Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » April 24th, 2018, 4:25 pm

@thebruce, you have to stop posting these external news links. They're not good for my blood pressure.
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Gizmo » April 24th, 2018, 10:25 pm

Drool wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 2:38 pm
He thinks the series started in 2004, doesn't he?
The article starts with this:
Not many realize it, but it’s true: The Bard’s Tale is one of the oldest franchises in gaming history. The dark-humor adventure/RPG began as a 1985 Apple II title under the direction of Michael Cranford with help from Brian Fargo, and Fargo has carried the torch ever since.
(...but who knows? He may have been talking about himself, and had just tacked it on in the end, as a CYOA.)

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Lix » April 24th, 2018, 11:15 pm

Rogers explained the silly tone and humor help define what makes The Bard’s Tale IV more than your standard dungeon crawler, although those elements are there too.
Sounds like they've realized that a big chunk of the current Bard's Tale fanbase wants a sequel to the comedy game, so they've made BT4 a comedy game. I don't mind it myself, but I can understand if "true" Bard's Tale fans feel confused.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » April 25th, 2018, 1:53 am

thebruce wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 2:16 pm
"If you liked the old Bard's Tale, you get to go back to all these old places and see what's happened to them in the past 100 years." --- I like this.
Yeah, I wonder, what "old places" they're talking about.
Lix wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 11:15 pm
Rogers explained the silly tone and humor help define what makes The Bard’s Tale IV more than your standard dungeon crawler, although those elements are there too.
Sounds like they've realized that a big chunk of the current Bard's Tale fanbase wants a sequel to the comedy game, so they've made BT4 a comedy game. I don't mind it myself, but I can understand if "true" Bard's Tale fans feel confused.
If that is true, it upsets me greatly, that false advertising and lying, is taken so lightly around there. In my book, this is unacceptable.
Tell me of another book/movie/game series, where somewhere in the middle, they completely changed the tone and switched to a parody of the previous titles. Then again, most book/movie/game makers don't take the money before the product is finished, with the promise of delivering a faithful sequel. I remember that it was specifically emphasized several times, that BT4 is NOT connected in any way to the 2004 comedy (even though they like it much). Looks like that changed along the road, with the assumption, that it will be forgotten in 3 years of production and no one will notice what happened. I really don't like being taken as a senile fool, thank you very much!
Rogers explained the silly tone and humor help define what makes The Bard’s Tale IV more than your standard dungeon crawler, although those elements are there too.
See, that's what I'm talking about. Suddenly, the "silly tone and humor" helps define Bard's Tale, as opposed to 3 years ago, when it was emphasized that the "2004 humorous game" had nothing to do with it. In one way it's good marketing speech, but "my standard dungeon-crawler" is fine without the stupid, dumb "humour" you insert into it:
It's like a Shrek movie. There's jokes for everyone, and some jokes for people in the know that don't make the movie less enjoyable...
You know, mentioning movies adding jokes isn't the best idea, after the atrocities Disney/Lucasfilm committed on the Star Wars franchise recently (and there is more to come). The "jokes" in that trash not only made it "less enjoyable" for me, but actually made me furious, by destroying and tainting characters, things and concepts, that lived in my mind, fondly remembered, for 30 years.
My hands-on party included a bard who provided some damage and defense buffs. And drank. A lot. Booze fuels the special moves for bards, similar to the way mana potions might fuel magic.
I prefer my bards actually playing some music, instead of drinking. Playing the Galvanic Oboe, and Lak's Lyre, or using the Song Axe and the Bardsword will make sure they won't miss any notes when you need them the most. Of course, burping and fooling around in a drunken voice is easier, than producing music by playing actual instruments.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Lix » April 25th, 2018, 2:27 am

ZiN wrote:
April 25th, 2018, 1:53 am
I prefer my bards actually playing some music, instead of drinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrEFWv8aSQ8

I wonder if we'll see a new version of this in BT4.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » April 25th, 2018, 2:58 am

I really hope not. (Remember, BT4 has nothing to do, with the "2004 humorous game" and instead is a proper sequel to the Bard's Tale trilogy.)
On the other hand, I'd like to hear the new version (where applicable, played on real instruments, by real artists) of
THESE


V

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by thebruce » April 25th, 2018, 7:08 am

All of the above.

