Spotlight #1: Character Creation

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Drool » July 10th, 2018, 12:22 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 9:45 pm
Mehhh. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but archetypes and classes aren't the same thing. Your Sorcerer specialists and your Magician specialists are going to be distinct - quite likely more distinct than they were in the original games. And that goes for all the subclasses for all the archetypes.
And how long does your fighter have to play before he can be a Paladin? Or a Warrior? Or a Hunter? Or a Monk?

And when I make my "Magician specialist" can I later make him a Conjurer? And then a Sorcerer? And then a Wizard? No? Huh. How un-Bard's Tale of this game.
As for races, well, what is a race? Is it the cosmetics? Would you be satisfied if they put fangs on the Einarr and called him a half-orc?
Honestly? Yes. Yes I would.
I'd like to see gnomes and hobbits too, but this seems like a complaint on the level of "I prefer my whipped cream topping swirled counterclockwise".
I see it more as, "I prefer my whipped cream to be cream that has been whipped, as opposed to Redi-Whip."
PsychicMonk wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 9:15 am
In my opinion the characters now look even more like they came straight out of BT 2004 cover/concept art and
the Fighter scratching his back with his sword (stupid squealing sound included) at 1:06 is another example of unfitting BT2004 comedy...
Honestly, I enjoyed BT2004. But (and I hate using Fallout parallels, but it really fits here) I see BT2004 as being like Fallout: Tactics; it's a spinoff. Fun, but shouldn't be a template for future main entries.
thebruce wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 9:39 am
The latching on to Bard/Beer/Drinking/Merriment is infiltrating our ranks. Can we do a party attack and kill it off?
It's a brain bug*.

*Incidentally, I'm really thrilled that I was able to dig up that 16 year old essay, essentially since I've been using the "brain bug" analogy more and more around here.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Zombra » July 10th, 2018, 12:53 pm

:roll: BREAKING NEWS: BARD'S TALE IV DIFFERENT FROM BARD'S TALE I-III
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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 12:53 pm
:roll: BREAKING NEWS: BARD'S TALE IV DIFFERENT FROM BARD'S TALE I-III
..And that's the main problem with it. ;)

*It should not be #IV if it's some other game instead; one just using the name (for some inexplicable reason).

Does anyone here not think this is a parallel of what happened to Fallout with FO3?

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by lefty1117 » July 10th, 2018, 1:49 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm
Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 12:53 pm
:roll: BREAKING NEWS: BARD'S TALE IV DIFFERENT FROM BARD'S TALE I-III
..And that's the main problem with it. ;)

*It should not be #IV if it's some other game instead; one just using the name (for some inexplicable reason).

Does anyone here not think this is a parallel of what happened to Fallout with FO3?
yes but fallout3 kept much of the lore and atmosphere in place, despite the radical shift in gameplay. Which is what I was saying in an earlier post. If the gameplay is going to be a big departure, try to keep the atmosphere and lore consistent to the originals (such as it existed, don't think it was built to be very deep at the time).

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 2:02 pm

Drool wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 12:22 pm
...the "brain bug" analogy more and more around here.[/size]
That was a great essay. 8-)
lefty1117 wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:49 pm
yes but fallout3 kept much of the lore and atmosphere in place, despite the radical shift in gameplay. Which is what I was saying in an earlier post. If the gameplay is going to be a big departure, try to keep the atmosphere and lore consistent to the originals (such as it existed, don't think it was built to be very deep at the time).
I don't at all agree that FO3 kept the lore. They cherry-picked recognizable names and reused them; sometimes in the silliest, or even most lore contradictory ways. The actual setting that they present is almost nothing like the established series, and serves only as a Fallout-skinned coat for their TES game template.

As far as gameplay shifts go... that's the most important aspect to retain; or would you accept a Halo 6 that played like Torchlight?... So long as it kept all the lore intact?
Last edited by Gizmo on July 10th, 2018, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by ZiN » July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 10:30 am
Oh, and on a superficial note, the graphics for the 'paper dolls' are fantastic - much improved from what we saw in the alpha/demo. Looking really good.
To each his own, to me, they look like fugly clowns.
I remember when dwarves used to be short, stocky fellows with beards and elves being graceful creatures of nature. But I guess, retarded blue-chested hulks and clowns wearing shitty emo-makeup can also pass as dwarves and elves in your and InXile's book.
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Realms of Arkania 2 (1994), Might & Magic X (2014), Bard's Tale IV (2018). Guess which ones were created by actually talented artists, and which ones by talentless hacks?

