The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by ZiN » September 18th, 2017, 12:38 am

demeisen wrote:
September 16th, 2017, 11:15 am
I wonder if we have any chance of getting a long term dynamic. I'm afraid it'd be tough in a commercial sense. Players seem to expect games will prevent them from ever backing themselves into a resource starvation corner that leads to inevitable party death, where to me, a game that doesn't let me back myself into a corner isn't nearly as fun. I want the freedom to fail.
Very well said, both you and Drool. I really like the "freedom to fail" phrase! If the game wants to stay true to itself, it needs to be quite challenging and they can't expect every player to finish it on first try, without guides. I wonder how challenging this game will be, and what will be the violence level.
Gizmo wrote:
September 17th, 2017, 7:06 pm
...BG2, in Durlag's Tower...
Cool story, Gizmo, that's what i'm talking about. You ingeniously used a spell, to get away with the treasure without falling for the trap. These are very cool gaming moments. You can chalk one up for yourself vs the developer :) (You know, the gossip about Cranford trying to "beat" the player with his dungeons.)
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Gizmo wrote:
September 17th, 2017, 7:06 pm
In the original BTs the player could not see the population of the cells ahead, in BT4 they most certainly can. That makes a teleport spell useful to bypass encounters; perhaps even fixed encounters. They designers would have to be very careful about including teleport; but it'd be nice if that can.
Sure implementing and testing teleoprt spells is very tough, without the abstraction, that's present in classic dungeon-crawlers. I requires thorough playtesting, and lots of time. Imagine playtesting BT2 on a C-64 back in the old-times, and wonder how bug-free and unbreakable it was.

Letting the player experiment with teleporting into suspicious areas on the map is very nice, as is letting them save travel time.

It could be balanced mainly through anti-teleport areas. The SP cost of such spells would also be quite high (as opposed to the classics, where it was only 15, but it didn't break the game). Sure, you've bypassed that encounter, but the monsters are still there and killing them would cost less SP and you'd get XP + loot. Or you could just cast invisibility, or play Sir Robin's Tune for a much lesser cost. Obviously travelling around spamming APAR would only be viable, with several higher-level mages (conjurers), who also grinded a bit and stocked up on harmonic gems (mana potions), but why not let them?

I wonder how other classic exploration spells (like PHDO, LEVI, GILL, SOSI, etc) are going to work. Audio-visually they could be awesome, but they also need to be meaningful gameplay choices. So please no big flashing "cast ... spell here" icons, like in the video, but actual exploration challenges. Let the player go underwater (or viscous plane... yuck) without GILL and drown. (Or reach that switch with just a couple drowned chars...)

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Ether » September 18th, 2017, 4:52 am

How about a town portal spell (like Bard's Tale 2, SASP) which removes all of the party's gold? I have used it on several occassions
Interesting, because I honestly don't recall that spell ever working the two times I tried to cast it (C64 version).
Of course, I always thought the penalty was silly because:
a. you could store your gold in the Bank
b. gold was pretty much irrelevant in that game anyways
I have a terrible feeling that BT4 is gonna go full-casual and get rid of limited resource management of SP/HP in favor of regen-over-time and cooldowns.
I do appreciate the concept of resource management.
That said, the SP/HP regen largely existed in the originals, mainly once you got a Bardsword and could sing unlimited Bard songs to rejuvenate your party. Sure, it was a bit time consuming, but it was there.
Those staffs that the mages could find negated the SP management aspect. And of course, APAR often allowed a quick exit once you got it.

Now, for an element of peril, they could go back to what they did in BT1 and not show how charges is left on an item. In that scenario, you had to decide if you needed to use that Fire Horn, because you didn't know if it would disappear for the battle that you really need.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2017, 6:41 am

phimseto wrote:
September 15th, 2017, 5:30 pm
thebruce wrote:
September 15th, 2017, 2:14 pm
What I'm curious about is if all this discussion is being read by dev staffers or being passed on to devs for absorption into their creation proces...? ;)
Yes, as have many comments and threads through the years.
Awesome :) Hard to tell sometimes in lengthier discussions if there may still be someone following. Thanks for chirping ;)
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2017, 6:45 am

