Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

[jrodman]

I feel like Dungeon Master is a traditional all its own, but games closer to bard's tale did it too, for sure.

[Zombra]

Agreed - I want a "what you see is what you get" implementation as well. I think Brian is on the same page there so hopefully we'll be good.

And sure, games with "popup" enemies can still be great! I just can't remember any games that I liked because the enemies weren't visible. To me that is the test of whether a classic mechanic is good for its own sake, or faithfulness for faithfulness' sake at the expense of good gameplay.

[Gizmo]

It looks to me like BT4 will be a modern twist on the 'Realms of Arkania' series ~sans the excellent character generation, rules and mechanics.
(Not counting that one they just made last year. )

*That doesn't mean that I think BT4 won't have its own excellent character generation; but it's a good bet that it won't have the one from RoA.

[ZiN]

It looks to me like BT4 will be a modern twist on the 'Realms of Arkania' series ~sans the excellent character generation, rules and mechanics.

What makes you think so?
RoA had "invisible" enemies, isometric, turn-based combat with individual-initiative, 6+1 characters, who you could import in the sequels, non-Scottish fantasy world, based on the most successful german P&P setting, sans Witcher-grimdark oppressive theocratic rulership, large scale overland travel, with "tactical" camping and relatively low-magic.

[Gizmo]

[Brother None]

It looks to me like BT4 will be a modern twist on the 'Realms of Arkania' series ~sans the excellent character generation, rules and mechanics.

What makes you think so?
RoA had "invisible" enemies, isometric, turn-based combat with individual-initiative, 6+1 characters, who you could import in the sequels, non-Scottish fantasy world, based on the most successful german P&P setting, sans Witcher-grimdark oppressive theocratic rulership, large scale overland travel, with "tactical" camping and relatively low-magic.

I don't see a lot of similarities either except to say I fucking love Realms of Arkania.

[Gizmo]

Seriously? (And I took it for jest.)

There is not too much info available yet ~that I have seen, but this is what I was thinking about...

Core mechanics (in the abstract):

• FPP exploration for a full party of varied adventurers, and that pulls back into tactical turn based TPP view for combat
  • (Though at that level, the comparison would match even Pool of Radiance.)
• Typical dungeon crawler floor and wall interactions? [pits, trap doors; buttons, levers, secrets, and break-away bricks]
• Up close [big head] conversations (if any, or at least in city buildings ~hopefully).
  

BT features not to forget:

• Intra-Party attack option; needed due to dopplegangers, mind altering spell effects ~(or perhaps even PC ethics).
• Anti magic zones
• Hiring option for wandering NPCs ~and monsters; but it could be that large towns refuse them entry... what then? [leave/split/fight? ]

RoA features and other suggestions that I'd like if they were in...

• Exploit the Dark Domain gag (at least once). If it was truly dark ~pitch black... then the party really could have original style pop-up monster encounters.
• Splitting the party into groups (with alternate sub-grids for less PCs in each group).
  • Including losing [splitting of] party members who refuse to continue on... out of fear or disagreement
• An overland map. BT series had FPP city to city travel, which I liked ~when it was abstracted to >32 steps, but if there are to be several city locations, I would certainly not want only the option to trudge along in FPP to get there; especially if I'd been there before. ROA's map was pretty darn good IMO, and really imparted the scale of distance, and the risks of travel in open country.
• Tavern interaction par with RoA; and not simply to get the bard drunk. << This one has a lot of potential
  • (Most will have a traveling entertainer in the party.)
• Shops akin to ROA Blacksmiths. (Did I read somewhere that shops are out? )
• When on-grid [if?]; have that large monsters can potentially hit sub-grid slots on adjacent tiles during an attack.
  
  • 
    This way, dancing around a monster comes with a bit more risk to it, in that dodging left or right has a chance that the left or right PCs can get hit.

[Drool]

Including losing [splitting of] party members who refuse to continue on... out of fear or disagreement

I trust you mean for NPCs to do this, not PCs...

[Gizmo]

Including losing [splitting of] party members who refuse to continue on... out of fear or disagreement

I trust you mean for NPCs to do this, not PCs...

Of course I meant PCs... Provided the character gen is advanced enough... but if not, then ~there'd be no point.

(Think of it this way... If you were playing Indiana Jones exploring a catacomb, and the player had the casual choice of two paths, and one went through 500 rats... The PC should not balk at that one?)

RoA actually handled this pretty well. The PC warned the party that they could not, or would not, continue, then auto-split if the player continued onward; the player could still control the split PC, but not force them to follow the others.

[vv221]

(Think of it this way... If you were playing Indiana Jones exploring a catacomb, and the player had the casual choice of two paths, and one went through 500 rats... The PC should not balk at that one?)

Nice try, but Indy has a phobia of snakes, not rats ;)
It’s his father who is terrified by rats.
[/nitpicking]

[thebruce]

• When on-grid [if?]; have that large monsters can potentially hit sub-grid slots on adjacent tiles during an attack.
  
  • 
    This way, dancing around a monster comes with a bit more risk to it, in that dodging left or right has a chance that the left or right PCs can get hit.

Ugh, this is a huge visual departure from classic BT... this is not what I'd hope for in BT4. Fine in another game, not BT4 please.

[Gizmo]

(Think of it this way... If you were playing Indiana Jones exploring a catacomb, and the player had the casual choice of two paths, and one went through 500 rats... The PC should not balk at that one?)

Nice try, but Indy has a phobia of snakes, not rats
It’s his father who is terrified by rats.
[/nitpicking]

That's right, it was the father that was phobic of rats. So just say that the other tunnel had snakes in it.

[Themadcow]

Ugh, this is a huge visual departure from classic BT... this is not what I'd hope for in BT4. Fine in another game, not BT4 please.

Whether visually like that or not (remember the zoomed out 3rd person idea...), the update that explained the grid system certainly suggests that proximity buffs and damage types are going to be in the game. I still expect that 'party first person' will be the default combat view, but a grid view to also be available in some form.

[thebruce]

Yeah i sounds like they will be. And I mentioned in another comment, I'm not necessarily against proximity effects, but I'd rather they be relegated to collateral, secondary effects as opposed to directed/target primary spells or actions. For example, strategizing and performing a regular attack might have the added bonus of a proximity stat boost, as opposed to a spell or using an item and determining whereabouts in your party's formation you'd like to use it for optimal effect. The first maintains that linear us-v-them battle gameplay where the latter becomes a much more literal meat-space tactical combat mechanic.
(I always feel I need to add the disclaimer that this is not me saying it's a bad mechanic, it's just not Bard's Tale ;P)

[Lucius]

Ugh, this is a huge visual departure from classic BT... this is not what I'd hope for in BT4. Fine in another game, not BT4 please.

Whether visually like that or not (remember the zoomed out 3rd person idea...), the update that explained the grid system certainly suggests that proximity buffs and damage types are going to be in the game. I still expect that 'party first person' will be the default combat view, but a grid view to also be available in some form.

It sounds like a grid view will be required, which is why they wanted 3rd person combat in the first place. A grid will probably be on the combat UI, and we position portraits. Yeah it will play the same way but it won't feel the same. I wish all this was explained earlier because I think it's really cool, having positioning important, but without 3rd person camera, I don't really care. It's not like we'll see the arcing attacks hitting multiple positions and spells with splash damage. So eh.

[Crosmando]

Ugh, this is a huge visual departure from classic BT... this is not what I'd hope for in BT4. Fine in another game, not BT4 please.

Whether visually like that or not (remember the zoomed out 3rd person idea...), the update that explained the grid system certainly suggests that proximity buffs and damage types are going to be in the game. I still expect that 'party first person' will be the default combat view, but a grid view to also be available in some form.

It sounds like a grid view will be required, which is why they wanted 3rd person combat in the first place.

*cough*

[Lucius]

*cough*

Yeah I said grid on the UI, which is really lame in 2015, where you have a UI element replacing what can be done visually in the world. It seems backwards. Less UI is better and like I said will not have the same feel as seeing your character actually physically take a hit.

[Crosmando]

What wouldn't have the same "feel" is a Bard's Tale game which looks like a JRPG in combat. It wouldn't feel like a BT game. BT is definetely in the same family as Wizardry and Might & Magic, not FF Tactics and Suikoden. BT4 looks like it's already going to be taking quite a few steps away from the original trilogy, I'd prefer if it didn't end up looking like some kind of Frankenstein abomination.

Also what's the deal with "in 2015" thing, the whole "things are better because they're newer" fallacy, I expect to see that in the comments for a Kotaku article but not here.

[Gizmo]

Ugh, this is a huge visual departure from classic BT... this is not what I'd hope for in BT4. Fine in another game, not BT4 please.

So?
(It's certainly not indicative of presentation; top-down is the simplest and clearest example to impart the exact point about the sub-grids, and show where the weapon would strike.)

Also what's the deal with "in 2015" thing, the whole "things are better because they're newer" fallacy, I expect to see that in the comments for a Kotaku article but not here.

It's generally propagated by new people; people with a vested interest in new things being better things. It's a false assumption that sometimes proves to be true...and quietly ignored by them when it proves to be false.

[thebruce]

Ugh, this is a huge visual departure from classic BT... this is not what I'd hope for in BT4. Fine in another game, not BT4 please.

So?
(It's certainly not indicative of presentation; top-down is the simplest and clearest example to impart the exact point about the sub-grids, and show where the weapon would strike.)

Like I expounded upon, it's not existence of the visualization of battle in a grid, it's the tactical content of the combat process which may include primarily grid-focused visual strategies, as opposed to the linear us-v-them back and forth combat. That's what doesn't feel Bard's Tale.

I could depict the classic combat mechanic in a grid-style layout too. That doesn't bother me