Also a side note, inXile, I've been really attempting to help promote BT4 on Twitter with @BTO by being positive and liking, linking to, and retweeting news articles that give it a good name... but it's getting harder and harder when the running theme of these articles are misunderstandings about the series, primarily that BT4 is in any way (other than the same developer) a followup to BT2004 (and all that goes with that).
That is really getting under my skin, and I really hate to say it... :|
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by PsychicMonk » April 25th, 2018, 1:46 pm

ZiN wrote:
April 25th, 2018, 2:58 am
I really hope not. (Remember, BT4 has nothing to do, with the "2004 humorous game" and instead is a proper sequel to the Bard's Tale trilogy.)
On the other hand, I'd like to hear the new version (where applicable, played on real instruments, by real artists) of
THESE


V
I really like the MIDISynth version of Traveller's Tune. Was it recorded via real Hardware? Copying Tool035 as stated in the ref card didn't change anything when I tried it in kegs (I probably did something wrong since I don't know much about apple IIGS computers).

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » April 26th, 2018, 2:56 am

It was recorded using the KEGS32 emulator, alas I don't own an original Apple IIGS computer.
If you like the Traveller's Tune, there is also an excellent Remix by Chris Prattini.
And another one by Pieces of 8-bit, along with remasters of all classic BT bard songs. Check them out and enjoy! : )

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by PsychicMonk » April 26th, 2018, 4:04 am

ZiN wrote:
April 26th, 2018, 2:56 am
It was recorded using the KEGS32 emulator, alas I don't own an original Apple IIGS computer.
If you like the Traveller's Tune, there is also an excellent Remix by Chris Prattini.
And another one by Pieces of 8-bit, along with remasters of all classic BT bard songs. Check them out and enjoy! : )
Thank you for the links but I already knew those. I did play the c64 remix on loop for quite some time when it was released on RKO.
Last edited by PsychicMonk on April 26th, 2018, 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by demeisen » April 26th, 2018, 9:12 am

Lix wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 11:15 pm
Rogers explained the silly tone and humor help define what makes The Bard’s Tale IV more than your standard dungeon crawler
Sounds like they've realized that a big chunk of the current Bard's Tale fanbase wants a sequel to the comedy game
I wonder how it really falls out. The originals were almost entirely non-comedic, aside from a few minor things. Then 2004 came along and bifurcated what people thought BT was. There are certainly many people for whom "BT" means "BT2004" (partly because they weren't alive when BT1 came out), but I wouldn't want to minimize how much the originals are still remembered fondly. BT1 was the single best selling CRPG of an entire decade.

(Aside: I watched this play out with Obsidian's PoE also. PoE1 had some dry humor, but was primarily a macabre atmosphere - one of the first things you encounter is a tree filled with strung up rotting corpses, and the backstory of how they found themselves there. Many of the subplots and side quests dealt with unpleasant sides of human nature. I enjoyed its darker tone, but I also heard a lot of push-back from players about how it was way too grim, and they wanted a more light hearted game. Clearly both camps exist).

It's a little hard to get a read on BT4. I was glad to see that the voice acting in the alpha was darkened up relative to some of the earlier development videos. E.g, this exchange, where I thought the voice actors did a fine job of portraying the sense of nervousness you'd expect on entering a dangerous place. Hat's off to the actors for not hamming that up. On the other hand, it certainly doesn't help to have developers saying "jokes for everyone!" as if that was a feature of the originals.

Also: Kudus for bringing back some of the original area layouts. That'll be nicely nostalgic.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by thebruce » May 3rd, 2018, 8:48 am

New gamesindustry.biz article.

