Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

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ZiN
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » June 29th, 2018, 12:59 am

PsychicMonk wrote:
June 28th, 2018, 6:11 am
The things he said about his novels don't sound encouraging:
"...and into which I poured all the things I like in fiction – high adventure, low humor, slapstick, snappy banter, and way way way too many metaphors"
Well, for all I care, he can write whatever he wants in his own novels, but I most certainly don't want him to pour his slapstick fart joke metaphors into one of my favourite classic dungeon-crawlers.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Lix » June 29th, 2018, 4:14 am

Humor is subjective, but I think Nathan's style has been pretty popular with old school fans. The large varieties of collectable shit in WL2 were a big hit with streamers - one guy nearly soiled himself when he read out the "smells like they ate curry" line.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by PsychicMonk » June 29th, 2018, 5:59 am

Lix wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 4:14 am
Humor is subjective, but I think Nathan's style has been pretty popular with old school fans. The large varieties of collectable shit in WL2 were a big hit with streamers - one guy nearly soiled himself when he read out the "smells like they ate curry" line.
Well, of all the games I have backed, WL2 was by far the biggest disappointment ...
Last edited by PsychicMonk on June 29th, 2018, 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by thebruce » June 29th, 2018, 7:03 am

And WL2 isn't Bard's Tale
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Gizmo » June 29th, 2018, 10:21 am

thebruce wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 7:03 am
And WL2 isn't Bard's Tale
What would your opinion be of a BT4 that was to BT3, the way WL2 was to WL1?

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by thebruce » June 29th, 2018, 10:44 am

All I know of WL2 to WL1 is what I've read on the forums. I can't assume the community supporting WL is the same as the community supporting BT. So someone might think the changes to WL2 were good for WL; how I can I disagree with that except to appeal to the dissenting opinions of those who are also BT fans as I?
WL isn't BT, not in community nor in story/plot. If the author's treatment of WL2 on its own merit is anything indicative of his treatment of BT4, then despite some thinking WL2 is good, the style is not condusive, imo, to a good BT4 sequel.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Zombra » June 29th, 2018, 12:28 pm

thebruce wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 10:44 am
All I know of WL2 to WL1 is what I've read on the forums. I can't assume the community supporting WL is the same as the community supporting BT. So someone might think the changes to WL2 were good for WL; how I can I disagree with that except to appeal to the dissenting opinions of those who are also BT fans as I?
To weigh in quickly*, I was (and am) a Wasteland 1 hardliner.** I lobbied for many of the old systems and idioms to be enacted in Wasteland 2. My big difference was that, in every case, when I lobbied for something old, I explained why it was good for gameplay.
*Well, I tried.
**I'm not Drool, but I still consider myself reasonably "old guard" re: Wasteland.

Example: in Wasteland 1, healing over time plus proliferation of random encounters on every map created a very interesting dynamic and a lot of decision making. Is this a safe enough spot to "rest" while still being attacked periodically by local creatures? Should I try to get back to town to pay the doctor to heal instead? Can I hang on here and heal enough to keep moving forward? Can I even make it back to town at all without healing first? In Wasteland 2, the removal of these two systems removed the feeling of danger, removed that decision making, and removed the sense of teeming life from the first game. These are all clear, articulable gameplay declines. In W2 you "clear" areas and then that is it; the game becomes progressively more empty as you advance through it. Especially bad because there is a lot of backtracking.

There were some (not all, but some) changes from W1 to W2 that did improve the game in my opinion. W2 introduced substantial dialogue. CNPCs can be rehired after they're dismissed. New skills like Animal Whisperer and Outdoorsman added new gameplay wrinkles. Quirks and Perks increased character development interest. Even the new camera angle is more visually engaging. "Old for old's sake" wouldn't have allowed for any of this.

