The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

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Gizmo
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » March 4th, 2018, 12:50 pm

Serjo wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 4:35 am
They want to make the characters expressive, more emotive, and more alive without using expensive 3D art, hence the bouncing and twirling.
If it's fixed perspective, the 3D art might be cheaper. Possibly they can use pre-calculated normal mapped models (as of course they already do for the monsters) —but for the PC avatarss... like flat (or nearly flat) paper-doll models, of a few (dozen?) triangles each, and still animate them; and not have to have a large collection of 2D animation frames.... it could look like really great 2D art.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by thebruce » March 5th, 2018, 6:47 am

Zombra wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 12:11 pm
I would far prefer more minimal, humanistic movements that make me think of the characters as people. The blinking eyes and moving mouths are wonderful. Maybe the artists could do little frames of a character turning their head slightly or a lock of hair rustling.
ie, what the classics did :)
(well, for the passive animations; nothing for speaking animations)
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Grotesque » March 5th, 2018, 10:49 am

Keep the characters facing the enemies, make them 15% bigger and for God's sake, bring some animation to them.
That wiggling portraits is like the game is mocking the player via a kindergarten level puppet show.

Too bad you ran out of money for 3D models and animation. I guess the fiasco that Numenera proved to be and the money devourer it was taught you a hard lesson.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by ZiN » March 6th, 2018, 11:44 am

thebruce wrote:
March 5th, 2018, 6:47 am
Zombra wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 12:11 pm
I would far prefer more minimal, humanistic movements that make me think of the characters as people. The blinking eyes and moving mouths are wonderful. Maybe the artists could do little frames of a character turning their head slightly or a lock of hair rustling.
ie, what the classics did :)
(well, for the passive animations; nothing for speaking animations)
Indeed, I would also prefer proper old-school ones. Let's mention different expressions for statuses, such as drunk, poisoned, or asleep.

By the way, here are some good examples of old-school animated portraits, from 1992-93:

ImageImageImage

Zombra wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 12:11 pm
What we have here turns them into puppets: the animators are sticking their hands up the butts of the PCs and waving their whole bodies around. Since no one moves like that, it's the opposite of emotive; if anything, it's dehumanizing.
Perhaps they think that's funny, just as they thought BT2004 was funny. Eh, having bad portraits is a disgrace to Bard's Tale, as portraits were one of the most memorable things about it.
Alas, InXile couldn't ever make good portraits, not even static ones, never mind animated ones. So, despite all the feedback, I don't expect anything good.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by waltc » March 12th, 2018, 9:39 am

Serjo wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 3:47 pm
I think the characters also look too short compared to human-sized enemies:

Image

The top of the bard's head seems to be about level with the enemy's chest. The models should be sitting higher up, but then they might obscure enemies in the front row.

(which they kinda should if the aim is to create a sense of proper perspective...)
Yes, hopefully this is merely placeholder stuff...;) The aspects are being mixed and it all comes together to confuse the eye. The game itself is clearly 1st-person--not unlike the M&M6-8 series, among many, for instance. Yet the character portraits are facing away from the player with only their backs visible as though the the game is 3rd-person--but it isn't, of course. Adding to the eye confusion is the angle of the camera viewpoint on the character icons, as you've mentioned, which appears to be looking down at an angle--whereas the scene itself appears to be straight-on, eye-level first person. Better to use static character icons--or possibly even none, than to leave it this way. Last, having characters "turn around" and face the player is about as immersion-breaking as it gets, so surely that will go in the final version. The above just doesn't work well visually for people over the age of five, imo.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Drool » March 12th, 2018, 3:48 pm

waltc wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 9:39 am
Yes, hopefully this is merely placeholder stuff...
Hopefully, but it's getting pretty deep into production for that sort of thing...
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » March 12th, 2018, 5:05 pm

waltc wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 9:39 am
Yes, hopefully this is merely placeholder stuff...;) The aspects are being mixed and it all comes together to confuse the eye. The game itself is clearly 1st-person--not unlike the M&M6-8 series, among many, for instance. Yet the character portraits are facing away from the player with only their backs visible as though the the game is 3rd-person--but it isn't, of course. Adding to the eye confusion is the angle of the camera viewpoint on the character icons, as you've mentioned, which appears to be looking down at an angle--whereas the scene itself appears to be straight-on, eye-level first person.
Almost as though it were VR game, where you could reach out and rearrange the pieces. :D