I'll just leave a few quotes here...
"We can't rely on nostalgia to sell," Fargo said. "And nostalgia is a two-edged sword. Because a lot of people's emotional attachment to the incredible experiences they had playing these games to begin with, were are at a moment in time that can never be recreated. It was like, 'I was in a dorm room with all my friends staying up all night and I didn't have a care in the world.' That feeling of playing that game? I could never recreate it, because maybe you got bills to pay, kids to feed, and you don't have that same light-heartedness."
...
The Bard's Tale IV. While it's a follow-up to a trilogy of PC role-playing games he created for Electronic Arts in the '80s, Fargo said it's not trying to present a time capsule of what a fourth Bard's Tale game would have been.

"I jokingly call it Bard's Tale 20, because a true Bard's Tale IV would have looked very different in 1995...you don't want to literally come out with a product as if it were 1995. That's just not smart. So we tried to take the best parts of the essence of Bard's Tale, keep them, but give them a new perspective."

Fargo believes a truly faithful recreation of the original experiences could rely on nostalgia to carry it "for about two seconds" before players would get frustrated and fed up with it.

"There's a group of people that if I did a straight-up Bard's Tale that looked like it was from 1995, they'd love it," Fargo said. "But I would go out of business. So I need to make that core group happy. I'm going to give them their characters, their spells, give them a lot of the locations.
These sentiments are sinking in, slowly, and not sitting well.

Feeling like if anyone implies some aspect of the game "doesn't feel like Bard's Tale" in any way, they're relegated as someone who wants to see Bard's Tale IV "look like it's from 1995"... or is someone who needs to be satiated by some patchwork 'to make them happy'. :(
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Gizmo » May 3rd, 2018, 10:19 am

And there is the problem. BT4 was paid for before development began... and yet they want to tailor it to the modern market. That's not entirely unlike as if Atari had done a Kickstarter to recreate an original 2600 that played the original cartridges... and got funded by people who owned the cartridges, and wanted a new 2600 system—paid them for (the creation of) it... but along the way they decide that they really need to include sales opportunities from the modern market; to be able to broadly sell it to as many people as possible—even those who have never heard of an Atari 2600; own no cartridges, and have no interest in funding such an endeavor.

And so you would wind up getting an Atari-box that looks like a 2600, but with a Steam overlay, and a (brilliant) cartridge adapter that converts the rom to some some mobile-multi-arcade format like AppGameKit; and that lets them sell Steam titles built for it. That's bait & switch, and you would never get the 2600 device... because getting paid for it isn't enough, they want a leg of the development to be paid for, on their way to selling it beyond the niche group who provided the money.

I would have been happy with a Devil Whiskey clone.... And I never played BT 1 or 3 until the early 2000's. I bought InXile's BT2004—because (and only because) it came with BT1,2, & 3 installers. I have no fond memories of olde for them. I had BT2 sometime in the early 90's Not when it shipped originally; though I had seen BT1 in the stores, and played it once at a friend's house... for a few minutes.
(I beat BT2, but I still haven't played BT 1 or 3 or Dragonwars for more than 30 minutes each.)

I would have lowered my tier had I known the game to come of this; backed it still—for sake of encouragement of Kickstarter, and its potential for game developers, but would have had no interest in it—regardless of merits; which it does certainly have.... just not those of the BT series.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by demeisen » May 3rd, 2018, 1:45 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 10:19 am
And there is the problem. BT4 was paid for before development began...
I've seen several people claim that, but I still highly doubt we paid for it. The numbers just don't add up, for a US-developed game. They got around $1.5m from KS, which when you consider how much overhead there is per capita (studio space, benefits, FICA, etc), might be around 7 man-years, and that doesn't even talk about licensing external assets, the UE4 cut, GOG and Steam cuts, paying musicians, voice actors, admin staff, post-release support people, post-release updates, and so on. It's a ~ 3.5 year development, so I think it can only be heavily in the red unless they get significant non-backer post release sales. That means also catering to people who don't frequent this forum and who may never have played the classics. We can't assume that all those 34K KS backers want what the most vocal few do either. Now you can argue they could have made a BT1-ish update on the cheap, but (a) that's very clearly not what they showed in the original teaser video, and (b) Fargo is probably not wrong: pure BT-original-style would flop badly in 2018, relative to the levels even a modest sized studio needs to sell at to remain in business.