Also, guy in video says something like: "That looks properly heroic!"
So, tell me, which one of these look heroic to you, and which one as a fucking clown:
ImageImage
Zombra wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 9:45 pm
As for races, well, what is a race? Is it the cosmetics? Would you be satisfied if they put fangs on the Einarr and called him a half-orc?
If I remember right, you were a Wizardry player, so you should know what a race is, in terms of meaningful gameplay mechanics. Haven't you ever rolled a faerie ninja?
Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm
Does anyone here not think this is a parallel of what happened to Fallout with FO3.
Absolutely, except that FO3 wasn't funded by fans and had to answer to a publisher. In addition, I could compare BT4 to Ultima IX and Star Wars VII-VIII.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 2:32 pm

Is it just me, or do some of the 'paper-doll' shins look deformed—near broken just below the knees, except for the Trow, because theirs are supposed to look like that?

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Zombra » July 10th, 2018, 3:39 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm
Does anyone here not think this is a parallel of what happened to Fallout with FO3?
I think it's absolutely parallel. The point is that this is not new or useful information to anyone.

Remember the post I made a week or two ago, where I complained that so many people are going "It's different!! It's different!!" while giving no good reason it should be the same except "Old is good! Sequel should be sequel!" and everybody said, "Oh, well I always back it up with a gameplay argument." Remember that? Do ya?
ZiN wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm
[stuff]
First: thank you for having meaningful, articulable opinions that invite conversation :)
ZiN wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm
Zombra wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 10:30 am
The graphics for the 'paper dolls' are fantastic - much improved from what we saw in the alpha/demo. Looking really good.
To each his own, to me, they look like fugly clowns.
Context is important. I said improved from the demo, and I stand by it.
ZiN wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm
I remember when dwarves used to be short, stocky fellows with beards and elves being graceful creatures of nature. But I guess, retarded blue-chested hulks and clowns wearing shitty emo-makeup can also pass as dwarves and elves in your and InXile's book.
The style of the elf is fine. What's wrong with it? You don't like she's wearing heavy mascara? Seems like a pretty tiny thing to get angry about. I do think it weird that "dwarves" are blue, clean-shaven ogres here. Shoulda called them something else really. I don't think the look itself is bad though.
ZiN wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm
Realms of Arkania 2 (1994), Might & Magic X (2014), Bard's Tale IV (2018). Guess which ones were created by actually talented artists, and which ones by talentless hacks?
Ehh. To be honest, none of them stand up to critical scrutiny. Leaving aside that comparing 2D to 3D is unfair, the postures and proportions on the Arkania pictures look terrible and the bland, overwrought "modern" treatments of MMX leave me a little dead inside, it looks like it's from a 101 art class "everybody copy this". Do the BT4 paper dolls rival Pixar? No, I agree ... it's almost as if they didn't have a big graphics budget.
ZiN wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm
So, tell me, which one of these look heroic to you, and which one as a fucking clown.
Being honest here. They both look like complete dorks.
ZiN wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:13 pm
If I remember right, you were a Wizardry player, so you should know what a race is, in terms of meaningful gameplay mechanics. Haven't you ever rolled a faerie ninja?
The faerie ninja is for powergamers and walkthrough junkies. No thank you :)

As for meaningful mechanics, each of the seven cultures in BT4 does have a meaningful mechanic. Are they hard core, fine grain RPG mechanics? Of course not, this isn't a hard core, stats-heavy RPG. They are card game mechanics appropriate to the combat system that was developed. Putting fangs on the Einarr wouldn't make his gameplay deeper.
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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by lefty1117 » July 10th, 2018, 3:42 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:02 pm
As far as gameplay shifts go... that's the most important aspect to retain; or would you accept a Halo 6 that played like Torchlight?... So long as it kept all the lore intact?
I would certainly be willing to give it a try, but perhaps that is where we really diverge.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:39 pm
Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm
Does anyone here not think this is a parallel of what happened to Fallout with FO3?
I think it's absolutely parallel. The point is that this is not new or useful information to anyone.

