the Krome remasters go, I know that he was involved with those to some small extent.
Was pretty much limited to old drawings, wasn't it?
I thought Krome said that they were able to talk with him a bit too. But, yeah, they did use a couple of his drawings as a basis for character portraits, as you say. I want to say it was the female rogue and maybe also that bare-chested male warrior with the bloody axe.
Agreed. He was also consulted and gave his blessing to the changes to Garth's (which results in Bedder's Bank having storage).

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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by Drool » October 7th, 2019, 1:37 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 9:58 pm
I'm not sure how this helps your point. Getting back to my original point, that the almost zero lore in BT1&2 and small amount in BT3 does not contradict the world of BTIV.
Tarjan's demotion from god trying to unmake reality to lackey trying to free the new big bad is pretty major in my mind. As is everyone magically forgetting things that happened within the lifespans of non-humans is another. Did Nathan Long take inspiration from The Force Awakens?
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » October 7th, 2019, 4:44 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 9:58 pm
I will now dump the extent of the "lore" of BT1 from the manual:
  • In The Bard's Tale the city of Skara Brae is threatened by an evil mage called Mangar. You must find Mangar and "persuade" him to release the once-harmonious city from his evil control.
  • The descriptions of the races, classes and places in the game - pretty minimal descriptions
Hold up. There is more lore, just not in the form of story text:
  • The copy protection on BT1 involved answering questions from time to time in the Review Board. Some of those questions had directional references (positions of locations/streets relative to landmarks), which have been invalidated by Barrows Deep. "What street snakes north of the Gran Plaz?", for example.
  • Some items, which were non-unique in the BT series, have been made unique in Barrows Deep. Making them unique in Barrows Deep contradicts the original series.
KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 9:58 pm
Now, in game (I may of missed a couple):
  • The giant spider theme of the sewers. All of the special encounters were groups of various kinds of spiders. A wall had a spider etched on it. There was the "spider god" (Spinner) statue in one of the rooms.
  • The "something is not right here..." hint near one of the more identifiable wraparound points of the map.
  • The barkeep hints and various riddles around the Crystal Golem (and Crystal Sword).
  • "To the tower fly; a mad one die; once lost an eye" or whatever rhyme in a room off to the side of Bashar's chambers.
  • Sphinx the Grey Dragon, Bashar's pet.
  • The sleeping dragons in Mangar's tower.
  • "Thor is the greatest son of Odin."
  • The Witch King Aildrek ("now a creature of darkness") encounter and Tarjan's lost eye.
  • "Fifteen doors east and thou art there; on souls they feast in dark one's lair"....
  • The Stasis Chamber in the Catacombs.
  • The Soul Sucker special encounters in the Catacombs and Mangar's Tower.
  • Baron Harkyn's throne and its class selectivity, should you choose not to PHDO or APAR. His Captain of Guard (Master Ninja - first creature that can crit party members). Other parts of the castle include Slave Quarters (nasty fight with some Mangar/Mandar Guards) and the Baron's bed chambers.
  • The 6 Berserkers encounter in Harkyn's 1 and the green robes. The 396 Berserkers encounter (the Barracks) in Harkyn's 3.
Probably more, but those are other tidbits that come immediately to mind. Maybe they don't mesh into a coherent story, but they are definitely lore. The lack of major story in BT1 does not mean a lack of lore in the game.
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Re: BT4 Fidelity (Split From: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade)

Post by ZZGO » October 7th, 2019, 10:16 pm

Most actual BT universe lore comes from Mike Stackpole's writing for BT3. Which wasn't endorsed by Michael Cranford at all, as he had split with Interplay by the time BT3 was made The entire BT3 sourcecode was rewritten, too.
Yet still nobody seems to question that BT3 was authoritative for BT lore. So why should BT4 not be, which is at least endorsed by Cranford - should that not mean it is more authoritative than BT3?

As for lore, I really liked the original BT1 cluebook novella and all the extra characters and bits of info therein. Alas, we sadly never heard of Skara Brae's sister city Hamelon again.
(My guess is that the book's copyright is separate from the BT IP and thus inXile - and Krome for the Remasters - couldn't have used it even if they wanted.)