My personal top wishes for BT4 dynamics are things that CRPG gamers have largely come to loathe in recent decades, and which games have moved steadily away from. (I've seen long threads in other CRPG's forums, with people threatening to never buy another game if it included some of them). I hope to see some appear in BT4, but if too many people fight the "it's not BT!" war to its bitter end, my fear is that it'll mean killing off the turn based blobber (TBB?) sub-genre entirely. There's a 15-years-old dead-end Devil's Whiskey that saw poor-ish reviews blasting it as excessively repetitive, crash-prone, and cumbersome. There are "action RPGs" tailored for game controllers built around 1st or 3rd person shooter mechanics. It's not like we've got new TBB every month, and if BT4 isn't BT-enough, we just wait a little bit for Electronic Arts or Blizzard to crank out another one for us, supporting secondary OSs and DRM-free distributors like GOG.

Personally, I'm inclined to accept the limitations of the horse we're hitched to, while trying to nudge it in directions I want to go, rather than whip it for not running with the young thoroughbred genres or being able to do all the things it did when it was three, rather than thirty three.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » May 3rd, 2018, 2:26 pm

There's a group of people that if I did a straight-up Bard's Tale that looked like it was from 1995, they'd love it...
Really? Point me in the direction, where I could find that group, please! Around here, most of us will be satisfied with Bard's Tale Remastered, for all our 1995 needs, and definitely don't want BT4 to look like it's from 1995. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt if it played like a classic dungeon-crawler from 1995, since we're kind of short on those games lately, hence we backed BT4 and are helping revive the dungeon-crawl.
So I need to make that core group happy. I'm going to give them their characters, their spells, give them a lot of the locations.
Well, that will certainly make me happy. Don't forget about monsters though, I can't wait to meet all those fully animated slathbeasts, nefasts, malefic knights, black slayers, etc, in 1080p full HD. Yeah I know, I'm so 2010.
We need to build out the world and make it deeper, give them all the stuff they enjoy, but also make it so that somebody's who's not heard of it can watch somebody play it on Twitch and go, 'That looks like a lot of fun. I don't know what The Bard's Tale is, but that looks good.
Image

I'm glad your "consultant" is working out great: Kickstarter is so dead. He's telling you... You need to get into the Twitch / Youtube business, besides VR of course and fuck all those so yesteryear Kickstarter backers, who want an old game. All it needs is to look good to casual twitchers and youtubers and not some shitty old game, that gets boring after 2 minutes for the average viewer. Also throw some free BT2004s and Mages Tales in the streamers' way and they'll praise the game for a while, at least until it comes out on consoles.
This is part of the reason Fargo feels prepared to return to franchises like The Bard's Tale and Wasteland now. Since making those games, he's learned a lot more about user interface, visual payoff, the speed at which games need to proceed to avoid feeling sluggish.
That's good to hear, since in the "alpha" demo, killing 5 trash mobs took the average streamer more than 5 minutes, as opposed to 20 seconds in classic BT and WL. Hopefully the grid-based movement will be also on par with the classics, where if we wanted, we could move 5-10 steps per second depending on how fast we pressed the keys. That "evil" Michael Cranford had even put a trap in BT2, where if you didn't press quick enough you would be dead.
For Bard's Tale IV, when players load a game they get a scene informing them of what they've accomplished and foreshadowing what's yet to come. It's unlikely to disrupt game design as we know it, but Fargo said he's hoping to implement what is a basic storytelling technique of books and films into games in an interesting way.
Excuse me, but what? I don't mind knowing "what I have accomplished" such as monsters slain, damage done, gold looted, steps / time taken, etc, but I don't get how the storytelling of books and films are relevant here.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Serjo » May 3rd, 2018, 2:43 pm

ZiN wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 2:26 pm
For Bard's Tale IV, when players load a game they get a scene informing them of what they've accomplished and foreshadowing what's yet to come. It's unlikely to disrupt game design as we know it, but Fargo said he's hoping to implement what is a basic storytelling technique of books and films into games in an interesting way.
Excuse me, but what? I don't mind knowing "what I have accomplished" such as monsters slain, damage done, gold looted, steps / time taken, etc, but I don't get how the storytelling of books and films are relevant here.
I read "scene" as "cutscene", as in, you see some NPCs sitting in a bar saying "Did you hear how the Bard's Group killed the titan of the moon forest? Now the raven of the bloody crags has sworn vengeance on them!", and then that's the boss of the next dungeon.