Remember the post I made a week or two ago, where I complained that so many people are going "It's different!! It's different!!" while giving no good reason it should be the same except "Old is good! Sequel should be sequel!" and everybody said, "Oh, well I always back it up with a gameplay argument." Remember that? Do ya?
Let me put it another way: If it's that different, then it loses, hands down; and regardless of merit. You don't label a product 'Peanut Butter', and omit the peanuts, salt, and oil.
lefty1117 wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:42 pm
I would certainly be willing to give it a try, but perhaps that is where we really diverge.
Most definitely.

I would accept any kind of spin-off title, but never a numbered sequel that had entirely unrelated gameplay to its namesake.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by thebruce » July 10th, 2018, 3:58 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:39 pm
Remember the post I made a week or two ago, where I complained that so many people are going "It's different!! It's different!!" while giving no good reason it should be the same except "Old is good! Sequel should be sequel!" and everybody said, "Oh, well I always back it up with a gameplay argument." Remember that? Do ya?
...yes.
For one, you didn't say anything about "sequel should be sequel", secondly "old is good" is an awful strawman - since still no one here has said that.

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:39 pm
The style of the elf is fine. What's wrong with it? You don't like she's wearing heavy mascara? Seems like a pretty tiny thing to get angry about. I do think it weird that "dwarves" are blue, clean-shaven ogres here. Shoulda called them something else really. I don't think the look itself is bad though.
For me - the elf, enh. I can live with it, but yes the eyes are probably the biggest oddity. I'm not huge on "amazing graphics" and I'd rather have 2D art than low-res 3D graphic in Bard's Tale anyway, so I likely won't be picking many nits about graphic quality.



Side note w/moderator hat to thread participants: Let's try to keep the language civil, as heated or frustrated as we may get either with the game, or each other, mmkay? thx :ugeek:
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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 4:01 pm

thebruce wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:58 pm
For me - the elf, enh. I can live with it, but yes the eyes are probably the biggest oddity.
Space Oddity... As in Ziggy Stardust. :lol:

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Zombra » July 10th, 2018, 4:09 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:53 pm
Let me put it another way: If it's that different, then it loses, hands down; and regardless of merit. You don't label a product 'Peanut Butter', and omit the peanuts, salt, and oil.
Misnaming something is a bad idea for sure ... again I agree BT4 shouldn't have been called a sequel.

But it's also dumb to repel quality because you're hung up on labels. Bring me a bacon wrapped filet mignon broiled to perfection and you can call it peanut butter or turkey beak salad or anything you want, I'll still enjoy it and be grateful for the chance.
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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 4:15 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 4:09 pm
But it's also dumb to repel quality because you're hung up on labels. Bring me a bacon wrapped filet mignon broiled to perfection and you can call it peanut butter or turkey beak salad or anything you want, I'll still enjoy it and be grateful for the chance.
Not a chance. Labels have meaning, and should not be altered at whim, or for convenience sake. I used to work for a guy that sold Alligator sausage, and if he ran out, he'd just use regular sausage. Names have meaning for a reason, and should be respected; and should be trustworthy. One should know what's in the tin by the label.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Zombra » July 10th, 2018, 4:18 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 4:15 pm
Not a chance. Labels have meaning, and should not be altered at whim, or for convenience sake. I used to work for a guy that sold Alligator sausage, and if he ran out, he'd just use regular sausage. Names have meaning, and should be respected; and should be trustworthy.
No one ever said otherwise.