demeisen wrote:
September 16th, 2017, 11:15 am
Drool wrote:
September 15th, 2017, 6:15 pm
It was never about the strategy in fighting a single group of random encounter foes. It was about resource management across numerous encounters in succession. When each fight involves enemy juggling and buff/debuff management and meditation and item use and all that stuff, all the focus is on the individual fight.
As much as we might want different things at the battle level, I wholeheartedly agree with you there. One of the primary things I liked in BT1 was having to manage your party resources over a whole dungeon dive. Since then, RPGs have been moving ever more towards "insta-regen", which I loathe. Many players want to meet every encounter at full strength, unload all they've got in a massive blaze of glory, regenerate, and repeat. To me, that ruins the sense of adventure and having to make strategic choices about when to use powerful but resource-expensive abilities. Long term resources make even the small encounters meaningful, because now they have a cost. It also makes me think about when it's time to turn around and head back when I'm exploring a new, dangerous area.
Ah yes true I hadn't even considered that (obvious) aspect - SP and HP counts being so high as you progressed certainly made the adventures a more -long-term concern, not just battle to battle but dungeon-dive to dungeon-exit. If total points are giving way to per-combat resources that regen after each, there's much less focus on long-term planning and strategizing. And that's something that I agree is also quite different than the BT style.

Related: one of the developers stated in an update that they want to allow you to get to places you shouldn't, and have the "learning experience" of a drubbing by things much meaner than you. Cheers to that! Too many games use level-gated areas to hold my hand, dole out encounters in carefully measured doses, and ensure I never get in over my head. But much like with resource management, I want the game to let me get in over my head.
Some games get around that by making too-high creature either not fight you because you're too weak and you're uninteresting, or have lower level creatures run away before you can do anything if you're too high level. I think the former is, generally, not so bad (you probably wouldn't win anyway so it would be suicide - so it would be a matter of letting the player commit suicide or not :P tho just having that choice is a good thing; it would really moreso depend on the 'character' of the creature). The latter though, don't have every weak creature run just because we're too powerful. Classics did have a run mechanic for weak enemies, but always after the first round and it wasn't 100% success (or even 100% attempt). So keep that combat imbalance there, definitely.

demeisen wrote:
September 17th, 2017, 11:46 am
I like games that let me explore and possibly get myself in deep trouble. If BT4 is willing to buck the mainstream there, who knows, maybe it also might around long term resources.
I picture the fellowship of the ring, exploring Moria... and coming up on the Balrog...
THAT is intensity. You know you're about to be in over your head. Hints, tips, environment, warnings - yet you can still step in. Bad guy can wipe you out, or maybe there's some way for you to run and get out of dodge. But it's there. It's your choice. And there's lead-up, so it's not an unfair turn-a-corner-and-you're-dead occurrence.

Gizmo wrote:
September 17th, 2017, 3:41 pm
Is it possible to have combats on stairs? (Will those combats come with a statistical advantage for the force with the high-ground?)
Yep. Curious. Classics you imagined things like stairs, thrones, room, tunnels, forests. Now they're visible, and as said in the update, the combat algorithm determines by the actual physical vicinity what sort of encounter and strategies will be employed. So the visible literal world is going to affect combat setup. That's definitely new to BT; I'm reserving judgment until I see a good playthrough with all of that. =/

ZiN wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 12:38 am
Letting the player experiment with teleporting into suspicious areas on the map is very nice, as is letting them save travel time.
Yep I remember teleporting myself into unvisited enclosed areas of some maps in BT, only to find out they actually weren't used and I buried myself alive :P I recall at least a couple of times being stuck in anti-magic non-phdo map 'holes'. Oops. :lol:
So please no big flashing "cast ... spell here" icons, like in the video, but actual exploration challenges. Let the player go underwater (or viscous plane... yuck) without GILL and drown. (Or reach that switch with just a couple drowned chars...)
Yes I fear the meta-physical guide/tip/hint-cues on-screen are also a pull-in from *cough* "modern" gaming :P
For comparison, the classics only tips were based on what environment spell you had running at any one time, and the tips were entirely proportional to those.