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Serjo » March 13th, 2018, 8:25 am

They must've been asked about that one many times, since there's a Zendesk article about it:
Will The Bard's Tale IV support VR?
inXile Entertainment
December 11, 2017 22:29 Updated

Currently we don't have plans for VR support in The Bard's Tale IV. However, for a VR game set in the Bard's Tale universe, you can check out The Mage's Tale!

https://inxile.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/art ... upport-VR-

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » March 13th, 2018, 8:49 am

Serjo wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 8:25 am
...
...But who knows what it was like on the drawing board? ;)

(For all we know, Mage Tale could have come from a fork/or salvaged work; mechanics cut from an early BT4.)

*Meaning the noted UI aspect might perhaps be vestigial.

I notice in the exploration videos, that the eye-level of the player, seems a bit low—too low IMO; almost hip level.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by waltc » March 31st, 2018, 7:52 am

Drool wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 3:48 pm
waltc wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 9:39 am
Yes, hopefully this is merely placeholder stuff...
Hopefully, but it's getting pretty deep into production for that sort of thing...
Agreed...doesn't make much sense to create a thoroughly believable game engine and environment and then to lay cartoon characters on top of it --even if there are a couple of hud options to remove them--you always know they are still there. The turning around to look at the player thing is astounding, really. Can you imagine a movie you are really into, where your suspension of disbelief is running high, and suddenly the characters look at you in the audience and maybe even *speak*, asking you what to do next?...;) It would destroy the entire movie, immersion shattered. The camera is an unobtrusive witness whose presence should ideally never be noted by the viewer, and so it is with scenes in a computer game, too. But these are things that ought to be well known to the BTIV game designers.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by waltc » March 31st, 2018, 7:53 am

Gizmo wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 5:05 pm
Almost as though it were VR game, where you could reach out and rearrange the pieces. :D

Image
Precisely... :lol:

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Jademonk » April 14th, 2018, 9:38 pm

thebruce wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 7:11 pm
the PC's have to be able to move in combat.
Do they?
I consider that entirely pretty graphics. They don't need to, but some devs really want them to. That's why I fully support the option to turn off combat animations in a 'classic mode', or have them skippable. They take up time. The trilogy had the ability to speed up the scroll text if you didn't want to wait and read it all because it'd be quite repetitive. Provide something similar here.

I still want to see a classic mode that provides animated portraits like the classics, and that's it. No need for more [in that mode]. Everything else is fluff :P
I completely agree with this. Bring on the classic mode!

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Jademonk » April 14th, 2018, 9:57 pm

ZiN wrote:
March 6th, 2018, 11:44 am
thebruce wrote:
March 5th, 2018, 6:47 am
Zombra wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 12:11 pm
I would far prefer more minimal, humanistic movements that make me think of the characters as people. The blinking eyes and moving mouths are wonderful. Maybe the artists could do little frames of a character turning their head slightly or a lock of hair rustling.
ie, what the classics did :)
(well, for the passive animations; nothing for speaking animations)
Indeed, I would also prefer proper old-school ones. Let's mention different expressions for statuses, such as drunk, poisoned, or asleep.

By the way, here are some good examples of old-school animated portraits, from 1992-93:

ImageImageImage

Zombra wrote:
March 4th, 2018, 12:11 pm
What we have here turns them into puppets: the animators are sticking their hands up the butts of the PCs and waving their whole bodies around. Since no one moves like that, it's the opposite of emotive; if anything, it's dehumanizing.
Perhaps they think that's funny, just as they thought BT2004 was funny. Eh, having bad portraits is a disgrace to Bard's Tale, as portraits were one of the most memorable things about it.
Alas, InXile couldn't ever make good portraits, not even static ones, never mind animated ones. So, despite all the feedback, I don't expect anything good.
I also agree with this. Those old school portraits are a much better way to go than what I’m seeing so far.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » April 15th, 2018, 7:08 pm

ZiN wrote:
March 6th, 2018, 11:44 am
Eh, having bad portraits is a disgrace to Bard's Tale, as portraits were one of the most memorable things about it.
Agreed; and of Fallout too... But Bethesda didn't do squat on that front. They could have used the entire polygon budget... and done something like this in conversation...
Image
... but all they did was use their regular gameplay models.


For Wasteland 2, 3, (and even BT4), I'd have liked to see something par with this (on the bottom); though not photographic... as this is.
Image

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