But it's a shame that you'd rather starve than enjoy a filet.
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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Gizmo » July 10th, 2018, 4:23 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 4:18 pm
But it's a shame that you'd rather starve than enjoy a filet.
I'd rather be served what was ordered (and paid for in advance) from the advertised menu. ;)
Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 4:15 pm
One should know what's in the tin by the label.
Funny story about that... I once read that Gerber tried to sell baby food in parts of Africa where (with so many languages in proximity) the convention was to put a picture on the label of what was in the can. It was said that it didn't go over too well for them. :lol:

*Snopes considers it a 'legend'; (that dates back to the fifties).
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/label-fable/

...But it's no less apt. I saw the Power Armor helmet on the FO3 box, and assumed it was another Fallout inside... I was wrong.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Crosmando » July 11th, 2018, 2:05 am

Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 3:20 am
Crosmando wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 2:14 am
Well this was disappointing, the video didn't show all the sub-classes that we were told each archetype would have. I believe they said each would have 3 per archetype, meaning we would get 12 total classes. In the video, after they choose class it just goes straight to the skill tree and theres no sub-classes to be seen.
Eh? The subclasses are right there. The two Fighter subclasses shown are Defender and Champion. The Character Progression kickstarter update from July 2016 showed Defender, Vanguard, Veteran, Commander, Champion (that may have changed meanwhile of course).

We know the Practicioner subclasses: Conjurer, Magician, Sorcerer, Wizard, Archmage. Says so right in the video.

We know 2/6 of the Bard subclasses from the recent Bard spotlight: Brew Master and Rabble Rouser.

We don't know anything about the Rogue subclasses. Mysterious! But even if Rogue only has as few as 4 subclasses, that's 20 total.
So where's the Paladin and Hunter?
Matthias did nothing wrong!

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by ZZGO » July 11th, 2018, 2:08 am

thebruce wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 9:39 am
The latching on to Bard/Beer/Drinking/Merriment is infiltrating our ranks. Can we do a party attack and kill it off?
It's an illusion. Just cast DISB. The spell goes like this: Close your eyes, put your hands on your ears (in a dignified, mystical fashion), and chant "LaLaLa". :roll:
I do share your sentiment though - I'm also confused about the vision InXile seem to have for BT IV. But I reserve judgement until I see the end product.

On a technical level, though, I have no problem with the character creation process. I like it.
Yes it is fundamentally different from the original games; and yes, the lack of certain races arguably cuts ties with the pre-existing lore. Or maybe these races still exist but aren't available for players anymore.
But seriously, what's the loss here? Race was never more than a modifier to stats, in a stats system based on classic D&D and now in a completely revamped system. Its impact on the actual gameplay was nil. The Elf-realm of Arboria treated an all-elf party no different at all from an all-half-orc party.

I am actually happy about the ability to influence character development now. Let's be honest, many game mechancis in BT I - III essentially broke down once your party got out of diapers. The old combat system was tense and interesting until it wasn't anymore three dungeons into the game. The magic system had the usual extreme power curve where they were useless at first, then useful, and then overpowered (around the point where the hand-to-hand combat system becomes meaningless is where the spellcasters take over). And character development was just getting a random attribute and your HP and SP raised every now and then. Extra spells, multiple attacks, critical hits and poorly implemented trap disarming skills weren't bad development venues back in the day, but the suggested BT IV system is far superior.

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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Zombra » July 11th, 2018, 2:30 am

Crosmando wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 2:05 am
So where's the Paladin and Hunter?
Unknown. I assume Hunter will be a Rogue subclass. Paladins and other "hybrids" are likely gone; split focus pieces don't make sense in a card game type design. We'll see on Thursday.
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Re: Spotlight #1: Character Creation

Post by Grohal » July 11th, 2018, 5:41 am

lefty1117 wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:49 pm
Gizmo wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 1:08 pm
Zombra wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 12:53 pm
:roll: BREAKING NEWS: BARD'S TALE IV DIFFERENT FROM BARD'S TALE I-III
..And that's the main problem with it. ;)

*It should not be #IV if it's some other game instead; one just using the name (for some inexplicable reason).

Does anyone here not think this is a parallel of what happened to Fallout with FO3?
yes but fallout3 kept much of the lore and atmosphere in place, despite the radical shift in gameplay. Which is what I was saying in an earlier post. If the gameplay is going to be a big departure, try to keep the atmosphere and lore consistent to the originals (such as it existed, don't think it was built to be very deep at the time).
Fallout 3 kept the lore and atmosphere in place? NO, just no.
They destroyed everything of lore with the brotherhood. They made supermutants bigger, greener cannonfodder. They made raiders two-legged rats with guns. They brought in robotic humans. They... no just NO!

@Topic: We will see tomorrow if it gets a Bards Tale tune or not.
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