It sounds quite a bit like Witcher 3's loading screens, actually.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by Gizmo » May 3rd, 2018, 3:11 pm

demeisen wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 1:45 pm
I've seen several people claim that, but I still highly doubt we paid for it.
They got paid more than they asked for. :?
The numbers just don't add up, for a US-developed game. They got around $1.5m from KS, which when you consider how much overhead there is per capita (studio space, benefits, FICA, etc), might be around 7 man-years, and that doesn't even talk about licensing external assets, the UE4 cut, GOG and Steam cuts, paying musicians, voice actors, admin staff, post-release support people, post-release updates, and so on. It's a ~ 3.5 year development, so I think it can only be heavily in the red unless they get significant non-backer post release sales.
...And so... why would they need most of that for a Bard's Tale sequel? The bar is not set so high as for making The Witcher 4... It's Bard's Tale—or at least it is supposed to be.

They could have made it on Unity3D with the minimum spec for the engine; (they could have made it in Flash!)... No voices; no distribution services—deliver it to the people who paid them to make it... never bother to sell another copy... unless asked for it by the potential customer—no advertising. Consider it a job well done, and move on to the next game.
That means also catering to people who don't frequent this forum and who may never have played the classics. We can't assume that all those 34K KS backers want what the most vocal few do either.
If I backed a Gaelic interactive fiction novel—and could not read Gaelic... That's on me, not the developers. If someone backed a Magic The Gathering clone, and doesn't like card games... that's on them... why should the developer alter the game to cater to people that don't like card games? (...And why should those looking forward to a new MTG style card game have their game injected with bits to make it more palatable players that do not appreciate card games?)

This is like catering Sushi to people that won't eat anything raw... and serving it cooked, including to those expecting to get Sushi.

Fargo is probably not wrong: pure BT-original-style would flop badly in 2018, relative to the levels even a modest sized studio needs to sell at to remain in business.
Why should this matter? They asked for a sum, and were paid it... Imagine if a studio were commissioned to make a promotional game for a convention—intended for the convention's attendees; quite a niche group. Paid in full... and delivered on time to a satisfied customer. What's wrong with that?

Now... What's obviously wrong about designing it (instead) with a greater marketability in mind? Think about that. Think about the client getting a game with Steam integration, and support for in-game ads, and DLC, and an ESRB rating that forced the developer to tone down the original content just a bit. That's not what they asked for, wanted to pay for, or in any way shape or form—needed to have in a game intended to be passed out to their convention attendees.

My point is simply that there need not have been any future plans for it if they received the full amount that they requested in order to deliver the product. Done deal.

The problem comes of offering to build a thing —not to build it, but to get infrastructure needed to build it—and have that afterwards.
They didn't need a UE4 shop for a Bard's Tale sequel, but by having BT4 need an UE4 shop to make it... they end up with one.
I have nothing against using Unreal, but it's no justification for greater expense—when it wasn't really needed for the project; and this goes for several other of the aspects mentioned as well.
______
**(Completely as an aside) Petri (Of Almost Human Ltd) wrote his own engine for Legend of Grimrock; and it was tailored to the needs of the game. A small team could have made a grand Bard's Tale sequel as just a conversion/reskin of Grimrock 2.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by ZiN » May 3rd, 2018, 4:11 pm

Serjo wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 2:43 pm
ZiN wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 2:26 pm
For Bard's Tale IV, when players load a game they get a scene informing them of what they've accomplished and foreshadowing what's yet to come. It's unlikely to disrupt game design as we know it, but Fargo said he's hoping to implement what is a basic storytelling technique of books and films into games in an interesting way.
Excuse me, but what? I don't mind knowing "what I have accomplished" such as monsters slain, damage done, gold looted, steps / time taken, etc, but I don't get how the storytelling of books and films are relevant here.
I read "scene" as "cutscene", as in, you see some NPCs sitting in a bar saying "Did you hear how the Bard's Group killed the titan of the moon forest? Now the raven of the bloody crags has sworn vengeance on them!", and then that's the boss of the next dungeon.

