The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Announcements & media coverage pertaining to Bard's Tale IV. Only moderators & inXile can make new threads on this forum.

Moderator: Bard Hall Bouncers

User avatar
thebruce
Forum Moderator
Posts: 897
Joined: February 17th, 2015, 8:46 am
Contact:

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by thebruce » May 11th, 2016, 6:43 pm

Like fighting 500 berserkers in a 10' square......
Visit BardsTaleOnline.com - your community Bard's Tale classic RPG resource!
Twitter: @BardsTaleOnline / Facebook: Bards.Tale.Online
@thebruce0

kilobug
Adventurer
Posts: 890
Joined: September 21st, 2014, 1:07 am
Location: Paris, France

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by kilobug » May 12th, 2016, 1:26 am

Lucius wrote:Things like, having your actions have a noticeable effect on the world with major actions having far reaching consequences. Another example would be characters acting consistently and in a way that seems reasonable for the character.
Sure, but that's unrelated to using an existing universe or making a new one, it's a pretty orthogonal issue.
Lucius wrote:Highpool/Ag Center choice with tons of people at HQ wandering around pointlessly. It doesn't make sense there are 20 guys guarding a base but only 2 (?) field squads, one of which is made up of fresh recruited rookies.
Hrm, there are much more than two field squads active, as the constant radio chatter shows. And since two simultaneous attacks are very likely not a coincidence (and we learn it's not), it would be definitely suicidal to empty the base at exactly that time - it could very well have been the purpose of the two simultaneous attacks, make the rangers empty their HQ so the enemy can assault the HQ.

The Highpool/AG choice seems a bit tiny far-fetched, but much less than you imply. It calls upon your imagination to make it consistent (imagining why other squads are also busy) and giving a tiny bit of more info on that would probably have helped, but overall it's way within the scope of "plot device" in fiction.
Lucius wrote:Anyway, my point is, good writing will make a world feel deep and rich, whether a sequel or a new ip. Source material will certainly add depth, but there are more important things, like good writing and good world design that will far outweigh any preexisting setting.
But the only link between the two is that, since making a completly new settings requries more efforts, for the same total amount of resources spent, you're slightly _more_ likely to get good writing in a pre-existing settings, so how is it revelant ?
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:Give a fantasy setting too much depth and it loses much of its mystery and perceived richness. At times, paucity of information can add more enchantment than can plenitude.
That's when it's done wrong - giving more depth to a fantasy setting doesn't mean answering all questions and leaving none open. Actually, when you answer to a question in a smart way in a fantasy settings, you actually trigger a couple of new questions instead. And sure there are a few questions best left unanswered, but that's definitely compatible with a very rich and in-depth settings. Just look at Planescape - the Planescape product line was pretty large, 5 boxed sets, more than a dozen of one-book supplements and adventures, and yet it's full of wonder and mystery. And most material answer to many questions - but open more new questions than those they answer to.

User avatar
thebruce
Forum Moderator
Posts: 897
Joined: February 17th, 2015, 8:46 am
Contact:

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by thebruce » May 12th, 2016, 7:59 am

I think the 'depth' question is more an issue of world openness. The more depth you have, the less the story should be linear; the more freedom one should have to explore. The less depth you have, generally the more linear the plot and strict the characters and locations are in order to tell a story.
This is of course a generalization - some great single-plot RPGs have very deep worlds, but usually those are explored outside the video game; writers may create a vast universe in which the game takes place, but the game istelf is not that deep.

So if we're talking about a game with depth, I typically envision a much more open-world exploration mechanic, as opposed to a game universe with depth, which may allow for an open or linear game.

In the context of BT, it's fairly open-world, even though it does have a beginning and an end. I don't think it was designed to be a deep literary universe, but it's certainly open in that whatever access you have to everything makes sense with your progression through the primary plot arc.

So I would say I really don't mind deep universe, as long as the gameplay itself is open and makes sense in regards to exploring it.
Visit BardsTaleOnline.com - your community Bard's Tale classic RPG resource!
Twitter: @BardsTaleOnline / Facebook: Bards.Tale.Online
@thebruce0