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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by KorganBloodAxe » October 8th, 2019, 2:19 am

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 4:44 pm
Hold up. There is more lore, just not in the form of story text:
  • The copy protection on BT1 involved answering questions from time to time in the Review Board. Some of those questions had directional references (positions of locations/streets relative to landmarks), which have been invalidated by Barrows Deep. "What street snakes north of the Gran Plaz?", for example.
  • Some items, which were non-unique in the BT series, have been made unique in Barrows Deep. Making them unique in Barrows Deep contradicts the original series.
The direction thing has already been discussed and I don't think it don't think that is going anywhere. I'm interested in the items you are referring to though, care to elaborate?
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 4:44 pm
  • The giant spider theme of the sewers. All of the special encounters were groups of various kinds of spiders. A wall had a spider etched on it. There was the "spider god" (Spinner) statue in one of the rooms.

    *Snipped by KorganBloodAxe*
  • The 6 Berserkers encounter in Harkyn's 1 and the green robes. The 396 Berserkers encounter (the Barracks) in Harkyn's 3.
Probably more, but those are other tidbits that come immediately to mind. Maybe they don't mesh into a coherent story, but they are definitely lore. The lack of major story in BT1 does not mean a lack of lore in the game.
I meant to include the witch king and thor one, but the rest I didn't really consider worthy of further discussion and they are really just throwaway flavour text. I'm talking about more substantial lore - things that explain the background or the motivations of the enemy or heroes. Things like the bits that explain the relationship between Mangar and Tarjan (which there are). Things that explain why things are the way they are in the world. Things like the Lanatir story in Gelidia (like the other poster referred to) or the story of Cyanis and Alliria.

I'm also struggling to see how any of it contradicts BTIV. Apart from the issues related to the directional aspect of BTIV what else is the issue?

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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by ZiN » October 8th, 2019, 11:34 am

Drool wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 1:37 pm
Tarjan's demotion from god trying to unmake reality to lackey trying to free the new big bad is pretty major in my mind. As is everyone magically forgetting things that happened within the lifespans of non-humans is another. Did Nathan Long take inspiration from The Force Awakens?
I certainly feel the same about Bard's Tale as Star Wars. These "sequels" are pretty much destroying my long-time favourite series.

As for Mangar, Lagoth and Tarjan in Barrows Deep, they sucked. They looked awful, their battles weren't memorable and their story also non-existent. There was so much potential for a time and dimension travelling Tarjan, hiding some of his essence in Gelidia, Kinestia, Tenebrosia, etc. They threw everything out and instead went for fantasy-Scotland. Did they ever explain how and why the 3 of them came back? I don't remember anything, besides stupid humour and blatant namedropping. Not to mention how lame the new end-boss is. Another very big letdown (besides the game not being a dungeon-crawling RPG) is the abysmal bestiary: Instead of the dozens of cool and unique monsters from BT 1, 2 and especially 3, 90% of the fights are against generic cultists, bandits, knights, goblins and skeletons.

I find it strange that a few old-school fans actually like the new game, but then again there are also Star Wars fans who like the sequels. Good for them I guess...

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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by Drool » October 8th, 2019, 2:31 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 2:19 am
the rest I didn't really consider worthy of further discussion and they are really just throwaway flavour text.
They are certainly minor, but what is lore but flavor text?