It sounds quite a bit like Witcher 3's loading screens, actually.
Ah, is that so?
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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by demeisen » May 3rd, 2018, 4:37 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 3:11 pm
demeisen wrote:
May 3rd, 2018, 1:45 pm
I've seen several people claim that, but I still highly doubt we paid for it.
They got paid more than they asked for. :?
Yes... obviously we're not privy to their financials, but I'd be surprised if it was enough to solely fund a game of the type they teased. I'd more suspect they asked for the minimum they needed to get development rolling for a year or whatever, and planned on profit from post-release sales to recoup the entire development cycle costs. I could be wrong of course: I'm just back-of-envelope guessing based on what it costs to fund developers over years (not garage-based low budget ones, but paying industry competitive wages for people sitting in real offices).
They could have made it on Unity3D with the minimum spec for the engine; (they could have made it in Flash!)...
Sure, but going as far as Flash is arguing that they should have made a very different game than they promised. It was clear from the teaser video that they were aiming for rich 3D environments, in-environment animated creatures, graphical spell effects some of which interact with that 3D environment, etc. If they showed all those things, and then rolled back to a much simpler Flash game, I doubt that would go over well with the people who backed it because of what they saw in the teaser. And if they showed a simpler Flash style game in the teaser video, I'd be surprise if they got even 1/10th as much funding. We can't assume they could show that, and retain the $1.5m funding level.

Don't get me wrong, I probably overlap quite a lot with you, and I'd have backed a game more like "DW done well", if they had teased that instead. We're only a few though, and probably vastly outnumbered even among KS backers who saw a nice looking UE4 teaser and backed because of that. A studio of what, dozens(?) of people is going to want a larger scoped project with larger sales potential, rather than lots of relatively minor low-sales projects. (Unless they can effectively print money, Valve-style, in which case they get to do whatever they feel like, but I doubt InXile has that luxury).
**(Completely as an aside) Petri (Of Almost Human Ltd) wrote his own engine for Legend of Grimrock; and it was tailored to the needs of the game. A small team could have made a grand Bard's Tale sequel as just a conversion/reskin of Grimrock 2.
Interesting idea!

I know there are Grimrock mods out there, but I don't know if any have taken it that far (e.g, changing the real time combat to turn based). That'd be cool, though. If someone did something like that, I'd play it.

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Re: Bard's Tale IV External News Thread

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » May 3rd, 2018, 5:10 pm

That means also catering to people who don't frequent this forum and who may never have played the classics. We can't assume that all those 34K KS backers want what the most vocal few do either.
You also can't assume that most of them don't want what some of the more vocal of us want. Unless you have hard numbers to back up these claims that we are somehow in a minority, numbers I've never seen you present.

Why aren't there more people here vocally advocating for Fargo & co.'s direction, if they think it is right and want to see it through? Why are most of the posts in this forum from those of us who are strongly opposed to the direction we've seen? Are you going to claim a generation gap or something and that people who support Fargo's efforts have found some other feedback mechanism? Where is that mechanism and what are they saying? The KS comments? More than a few have been by people pining for the remasters.

What if it turned out that a significant fraction of people who backed this KS did so because of the remasters? (I don't know if that's true, but we've had a decent sample size from people dropping into these forums to make one or two posts the past few years.)
(b) Fargo is probably not wrong: pure BT-original-style would flop badly in 2018, relative to the levels even a modest sized studio needs to sell at to remain in business.
Probably is a weasel word. And I have no idea what is meant by "pure BT-original-style"....
based blobber (TBB?) sub-genre entirely. There's a 15-years-old dead-end Devil's Whiskey that saw poor-ish reviews blasting it as excessively repetitive, crash-prone, and cumbersome.
And the Devil Whiskey has what to do with BT4, exactly? The ultimate failure of one product does not imply the failure of another.
cmibl<enter>

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