Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

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Simmeon
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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by Simmeon » February 13th, 2018, 7:20 am

Honestly, my two cents is that it's not. For me anyway. So far nothing I've seen or heard connects the old Bards Tale games to this one other than that it's a dungeon crawler. If they just want to bring back the dungeon crawler genre, fine that's great. The problem is that they're bringing back Bards Tale, not just some first person dungeon crawler. That carries a lot of weight with it. The game so far that I've seen doesn't have anything to do with Bards Tale. It's an updated Lands of Lore with a Celtic spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYq1aK8JstI

I'm afraid this is going to piss more people off than anything. I loved Wasteland 2 but this just doesn't feel like a Bards Tale game at all and I think that's very troubling.

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 13th, 2018, 9:12 am

Simmeon wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 7:20 am
I'm afraid this is going to piss more people off than anything. I loved Wasteland 2 but this just doesn't feel like a Bards Tale game at all and I think that's very troubling.
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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by Lucius » February 14th, 2018, 6:59 pm

Gizmo wrote:
February 11th, 2018, 1:31 am
What exactly did (do) you consider BT when in combat? It transitions out of FPP; into an abstracted combat mini-game.

(...just as Realms of Arkania, and most of the Gold Box SSI titles do.)

JRPGs —IIRC, tend to resolve combat statistically, where as BT (and that example gif; though admittedly impossible to read at that size) resolves by player committed intent of each PC for each round. That's not JRPG in my (limited) experience of them; that was the BT series combat—at least until now. :(
My earlier comment was mostly a reference to the early days of the kickstarter when we were having these JRPG debates. I found amusing that here we are many months later, and your demo is very, very similar to 80's and 90's JRPG's.

As for the above quoted post, early JRPG's combat was very similar to Bard's Tale. Final Fantasy (1987 original) was nearly the exact same combat system as Bard's Tale, except you can see your party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx0c7jXbA_E The link isn't the best because it's a single monster, in fights with more enemies you would select your target. Then order of actions was based on something; some stat likely, can't remember.

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by demeisen » February 15th, 2018, 11:11 am

Gizmo wrote:
February 9th, 2018, 7:39 pm
But you've played Bard's Tale (1, 2, or 3)...yes?
Image
To be fair, the Amiga version, while still clearly a mid 80's game, looked a lot nicer than most of the other platforms. Mostly I think that was due to the richer color palette it had available. I remember being impressed by the artwork in BT1 when it was released, which by the standards of the day, was quite nice. At least, it was a big step up from Temple of Apshai :). The PC was a rubbish gaming platform in those days.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by demeisen » February 15th, 2018, 11:48 am

Simmeon wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 7:20 am
Honestly, my two cents is that it's not. For me anyway. So far nothing I've seen or heard connects the old Bards Tale games to this one other than that it's a dungeon crawler.
...
Somehow I'm not too bothered by that.

I might have a limited perspective since I only finished BT1, played around half of BT2, and never bought BT3, so I only saw about half the original series - and haven't played any of it since the 80's. I don't remember the BT classics as having very much in the way of lore, plot, or a highly crafted game universe though. I recall them as more like, "let's throw a random assortment of creatures at the character's party, with an absolutely massive helping of RNG, and some location and bad guy names sprinkled around for good measure". It had dungeons that (I think? - been a while...) re-pop the moment you leave as if you'd never been there to begin with. It had a very haphazard, kitchen-sink kind of feel to it, which was fine by the standards of 1985 and largely driven by the technical limitations of the day, but we're not talking highly-polished-story based game here. BGII or PS:T it was not. The parts of it that were constrained by technical limitations, I wouldn't hold up as either defining the series, or as desirable things to bring forward into 2018. And some of those things they're still going to allow if you want them, like hand-mapping.

So I'm pretty flexible on what they do with BT4. Just give me a good, party based dungeon crawler, some clever puzzles, and I'm happy. As long as it has a sense of danger, some fun exploration, some satisfying challenges, and they do something better with the combat system than what the BT-classics had, then I'm fine calling that BT4. Just stay away from the 2004 slapstick thing, please. That didn't feel like BT :).

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 15th, 2018, 4:45 pm

demeisen wrote:
February 15th, 2018, 11:11 am
To be fair, the Amiga version, while still clearly a mid 80's game, looked a lot nicer than most of the other platforms. Mostly I think that was due to the richer color palette it had available. I remember being impressed by the artwork in BT1 when it was released, which by the standards of the day, was quite nice. At least, it was a big step up from Temple of Apshai :). The PC was a rubbish gaming platform in those days.
While the Amiga was a very capable platform in its day, its talents were hardly showcased by this game. The graphics were on par with the IIgs and Atari versions, both of which I've played in addition to the Amiga version. On par, in both terms of color and resolution. The Mac graphics were black-and-white but were higher resolution, iirc, than any of the other platforms. If you're comparing against the C64, the IIe, the Sinclair, or DOS machines, then I'll agree the Amiga version was nicer-looking than the versions on those machines.