Speaking of... "stabbing up into the sky like an obsidian dagger, Shadow Rock is utterly alien to the surrounding landscape." I don't recall seeing a towering obsidian dagger in BT4 (or a mountain range with a Dwarven mine in it), but I will admit I haven't gotten very far in it. Or did the Fatherites just level those large landmarks?
ZZGO wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 10:16 pm
Yet still nobody seems to question that BT3 was authoritative for BT lore. So why should BT4 not be, which is at least endorsed by Cranford - should that not mean it is more authoritative than BT3?
The lore in 3 didn't contradict or massively retcon the previous games? Also, as nice a guy as Cranford is, his stamp of approval means very little to me. I'm not going to suddenly like something because he said "this is pretty cool" at a junket. La mort de l'auteur.
(My guess is that the book's copyright is separate from the BT IP and thus inXile - and Krome for the Remasters - couldn't have used it even if they wanted.)
I believe they're included in something somewhere, but all the releases are beginning to blend together. Maybe they're linked in the version bundled with BT 2004.
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Re: BT4 Fidelity (Split From: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade)

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » October 8th, 2019, 4:25 pm

ZZGO wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 10:16 pm
Most actual BT universe lore comes from Mike Stackpole's writing for BT3. Which wasn't endorsed by Michael Cranford at all, as he had split with Interplay by the time BT3 was made The entire BT3 sourcecode was rewritten, too.
Endorsement of lore and consistency of lore are two different discussions. The discussion I've been having is about consistency of lore. The discussion about Michael Cranford wrt Barrows Deep was about his involvement with it rather than any blessing he bestowed upon it or the lore contained therein.

And, I'm not sure why a rewrite of the sourcecode would be relevant to either discussion. The lore would be part of the game data rather than part of the code.
ZZGO wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 10:16 pm
As for lore, I really liked the original BT1 cluebook novella and all the extra characters and bits of info therein. Alas, we sadly never heard of Skara Brae's sister city Hamelon again.
Agree with you here. I didn't actually read the cluebook until many years after I had first beaten the game. Aside from the time erasure stuff near the end, when the party was trapped by Mangar's forces, due to their thief's treachery, I really like the story. (And I've cited that story before as a stark contrast to the Barrows Deep novellas that Nathan Long vomited forth.)
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » October 8th, 2019, 4:57 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 2:19 am
The direction thing has already been discussed and I don't think it don't think that is going anywhere. I'm interested in the items you are referring to though, care to elaborate?
The direction thing has been discussed and is still very much an issue. The Review Board copy protection answers are further evidence in support of the fact that Barrows Deep contradicts the original lore.

As far as items go, my recollection from the Kickstarter updates or other sources is that Kael's Axe and the Firehorn were both given back stories in Barrows Deep. Those sources made them sound as though they are presented as unique items within the game. (I did not play Barrows Deep enough to verify this. The game quickly became too repulsive for me to continue that far.) Actually, here's a reference that I found: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/120778- ... rview.html
KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 2:19 am
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 7th, 2019, 4:44 pm
Probably more, but those are other tidbits that come immediately to mind. Maybe they don't mesh into a coherent story, but they are definitely lore. The lack of major story in BT1 does not mean a lack of lore in the game.
I meant to include the witch king and thor one, but the rest I didn't really consider worthy of further discussion and they are really just throwaway flavour text.
It is still lore. It tells you something about the game world.
KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 2:19 am
I'm also struggling to see how any of it contradicts BTIV. Apart from the issues related to the directional aspect of BTIV what else is the issue?
You made a claim that BT1 didn't have much story and hence there wasn't much for the Barrows Deep game to contradict in terms of lore. While agreeing that there isn't much story, I pointed out that lore is more than story and provided examples. Now as to how much of the BT1 lore is contradicted by Barrows Deep, I couldn't tell you the full extent. ZiN or Drool could probably give you a good answer for how BT3 lore is contradicted by that game. What I do know:
  • Some races have disappeared. And we somehow have varieties of humans, which were never mentioned in the originals even though the variety has an effect on Barrows Deep game play. And the previously unknown Trow suddenly make a prominent appearance in Barrows Deep. Really?
  • Classes have been replaced with archetypes. The whole way the adventuring profession is organized was suddenly changed in 100 years? Huh?
  • The way magic works has been completely changed. Many spells were thrown out and of those that survived, some did in altered form.
  • Skara Brae has been rotated 90 degrees and placed next to a sea.
  • Previously non-unique items are now unique, complete with back stories which would contradict their previous non-uniqueness.
  • Drool's point about Tarjan's demotion is yet another.
  • The change from a generic fantasy setting to a Scottish-themed setting. Neither the majority of the names in the original games nor the marketing or packaging for the games give any indication of the originals being Scottish-themed. Making Barrows Deep Scottish-themed is clearly contradictory to the generic high fantasy theme of the originals.
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Re: BT4 Fidelity (Split From: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade)