IF the visual cues were tied to a party/environment spell, I could grok that - but please please please no "arrows", or "glowing pads" in the general environment to guide the player towards next steps and actions for puzzles, not without logical explanation. :o

Ether wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 4:52 am
That said, the SP/HP regen largely existed in the originals, mainly once you got a Bardsword and could sing unlimited Bard songs to rejuvenate your party. Sure, it was a bit time consuming, but it was there.
Those staffs that the mages could find negated the SP management aspect. And of course, APAR often allowed a quick exit once you got it.
Yes, however your 'recharge time' was at the risk of additional encounters before being prepped. There was always an inter-combat concern with resources, even if every character could 'recharge' their abilities between battles. You had to decide how much resource to use during battle, considering how long it would take to get it back before the next potential battle, and how dangerous it might be. Even at super-high levels, resources were still not directly unlimited.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by demeisen » September 18th, 2017, 8:48 am

Ether wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 4:52 am
That said, the SP/HP regen largely existed in the originals, mainly once you got a Bardsword and could sing unlimited Bard songs to rejuvenate your party.
True... except for those of us who were a bit iconoclastic / foolish and may have played a game called "The Bard's Tale" and not actually taken a bard along :lol:. I always forget they had special abilities.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by demeisen » September 18th, 2017, 9:15 am

thebruce wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 6:45 am
You know you're about to be in over your head. Hints, tips, environment, warnings - yet you can still step in. Bad guy can wipe you out, or maybe there's some way for you to run and get out of dodge. But it's there. It's your choice. And there's lead-up, so it's not an unfair turn-a-corner-and-you're-dead occurrence.
Well said. That perfectly captures a sense that a great RPG can create... and the way that it should be handled, with in-game cues. Sometimes it can also be fun to peek in and see what you can (and then run away in terror before it notices and eats you).

In recent years it's gone a little missing. Players seem to expect games to dole out level-appropriate challenges at all times, and people don't pay much attention to NPC dialog or environmental cues. ("Hmm, wolves are tough for me right now, and there's a big pile of freshly eviscerated wolf carcasses just outside this cave... maybe something's in there which is much nastier than a pack of wolves").

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Zombra » September 18th, 2017, 12:21 pm

Crosmando wrote:
September 17th, 2017, 8:37 am
I have a terrible feeling that BT4 is gonna go full-casual and get rid of limited resource management of SP/HP in favor of regen-over-time and cooldowns. They didn't do this in WL2 but there was some backlash from players who didn't like having to manage to medical items etc.
For anyone listening, speaking as one of the flag carriers for heal over time in W2, that was because there was heal over time in W1 - in fact that was the only way to heal in W1, besides going to a doctor in town. There were no healing potions.

I believe the original Bard's Tale games had healing potions and spells. I can't remember if they had heal over time. But I would certainly not advocate to change the primary healing method from the original games. In both cases, all I want to do is stick to the original.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by demeisen » September 18th, 2017, 3:55 pm

Zombra wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 12:21 pm
I believe the original Bard's Tale games had healing potions and spells. I can't remember if they had heal over time.
I imagine someone has a better recollection than I do (I last played literally when BT1 came out in 85), but I think it had heal spells for some magic classes, and a VERY weak heal-over-time (or maybe it was "heal-over-movement-steps") if you were outdoors, but not inside dungeons (?). I remember the outdoor HoT being only practical to gather a paltry few HP at low levels. By mid levels it was insignificant. There was also a temple where you could pay gold for healing or to remove status effects, and an emporium to buy MP. It's possible the bard class could heal too, but I don't remember, since I was too daft to use one.

The spell heals are what stands out most in my memory. It became a careful balancing act toward the end of a dungeon dive: you had to heal your tanks enough so they wouldn't die in combat, but that same MP pool was also used for group-attack spells and so on. The more you used MP to heal, the less you had for killing things. Sometimes you'd cut it way too close, and barely get back with a party ground down to the very bone. That's the long term dynamic I hope BT4 will retain, at least in spirit, though naturally I'd expect the details to differ. Also you could only save in inns (right??), so you had a lot on the line. I also hope BT4 will have a "lots on the line" mode, maybe as an optional game setting we can enable when starting a new game.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Gizmo » September 18th, 2017, 4:12 pm

The problem with optional-fever... is that it works with or without it. That's like having a road trip with optional blow-outs.
*(and in that example, the blow-out could lead to an adventure, but many (probably most) would choose not to ever have a blow-out.)