The Amiga version was also extremely slow at times and loaded data from disk annoyingly often. The sound wasn't that great either, even though the platform was capable of supporting better. Both the IIgs and Mac versions have it beat in terms of sound. The font on the Mac version is also much smoother than seen on any other platform.
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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by SuperDave17 » February 15th, 2018, 5:32 pm

demeisen wrote:
February 15th, 2018, 11:48 am
Simmeon wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 7:20 am
Honestly, my two cents is that it's not. For me anyway. So far nothing I've seen or heard connects the old Bards Tale games to this one other than that it's a dungeon crawler.
...
Somehow I'm not too bothered by that.

I might have a limited perspective since I only finished BT1, played around half of BT2, and never bought BT3, so I only saw about half the original series - and haven't played any of it since the 80's. I don't remember the BT classics as having very much in the way of lore, plot, or a highly crafted game universe though. I recall them as more like, "let's throw a random assortment of creatures at the character's party, with an absolutely massive helping of RNG, and some location and bad guy names sprinkled around for good measure". It had dungeons that (I think? - been a while...) re-pop the moment you leave as if you'd never been there to begin with. It had a very haphazard, kitchen-sink kind of feel to it, which was fine by the standards of 1985 and largely driven by the technical limitations of the day, but we're not talking highly-polished-story based game here. BGII or PS:T it was not. The parts of it that were constrained by technical limitations, I wouldn't hold up as either defining the series, or as desirable things to bring forward into 2018. And some of those things they're still going to allow if you want them, like hand-mapping.

So I'm pretty flexible on what they do with BT4. Just give me a good, party based dungeon crawler, some clever puzzles, and I'm happy. As long as it has a sense of danger, some fun exploration, some satisfying challenges, and they do something better with the combat system than what the BT-classics had, then I'm fine calling that BT4. Just stay away from the 2004 slapstick thing, please. That didn't feel like BT :).
Play BT3 all the way through and you might reconsider that opinion. Great story, but left a lot of unanswered questions about the nature of the cosmology and the seven dimensions, and what has taken place since Tarjan's defeat by way of epilogue.

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by demeisen » February 15th, 2018, 9:02 pm

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
February 15th, 2018, 4:45 pm
The Amiga version was also extremely slow at times and loaded data from disk annoyingly often
Haha, yes I remember. "Click... click... click... click... click.... (eons later) click... click... I'm in the dungeon!"

I think I only had one floppy drive at the time, too, to saving required a physical disk swap.

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by thebruce » February 16th, 2018, 3:46 pm

So this happened earlier today...
The classic FPS System Shock has a Kickstarter to create a modern remake of the classic popular game. It's been a long time... but the developers Nightdive Studios just realized what was happening with the project, and made this announcement.

I truly hope inXile doesn't get to the point of even considering such a digression from the classic trilogy that this even becomes a question. I really hope BT4 isn't going down this road for an inevtiable crossroads decision of this scale.

Please keep the classic trilogy as the core stylistic theme of this project - that's what the Kickstarter was marketed as, that's what it should remain.

Just a friendly commentary from a diehard fan ;) (who also loved the original System Shock, backed the linked project, and has mixed feelings but is generally supportive of Nightdive's decision)

PS: this isn't to start an OT discussion about SS, but to interate the importance of the Bard's Tale series branding to the Kickstarter project!
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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by Gizmo » February 16th, 2018, 4:43 pm

That was depressing... but at least he caught the bait & switch in time; that might have lead them into a class action lawsuit for fraud.

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by Lucius » February 17th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Gizmo wrote:
February 16th, 2018, 4:43 pm
That was depressing... but at least he caught the bait & switch in time; that might have lead them into a class action lawsuit for fraud.
I don't know enough about that project specifically, but I doubt that would be successful at all. I think the only way someone could win a lawsuit like that is if they devs said they are making Battletoads and the game is a Formula 1 racing game with frogs instead of cars. I think the only way would be to convince a judge that there's a difference in reboot and remaster and even then, I think they would also have to proven that they took people's money with a promise of one thing, but knew at that time they would be delivering a different thing. If the dev can prove that the project evolved from it's original scope, I don't think fraud would fly considering game development is an iterative process with a fluctuating budget. At any rate, personally I'd be shocked if a plaintiff won a case like that.

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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 17th, 2018, 2:57 pm

As would I. Following the spirit of a predecessor is a fairly subjective thing and unlikely to withstand the rigors of the courtroom. Unless the developers very specifically promised certain features and those features were not present in the final deliverable, I am not sure that much could be done. Even then, one wonders whether if it could even be held as breach of contract, since a KS pledge might not be held as a legally-enforceable contract.

I won't be suing inXile if BT4 doesn't turn out to be a worthy successor in the BT series, as it probably won't based on everything seen thus far. :) However, you can be sure that I won't be giving them any more money ever again.

But, speaking of breach of contract, it would be interesting to know if inXile and Old Skuul are still talking with each other at all about the delivery status of the remasters....
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Re: Is this Game going to Live Up to Expectations?

Post by Crosmando » February 18th, 2018, 2:26 am

Lord of Riva wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 1:47 am
Not only that, there are a vast amount of Blobbers with japanese Origin to boot as the genre never really died down.
Probably would be a good idea to make sure BT4 has a Japanese translation, it could develop a modest following over there.
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