Post by Drool » October 8th, 2019, 6:16 pm

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 4:25 pm
(And I've cited that story before as a stark contrast to the Barrows Deep novellas that Nathan Long vomited forth.)
Dear God... those...
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by ZiN » October 9th, 2019, 3:20 am

Drool wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 2:31 pm
Speaking of... "stabbing up into the sky like an obsidian dagger, Shadow Rock is utterly alien to the surrounding landscape." I don't recall seeing a towering obsidian dagger in BT4 (or a mountain range with a Dwarven mine in it), but I will admit I haven't gotten very far in it. Or did the Fatherites just level those large landmarks?
It was "eaten" by the "Adir Sea" as well. If Barrows Deep had a GILL spell, perhaps you could go and find it underwater, just like the Scrapwood Tavern and the Crystal Spring. The Crystal spring would have been beautiful to behold, just watch out for rainbow dragons...

The Vale of Lost Warriors is also gone, the Cold Peak is sort of there, but there is a new higher peak to the southeast, where the Shrine used to be. Sulphur Springs teleported from the southeast to the northwest, and the Old Dwarf Mine is somewhere on the coast. Damn, those Geomancers must've been busy...

Image
Image
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 4:57 pm
ZiN or Drool could probably give you a good answer for how BT3 lore is contradicted by that game.
Well, there isn't much to tell, the whole thing is pretty dull, despite finishing it I hardly remember the details of the "story". There is a lot of "lore" which is basically some NPC parroting some info of questionable accuracy, about the events from BT3. For example, there is the "Legend of Hawkslayer", who has "slain Tarjan with the Legendary Strifespear", which is bullshit, since Tarjan killed Hawkslayer the moment he set foot in Malefia, besides Tarjan being killed by a rogue traditionally (The Thief of Fate).

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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by KorganBloodAxe » October 9th, 2019, 3:21 am

ZiN wrote:
October 9th, 2019, 3:20 am
For example, there is the "Legend of Hawkslayer", who has "slain Tarjan with the Legendary Strifespear", which is bullshit, since Tarjan killed Hawkslayer the moment he set foot in Malefia, besides Tarjan being killed by a rogue traditionally (The Thief of Fate).
The dev's have confirmed that it is intentional misinformation. Information was incredibly unreliable a few hundred years ago so it's reasonable to expect that in a fantasy world as well.
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 4:57 pm

You made a claim that BT1 didn't have much story and hence there wasn't much for the Barrows Deep game to contradict in terms of lore. While agreeing that there isn't much story, I pointed out that lore is more than story and provided examples. Now as to how much of the BT1 lore is contradicted by Barrows Deep, I couldn't tell you the full extent. ZiN or Drool could probably give you a good answer for how BT3 lore is contradicted by that game. What I do know:
  • Some races have disappeared. And we somehow have varieties of humans, which were never mentioned in the originals even though the variety has an effect on Barrows Deep game play. And the previously unknown Trow suddenly make a prominent appearance in Barrows Deep. Really?
  • Classes have been replaced with archetypes. The whole way the adventuring profession is organized was suddenly changed in 100 years? Huh?
  • The way magic works has been completely changed. Many spells were thrown out and of those that survived, some did in altered form.
  • Skara Brae has been rotated 90 degrees and placed next to a sea.
  • Previously non-unique items are now unique, complete with back stories which would contradict their previous non-uniqueness.
  • Drool's point about Tarjan's demotion is yet another.
  • The change from a generic fantasy setting to a Scottish-themed setting. Neither the majority of the names in the original games nor the marketing or packaging for the games give any indication of the originals being Scottish-themed. Making Barrows Deep Scottish-themed is clearly contradictory to the generic high fantasy theme of the originals.
I actually agree with you on the races, classes and magic system. It would of been better to keep the originals but improve them. The problem in BT1 is all the races ended up being the same after the a couple of hours gameplay i.e. max stats. They should of kept the original races and added the racial benefit system of BTIV. The classes (fighter, paladin, monk) just needed more abilities and variety (not just pushing A,A or A,B every battle).

Also happy for you have issues with the story, that is certainly personal preference. Although I beg to disagree on Tarjan, it's pretty common in fantasy literature and gaming for a defeated boss to come back in a weaker form subservient to a new boss.

My original issue was with the three of you taking issue with the Scottish theme. Firstly, while BTIV does have heavy Scottish influences there are plenty of regular generic fantasy joe npc's and generic locations all over the gameworld but especially in Skara Brae. You still have not provided anything that directly contradicts this. BT1 and the Skara Brae portion of BT3 have minimal (as provided by yourself and I) lore and while generic it could easily be applied to a Scottish theme. The technical limitations of the time contributed to the lack of definition. BT3 had a bit but it was mostly concentrated in other worlds not around Skara Brae.

Given the games came out more than 30 years ago it's reasonable that different people would have different views on what a modern Bard's Tale should look and sound like. You certainly had to use a lot more imagination back then! I'm happy to leave it at that.

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ZiN
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by ZiN » October 9th, 2019, 4:08 am

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 9th, 2019, 3:21 am
ZiN wrote:
October 9th, 2019, 3:20 am
For example, there is the "Legend of Hawkslayer", who has "slain Tarjan with the Legendary Strifespear", which is bullshit, since Tarjan killed Hawkslayer the moment he set foot in Malefia, besides Tarjan being killed by a rogue traditionally (The Thief of Fate).
The dev's have confirmed that it is intentional misinformation. Information was incredibly unreliable a few hundred years ago so it's reasonable to expect that in a fantasy world as well.
Yeah in a fantasy world that is called The Bard's Tale. The bards, who are keepers of lore and history. Especially the elven ones, for whom 150 years is nothing. They don't sing about the Seven Stars, they forget the New Gods, they don't care about what happened to hobbits and orcs, but sure enough, they remember wrongly about Hawkslayer. Not to mention they also had chronomancy (which got axed as well), which would help a bit in divining events past and future.

No matter how much the devs "confirm" and flourish "the Cranford stamp of approval", it is still retconned all over the place and is inconsistent with the original trilogy.

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KorganBloodAxe
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by KorganBloodAxe » October 9th, 2019, 4:13 am

ZiN wrote:
October 9th, 2019, 4:08 am

Yeah in a fantasy world that is called The Bard's Tale. The bards, who are keepers of lore and history. Especially the elven ones, for whom 150 years is nothing. They don't sing about the Seven Stars, they forget the New Gods, they don't care about what happened to hobbits and orcs, but sure enough, they remember wrongly about Hawkslayer. Not to mention they also had chronomancy (which got axed as well), which would help a bit in divining events past and future.
Yes. Drunk bards are a most reliable source of information :lol:

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Re: Director's Cut massive graphical downgrade

Post by Lanatir » October 9th, 2019, 7:39 am

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:57 pm
lots of yadda yadda yadda
If Bards Tale 4 is so damn good, why are more people playing the original trilogy on Steam than the 'masterwork' BT4, even if it was 'remastered' ?

Maybe, just maybe, because BT 4 sucks ?

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Drool
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Re: BT4 Fidelity

Post by Drool » October 9th, 2019, 9:57 am

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
October 9th, 2019, 4:13 am
Yes. Drunk bards are a most reliable source of information :lol:
For one, they weren't drunk. In fact, if your party got drunk, you got kicked out of the tavern. Alcohol was used to counteract a dry throat from singing. Water also worked. Bard's being barely functional alcoholics is more memetic drift in BT4. Very much like the person who wrote it only read the Cliff's Notes.

Also, when the bards did tell stories in BT3, they were exceedingly accurate; for example, the Flower Song.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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