_noblesse_oblige_
Explorer
Posts: 441
Joined: July 13th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » May 12th, 2016, 7:45 pm

kilobug wrote:
_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:Give a fantasy setting too much depth and it loses much of its mystery and perceived richness. At times, paucity of information can add more enchantment than can plenitude.
That's when it's done wrong - giving more depth to a fantasy setting doesn't mean answering all questions and leaving none open. Actually, when you answer to a question in a smart way in a fantasy settings, you actually trigger a couple of new questions instead. And sure there are a few questions best left unanswered, but that's definitely compatible with a very rich and in-depth settings.
When a group of friends can sit around chatting about barely-known deities, vaguely-described cultures, or the mostly-undefined workings of magic in a particular fantasy setting and develop twice as many hypotheses than there are friends, then that is a rich experience. When I am wandering around a town in some fantasy game, and this town has an evil wizard, a baron of dubious nature, and a good wizard all vying for control, I don't need to know the whole political background of the town and how it got to be the way it is; it is sufficient for me to know that I will be facing these actors at various points and dealing with them as part of my series of adventures. If that same town has a street, which I can walk down forever, I don't need to know whether I am stepping into a teleport on some part of the street and being sent back further up the street or whether space is warped or whether it is a very powerful illusion to prevent me from leaving the town by a different gate or whatever. Leave well enough alone and enjoy the mystery.

Letting some writer or designer fill in most of the details removes the player's imagination and the sense of mystery and wonder that can spring from that. Everyone thirsts for knowledge and wants answers. But, sometimes the refusal to yield up those answers provides the more rewarding experience to the player. I would not classify this as "doing it wrong".
cmibl<enter>

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8789
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Drool » May 13th, 2016, 2:10 pm

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:If that same town has a street, which I can walk down forever, I don't need to know whether I am stepping into a teleport on some part of the street and being sent back further up the street or whether space is warped or whether it is a very powerful illusion to prevent me from leaving the town by a different gate or whatever.
I have to say, my first experience with Sinister Street was amazing. I had no idea what was going on, but I loved it. It was weird and unexplained and perfect. And still there in BT3. If BT4 has Skara Brae but no Sinister Street, I'm gonna be mad. I would also like the developers' credits building.
kilobug wrote:That's partly what I like in Baldur's Gate or PST : the fact they are part of a large universe, and you can feel it.
Except that Dungeons and Dragons was designed with third party creation in mind. It's just a framework to hang your own story on. Transferring that to a computer game is easy enough. Potentially easier, in fact, because the volumes of explanatory text is external to the game. I don't need to know who Tasha is to cast her spell in some computer game, but if I want to learn, SSI doesn't need to tell me, a million D&D books will.

Wasteland, however, wasn't a framework to develop games. It was a game itself, so any sequel has to do more work to feel right and be "real". It's the difference between Baldur's Gate's relation to D&D and Baldur's Gate's relation to, say, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

Sacred_Path
Scholar
Posts: 100
Joined: November 25th, 2012, 9:17 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Sacred_Path » May 17th, 2016, 1:04 am

People complaining about combat puzzles potentially being repetitive confuse me - isn't repetitiveness in the combat system par for the course in a Bard's Tale game? ;)

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8789
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Drool » May 17th, 2016, 12:44 pm

Really? It does? You don't see just a slight difference between repetitive combat that can be keyed to a macro and repetitive combat that requires a fifteen step process of skill and spell juggling that has branching points at each step depending on how the AI reacts and/or potential resistances and immunities possessed by the monsters? No difference at all between combat that takes ten minutes of planning and careful execution as opposed to "AAAADDD".
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

Sacred_Path
Scholar
Posts: 100
Joined: November 25th, 2012, 9:17 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Sacred_Path » May 18th, 2016, 11:05 am

Drool wrote:Really? It does? You don't see just a slight difference between repetitive combat that can be keyed to a macro and repetitive combat that requires a fifteen step process of skill and spell juggling that has branching points at each step depending on how the AI reacts and/or potential resistances and immunities possessed by the monsters? No difference at all between combat that takes ten minutes of planning and careful execution as opposed to "AAAADDD".
there's no difference if the amount of combat encounters is reduced.

User avatar
sirchet
Initiate
Posts: 12
Joined: April 17th, 2012, 6:19 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by sirchet » June 28th, 2016, 4:29 pm

I personally love a deep story filled with fascinating lore, but I believe the search for in depth lore and understanding should be a choice and not a requirement.

Ahhhh, the joy of options. ;)
Help is good when asked for, better when needed.

Elth
Initiate
Posts: 18
Joined: June 15th, 2015, 10:31 pm

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Elth » July 11th, 2016, 11:23 pm

vv221 wrote:A BT4 update that makes everyone happy?!
Well done inXile :mrgreen:
...Everyone meaning those that are left here on the forums, those that no longer like the direction of the game are no longer here so beware the echochamber. I'll admit, back when this game was first announced I was expecting combat to be an evolution of Wasteland 2 and that's what I was hoping for. Since then, it's been nothing but disappointment for me and even though I've backed the game, I don't think I'll even get around to playing it when it comes out. I loved the original BT games, BTIII: Thief of Fate was my first ever RPG alongside Secret of the Silver Blades by TSR, and even though I love the story of Bards Tale, I don't think I could return to that style of combat even with graphical representation. I'd much rather something akin to Wasteland 2 or Shadowrun Returns.