I never felt that "because it's old", by itself, was sufficient reason to vociferously insist on anything to be carried over to the new game. What I'm seeing with the BT4 hardliners is the persistent implication that age and virtue are synonymous: that which is old must automatically be superior, and vice versa. I would like to see fewer arguments that begin and end with "do it the old way because it's old". I would like to see more "the old way is more fun because the old gameplay is engaging in such and such a way that the new way doesn't measure up to".
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by thebruce » June 29th, 2018, 12:51 pm

Zombra wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 12:28 pm
I never felt that "because it's old", by itself, was sufficient reason to vociferously insist on anything to be carried over to the new game. What I'm seeing with the BT4 hardliners is the persistent implication that age and virtue are synonymous: that which is old must automatically be superior, and vice versa. I would like to see fewer arguments that begin and end with "do it the old way because it's old". I would like to see more "the old way is more fun because the old gameplay is engaging in such and such a way that the new way doesn't measure up to".
No offense but that's a big strawman.

I've never seen anyone argue "do it the old way because it's old", and on the contrary, speaking for myself, I do my best to explain why something from the classics is a good gameplay mechanic, and not obsolete merely "because it's old" (which seem like a common sentiment about many game mechanics we're desiring). If there's anything I advocate for purely nostalgia's sake, it's unrelated to gameplay mechanics entirely - as far as I'm concerned - and more than likely story/lore-related.

Discussion about what to bring forward in a sequel should always be partnered with reasoning as to why it would be good for the game. Never "because I loved it and want to see it again". For one, that's purely subjective; it's also vague, risky, argumentative, and self-focused.
And that goes both ways. Never shoot an idea down just "because it's old".
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » June 29th, 2018, 12:53 pm

Zombra wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 12:28 pm
I never felt that "because it's old", by itself, was sufficient reason to vociferously insist on anything to be carried over to the new game. What I'm seeing with the BT4 hardliners is the persistent implication that age and virtue are synonymous: that which is old must automatically be superior, and vice versa. I would like to see fewer arguments that begin and end with "do it the old way because it's old". I would like to see more "the old way is more fun because the old gameplay is engaging in such and such a way that the new way doesn't measure up to".
Hmm, do you have any examples of me, or the other hardliners saying that something is better, just because it's old? Fargo and InXile sure are insinuating that, but I doubt there is any evidence. If you find some examples, I'll be glad to give details.
thebruce wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 12:51 pm
Discussion about what to bring forward in a sequel should always be partnered with reasoning as to why it would be good for the game. Never "because I loved it and want to see it again". For one, that's purely subjective; it's also vague, risky, argumentative, and self-focused.
That's mostly the way of the BT2004 fans. Most of their feedback I read is along the lines of "It was hilarious, I want more drunken songs and fun stuff lol!"

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Zombra » June 29th, 2018, 1:09 pm

thebruce wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 12:51 pm
Discussion about what to bring forward in a sequel should always be partnered with reasoning as to why it would be good for the game. Never "because I loved it and want to see it again". For one, that's purely subjective; it's also vague, risky, argumentative, and self-focused.
And that goes both ways. Never shoot an idea down just "because it's old".
Agreed. Glad we're on the same page. :)
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Gizmo » June 29th, 2018, 4:03 pm

What about the examples?

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » June 29th, 2018, 8:17 pm

ZiN wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 12:53 pm
Zombra wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 12:28 pm
I never felt that "because it's old", by itself, was sufficient reason to vociferously insist on anything to be carried over to the new game. What I'm seeing with the BT4 hardliners is the persistent implication that age and virtue are synonymous: that which is old must automatically be superior, and vice versa. I would like to see fewer arguments that begin and end with "do it the old way because it's old". I would like to see more "the old way is more fun because the old gameplay is engaging in such and such a way that the new way doesn't measure up to".
Hmm, do you have any examples of me, or the other hardliners saying that something is better, just because it's old? Fargo and InXile sure are insinuating that, but I doubt there is any evidence. If you find some examples, I'll be glad to give details.
Count me in on ZiN's challenge! I'll be glad to clarify any misconceptions as well.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Zombra » June 29th, 2018, 11:48 pm

I feel like I've seen it a lot, but I don't have the time or energy to do the research to prove it. I'm happy to concede that this characterization is unproven at the moment, and hope that moving forward you will all continue to prove me wrong :)
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » June 30th, 2018, 2:06 am

I have a good counterexample though:
InXile seems to be including "grid-based movement" just for the sake of being "old-school", rather than designing a proper grid-based dungeon-crawler. They didn't show anything so far, that indicates otherwise, but coming beta, we will know anyway.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Lord of Riva » June 30th, 2018, 5:14 am

ZiN wrote:
June 30th, 2018, 2:06 am
I have a good counterexample though:
InXile seems to be including "grid-based movement" just for the sake of being "old-school", rather than designing a proper grid-based dungeon-crawler. They didn't show anything so far, that indicates otherwise, but coming beta, we will know anyway.
i echo Zombras time and energy argument.

Did we ever hear a good reason why grid based movement is better than free-form movement from the old guard?

I dont mind either, really as it all depends on what they do with what they choose, doing both sounds indeed like a waste of ressources though.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Gizmo » June 30th, 2018, 5:47 am

Lord of Riva wrote:
June 30th, 2018, 5:14 am
Did we ever hear a good reason why grid based movement is better than free-form movement from the old guard?
Of course. ;)

But no one has argued that Free movement is better or worse than Grid movement; it is that they have different suitabilities; different strength's and weaknesses—and bring along different problems. Arguably the strengths of Free move are detrimental to a traditionally grid based series; as they discard the very mechanic that allows the player to accurately gauge distance in the game, and extrapolate the map—and possible hidden features of it. It is the very aspect of Free-Move that has been given as the reason for the ineffectiveness of spinners, for instance.

One could mention the loss of player ability to tap out a sequence, and have the party move to the exact desired position in the game, but a greater problem is that the game is no longer setup for such a positioning to matter, and likely has no support for detecting the party on a given tile.

That brings it to the point that with merely tacked on grid-step, the game features are not designed around it, and puzzles that require it—won't exist, because the default is Free Move; and those puzzles could be nigh impossible for the default movement method; in the very least, a striking, and unwanted difficulty spike.

I remember that Menzoberranzan shipped with Free Move as the default, and grid-step as an afterthought, and it turns out that they did not test the game well enough using Grid-Step, and there are areas of the maps that assume free movement—and are impassable without it.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » June 30th, 2018, 6:01 am

Lord of Riva wrote:
June 30th, 2018, 5:14 am
Did we ever hear a good reason why grid based movement is better than free-form movement from the old guard?
A nice little 12 page discussion here. On page 4 Gizmo actually convinces Zombra about grid-based movement having direct gameplay benefits.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by thebruce » June 30th, 2018, 7:18 am

And arguing that grid-based is fundamentally old-school by technology - strongly argued against in said thread linked above, plenty of modern games adopt a grid-style gameplay mechanic (whether squares, octagons, hexagons, etc). It's part of the gameplay mechanic, whether digital games or desktop games. It's a mentality, not a technology point. So no, making a grid-locked isn't "old school" or obsolete. Making it free-move is a different navigational mechanic that has never been in a Bard's Tale. If anything, it should be developed grid first, then allowed to be unlocked for free movement. THAT would be more in line with a 'modern sequel'.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Zombra » June 30th, 2018, 9:51 am

Yep, I remember that. Thanks for the reminder ZiN :)
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Lord of Riva » June 30th, 2018, 1:57 pm

thebruce wrote:
June 30th, 2018, 7:18 am
"old school"
no Design is ever inherently obsolete, i would never argue that. you could probably paint some really beautiful pictures on cave Walls with animal Blood even at this day and age ;)

That does not mean though that we shouldnt explore the benefits and detriments of these things (im not gonna mention saving here :D )

when i was referring to the old guard it was merely an offhanded generalization that those invested in Videogames when the Grid-based dungeon crawlers were the trend. No offense meant.

Thanks for the links at ZiN

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