There needs to be a line in the (digital) sand that says, 'mandatory!' for aspects that shape & define the experience. Options should be mostly for graphical tweaks & performance, and possible information dump, or for phobia avoidance. Baldur's Gate allowed the option to display combat rolls, but not the option to guarantee hits with them.
demeisen wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 3:55 pm
Also you could only save in inns (right??), so you had a lot on the line. I also hope BT4 will have a "lots on the line" mode, maybe as an optional game setting we can enable when starting a new game.
I would hope for limited save-on-demand, as per Bard's Tale, but I would welcome a save-on-quit option; (preferably paired with at least one non-skip-able intro cinematic for the game).

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by demeisen » September 18th, 2017, 4:37 pm

Gizmo wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 4:12 pm
That's like having a road trip with optional blow-outs.
Haha, I suppose. :D

The thing is, I wager something like BT1-style limited saves with long play periods between would be a really hard sell today. I think they'd have a revolt on their hands and probably end up with quite harsh reviews. But there are some of us who'd play that way (I would...), so I'm imagining something like what POE did with Trial of Iron mode. Sure, you can argue you could manually do it without using the mode at all, but it made it easier and helped you not have to think about it. If you wanted that challenge, you switched it on in the new game, and off you went.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » September 18th, 2017, 5:13 pm

demeisen wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 3:55 pm
Zombra wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 12:21 pm
I believe the original Bard's Tale games had healing potions and spells. I can't remember if they had heal over time.
I imagine someone has a better recollection than I do (I last played literally when BT1 came out in 85), but I think it had heal spells for some magic classes, and a VERY weak heal-over-time (or maybe it was "heal-over-movement-steps") if you were outdoors, but not inside dungeons (?).
Spell points regenerated over time in the daylight (would not do so at night or in a dungeon). There was no hit point regeneration that I recall. Hit points could be healed via spell (including a bard song) or at a temple. One cheat that some people (not me) used to fake "heal-over-time" was to run an intra-party combat and have everyone defend every round and let the bard play the healing song. Do that for enough rounds and you're healed, all for the price of a drink if you don't have unlimited songs yet. There were no healing potions in BT1, at least.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Gizmo » September 18th, 2017, 5:16 pm

demeisen wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 4:37 pm
The thing is, I wager something like BT1-style limited saves with long play periods between would be a really hard sell today.
I agree; which is why I'd want the game to allow save-on-exit.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Drool » September 18th, 2017, 5:23 pm

demeisen wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 3:55 pm
I imagine someone has a better recollection than I do (I last played literally when BT1 came out in 85), but I think it had heal spells for some magic classes, and a VERY weak heal-over-time (or maybe it was "heal-over-movement-steps") if you were outdoors, but not inside dungeons (?).
Outside, in the daylight your spell casters would, very slowly, regenerate spell points. This was especially important in BT3 where there was no Roscoe's, so it was light, rare harmonic gems, or the handful of times the Old Man would give you a free refresh.

What the games did have, though, were the occasional Heal Squares in dungeons. Like Darkness, Damage, Silence, and other squares, these were spots on the map where you would be passively healed. But unlike spells, I don't believe they worked sitting idle, so you usually spun in circles making yourself sick, or walked repeatedly into a wall and hoped for no random battle.

And finally, there was a Bard song that healed the Bard out of combat (per step) and the whole party when used in combat.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » September 18th, 2017, 6:06 pm

There was also a bug in one version of BT1 (possibly the IIgs version, iirc), which would allow the party to continue regenerating spell points inside the AG, as though it were outside in daylight. So, if you parked your party in the AG and then let it sit there while you went off and did other stuff, you would come back to fully-recharged mages later.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Gizmo » September 18th, 2017, 7:11 pm

thebruce wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 6:45 am
Gizmo wrote:
September 17th, 2017, 3:41 pm
Is it possible to have combats on stairs? (Will those combats come with a statistical advantage for the force with the high-ground?)
Yep. Curious. Classics you imagined things like stairs, thrones, room, tunnels, forests. Now they're visible, and as said in the update, the combat algorithm determines by the actual physical vicinity what sort of encounter and strategies will be employed. So the visible literal world is going to affect combat setup. That's definitely new to BT; I'm reserving judgment until I see a good playthrough with all of that. =/
One wonders whether it will mean an attack bonus for hitting targets that are below the party on a stairwell; or defense penalties for the targets of those attacks; or could it mean that obstacles on the world map are present in the combat, providing cover, hazard, or opportunities like knocking a flaming urn over onto one's opponent.

ZiN wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 12:38 am
Cool story, Gizmo, that's what i'm talking about. You ingeniously used a spell, to get away with the treasure without falling for the trap. These are very cool gaming moments. You can chalk one up for yourself vs the developer :) (You know, the gossip about Cranford trying to "beat" the player with his dungeons.)
It's very cool—so long as it's not a surprise to the developer. They should never have the situation where they make assumptions on the state of the game, but that it's inaccurate.

In BG (it was not not BG2 before) the game also had the issue where pixel sized errors in assets, meant that the teleport spell could sometimes target the floor inside a locked room, by seeing through an accidental crack in the walls; (fog-of-war). It was treated as open line-of-sight... even though absolutely unintended.

In Kings Bounty:Darkside there is a portal to another world, in a castle terrace, where the entrance to the castle is blocked by a drawbridge, and terrace is guarded by a knight standing in the doorway. Entering the castle is only allowed after completing certain quests, and the same goes for the door to the terrace. But Teleportation is available by then (though flying is not), and the player can technically use a ship to sail close enough to the coast-facing back wall of the castle, and just teleport over the wall, behind the guard, and use the portal. This opens a new map to explore, one that should only be available after all of the quests required to open the castle, and to pass the knight; (Neither of which allow combat as an option to pass). I didn't play further until I accessed the portal the way the game expected. There are a ton of inter-related quests in that game.

So (if teleport were present in BT4) it brings up the question of developer assumptions. Consider (hypothetically) if there were an encounter on a stairwell, where an NPC delivers an ultimatum to the party before letting them pass (or fight their way passed). If the developers expect the choice to have been made when party ascends via the (only) stairs...what happens if the party teleported up and did not trigger the encounter?

Image

This is fine—so long as the state of the game doesn't assume (and/or rely on) that event at the stairs having been triggered. If not, it could cause problems, and exploits. It could be as simple as not turning on the choice of (upstairs) monster AI until the party is upstairs — not turning them all hostile because the party hasn't chosen a side of the ultimatum yet; (to be friend or foe). I certainly want the teleport spell, but I'm sure it would be an endeavor all its own to bug test it. Any holes in the map could potentially allow the player to teleport through them... or become irritated in situations where they can't, but feel that they should be able to; (as in the example image... "why shouldn't they be able to make that jump with a teleport spell?").

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Last edited by Gizmo on September 19th, 2017, 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Zombra » September 19th, 2017, 1:45 am

Bad image host Giz
Image

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Crosmando » September 19th, 2017, 2:00 am

Use imgur.
Matthias did nothing wrong!

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Gizmo » September 19th, 2017, 8:59 am

Zombra wrote:
September 19th, 2017, 1:45 am
Bad image host Giz
Crosmando wrote:
September 19th, 2017, 2:00 am
Use imgur.
Done!
That's curious though... I'd never have known it wasn't delivering, it seemed to work fine for me, but perhaps it works for coming out of my own web cache; or perhaps it's because I uploaded it twice to them, then deleted the first one.

I've tried about five of these hosts (imgur included), and they don't seem to like large resolution gifs.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Drool » September 19th, 2017, 12:08 pm

Personally, I like using Puush.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update #38: Everything Old Is New Again

Post by Yokohamalama » September 19th, 2017, 2:43 pm

Gizmo wrote:
September 18th, 2017, 7:11 pm
Image
Totally offtopic, but: the graphics style of this animated gif looks awesome. Really awesome. It has a nice oldschool touch to it.

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