You can't please everyone. Good luck though, I hope it works out.

SK_1759
Novice
Posts: 38
Joined: September 24th, 2015, 6:10 pm

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by SK_1759 » July 12th, 2016, 3:49 am

Elth wrote:
vv221 wrote:A BT4 update that makes everyone happy?!
Well done inXile :mrgreen:
...Everyone meaning those that are left here on the forums, those that no longer like the direction of the game are no longer here so beware the echochamber. I'll admit, back when this game was first announced I was expecting combat to be an evolution of Wasteland 2 and that's what I was hoping for. Since then, it's been nothing but disappointment for me and even though I've backed the game, I don't think I'll even get around to playing it when it comes out. I loved the original BT games, BTIII: Thief of Fate was my first ever RPG alongside Secret of the Silver Blades by TSR, and even though I love the story of Bards Tale, I don't think I could return to that style of combat even with graphical representation. I'd much rather something akin to Wasteland 2 or Shadowrun Returns.

You can't please everyone. Good luck though, I hope it works out.
BT4 Alpha isn't even out yet, but you've already passed judgement on the game?

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 2933
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Gizmo » July 12th, 2016, 10:46 am

SK_1759 wrote:BT4 Alpha isn't even out yet, but you've already passed judgement on the game?
This was often said of FO3 well before it shipped, but it was clear [and easy] to see its mistakes and short-comings even before it released. I haven't been keeping tabs on BT4 lately, though I'm still looking forward to it; but I find nothing premature about someone who has kept current with it, realizing well in advance that its aspects are not what they had hoped ~if they have determined such.

Myself, I was not hoping for a Wasteland 2 reskin, nor a Might & Magic (or even Grimrock) clone. I was honestly hoping for a Devil Whiskey clone using the Unreal engine; but what I've seen of BT4 does look impressive and has my interest; even though it is very un-Bard'sTale like.

User avatar
Crosmando
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5012
Joined: January 3rd, 2013, 8:48 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Crosmando » July 13th, 2016, 3:37 am

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:Give a fantasy setting too much depth and it loses much of its mystery and perceived richness. At times, paucity of information can add more enchantment than can plenitude.

Also, suspension of disbelief is a fairly essential element of magical fantasy. If almost everything is explained, then suspension of disbelief is harder to achieve and people will find logical inconsistencies in the setting to pick apart.
Very true, in fact now that I think about it many franchises that become popular do so because the "lore" is quite vague and scattered, which leads to a great feeling of mystery and speculation. It also makes sense that in a world where most people are illiterate and most knowledge is passed along orally, much would be lost over generations and only fragments remain.
Matthias did nothing wrong!

Elth
Initiate
Posts: 18
Joined: June 15th, 2015, 10:31 pm

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Elth » July 13th, 2016, 4:30 pm

SK_1759 wrote:
Elth wrote:
vv221 wrote:A BT4 update that makes everyone happy?!
Well done inXile :mrgreen:
...Everyone meaning those that are left here on the forums, those that no longer like the direction of the game are no longer here so beware the echochamber. I'll admit, back when this game was first announced I was expecting combat to be an evolution of Wasteland 2 and that's what I was hoping for. Since then, it's been nothing but disappointment for me and even though I've backed the game, I don't think I'll even get around to playing it when it comes out. I loved the original BT games, BTIII: Thief of Fate was my first ever RPG alongside Secret of the Silver Blades by TSR, and even though I love the story of Bards Tale, I don't think I could return to that style of combat even with graphical representation. I'd much rather something akin to Wasteland 2 or Shadowrun Returns.

You can't please everyone. Good luck though, I hope it works out.
BT4 Alpha isn't even out yet, but you've already passed judgement on the game?
Yes. I know what I like and from all the current information announced about BT4, it is not a game that I find interesting. I love the lore behind Bards Tale I-III, but I don't need to be part of alpha to see that this game isn't going to be something I'm interested in. I don't like blobbers, I never really liked M&M/Eye of the Beholder/Grimlock style games, I don't really like phased real-time combat or even real time with pause rpgs all that much. I like turn-based combat similar to Wasteland, Temple of Elemental Evil and Shadowrun Returns, I was kind of hoping that InXile were going to go down that route after Torment and Wasteland but sadly for me, that is not the case.

I can accept that this game is not for me, I'm not salty about it, but I think it was worth mentioning that not everyone is happy with the direction of the game and that just because those that frequent the forums might be happy, doesn't mean other backers are.

I am well aware that developers are not able to please all their fans, I accept that, I've cut my losses and I wish them all the best. If you cannot accept that, if you want to get salty over it, that's your prerogative. I'm happy to let it be and move on.

IHaveHugeNick
Master
Posts: 1175
Joined: September 23rd, 2014, 7:31 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by IHaveHugeNick » July 13th, 2016, 4:50 pm

It's dead Jim.
Two rite whiff care is quite a feet of witch won should be proud.

Sacred_Path
Scholar
Posts: 100
Joined: November 25th, 2012, 9:17 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Sacred_Path » July 14th, 2016, 2:59 am

> pledging to Bard's Tale IV
> not liking blobbers

User avatar
thebruce
Forum Moderator
Posts: 897
Joined: February 17th, 2015, 8:46 am
Contact:

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by thebruce » July 14th, 2016, 8:29 am

I can accept that this game is not for me, I'm not salty about it, but I think it was worth mentioning that not everyone is happy with the direction of the game and that just because those that frequent the forums might be happy, doesn't mean other backers are.
I would hope that a kickstarter aiming to be what it says doesn't change its direction because people who don't like what it says want it be something completely different. It's Bard's Tale 4. It's awesome that you supported inXile in their development of a new game, but I think it's presumptuous to expect that they not actually develop Bard's Tale 4, but another game you'd like to play.
I do hope that whatever they come up with in the end is something you'd be willing to try and play - you did support it (which is awesome) - but it is also good that you're not "salty" about that fact that BT4 won't be not-BT4 :P.
Ironically, those of us who backed because it's supposed to be BT4 are increasingly hoping it indeed won't be not-BT4! heh
Visit BardsTaleOnline.com - your community Bard's Tale classic RPG resource!
Twitter: @BardsTaleOnline / Facebook: Bards.Tale.Online
@thebruce0

_noblesse_oblige_
Explorer
Posts: 441
Joined: July 13th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » July 14th, 2016, 5:32 pm

Sacred_Path wrote:> pledging to Bard's Tale IV
> not liking blobbers
I'm guessing there was a missing word, like "real-time" as in "real-time combat", since EoB and Grimrock had that. Removes the logical inconsistency you seem to be highlighting and makes sense in the given context.
Elth wrote: I can accept that this game is not for me, I'm not salty about it, but I think it was worth mentioning that not everyone is happy with the direction of the game and that just because those that frequent the forums might be happy, doesn't mean other backers are.
This forum?? I wouldn't say that I've seen much happiness about the direction of game development here.
thebruce wrote: Ironically, those of us who backed because it's supposed to be BT4 are increasingly hoping it indeed won't be not-BT4! heh
Heh. Were you not always told in school to not use double negatives?
cmibl<enter>

Sacred_Path
Scholar
Posts: 100
Joined: November 25th, 2012, 9:17 am

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by Sacred_Path » July 15th, 2016, 6:26 am

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:I'm guessing there was a missing word, like "real-time" as in "real-time combat", since EoB and Grimrock had that. Removes the logical inconsistency you seem to be highlighting and makes sense in the given context.
BTIV is not real time, so it still doesn't make sense.

And expecting an isometric tactics game makes even less sense.

User avatar
thebruce
Forum Moderator
Posts: 897
Joined: February 17th, 2015, 8:46 am
Contact:

Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 29: Glorious Combat

Post by thebruce » July 15th, 2016, 6:51 am

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
thebruce wrote: Ironically, those of us who backed because it's supposed to be BT4 are increasingly hoping it indeed won't be not-BT4! heh
Heh. Were you not always told in school to not use double negatives?
Nope, I wasn't never not always told. Only maybe sometimes, when and if it was not required but recommended unweakly.

That said, there is something to be said about emphasis ;) I think there is a stronger hope in the community that it indeed won't be something that we could classify as 'not-BT4'. That leaves some room for flexibility and artistic interpretation of the brand/series, while not channeling a much more restrictive view of what BT4 "is" (since it "isn't" yet).

Wow, english. Y u must asplode my brain?
Visit BardsTaleOnline.com - your community Bard's Tale classic RPG resource!
Twitter: @BardsTaleOnline / Facebook: Bards.Tale.Online
@thebruce0

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests