The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Zombra » February 17th, 2018, 10:01 pm

thebruce wrote:
February 17th, 2018, 9:50 pm
Agreed. On the note the 'card' visual I presenting, I was going from the content of the trilogies - character portrait cards only visible when viewing character details - to having the character 'card' visible in the UI (as opposed to number/name/stats per the trilogy) rather than bouncy cut-out portraits that keep flipping between front and back. I would rather live with (what some people seem to think is weird) having them "look like" they're walking backwards and facing me. If it's cards, not 3d models or cut-out portraits, that doesn't seem weird to me. Just my 2p. :)
Yeah, I would be fine with the party just facing me all the time like in Wizardry or Might and Magic. This attempt to make me feel "really there" isn't cutting it. So my party is all facing the enemies, except when one of them wants to do something, they turn around and face away from them, and then wiggle and wobble and something happens? What?

The "back of head" art is nicely drawn and I applaud the artists, but the decision to have me looking at backs of heads in the first place doesn't make sense. The fronts of the characters are even nicer to look at.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » February 17th, 2018, 10:09 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 17th, 2018, 9:39 pm
... Please, whoever made that decision, rethink it. Thanks.
Considering the hardware restrictions the original game had, the portrait art is outstanding IMO. While no one expects the exact style to return, I would sure appreciate for the new artwork to reflect the same relative level of linear quality in a direct numbered sequel.

Consider Mario as a base example:
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**If they actually are planned to be 2D images... then I'd want them to be par with the WL2 concept Portraits.. Or at least Baldur's Gate 2.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by thebruce » February 17th, 2018, 10:12 pm

I think part of it stems from the fact that they want to illustrate the combat between characters and enemies. Honestly, I would the option to turn that off and have my characters remain in position as place holders. I keep saying, pretty graphics are nice, but I'd like to be able to turn off 'extra' stuff so they don't slow up the experience. I wouldn't mind a toggle if they really want to have characters "turn around" at times (so I can turn that off). Maybe this harkens back to a 'classic mode' toggle: consider party UI representation as one of the 'classic mode' features, like grid-locked movement.
No combat animations or dialogue bobbles, just quick, simple gameplay and character portraits in their assigned party slot for exploration and combat.
I would love that feature.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » February 17th, 2018, 11:07 pm

There is a slim line between Optional, and Crippling. I know what you mean about a minimalist HUD, but at some point disabling options gets to be like watching the radio with the sound off... It's just not the intended experience.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Zombra » February 18th, 2018, 12:33 am

Gizmo wrote:
February 17th, 2018, 10:09 pm
Considering the hardware restrictions the original game had, the portrait art is outstanding IMO.
Don't misquote me. I love the character art! It's the dippy animations I dislike.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Crosmando » February 18th, 2018, 2:38 am

Looks fine to me, I hope they don't all hung up on the portraits that they continually redo them, that's wasteful. It was ridiculous how many UI's Wasteland 2 went through until they finally settled on one.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Bladesinger » February 18th, 2018, 3:16 am

To be honest. I like Bobbleheads. Just NOT in a classic game like Bards Tale. It sort of cheapens the feel a bit. I have no suggestions as to how they should fix the Bobbleheads except to SELL Bards Tale Memorabelia in an Online shop. I would pay shipping and Handling for Bards tale loot crates containing A Bard Sword that plays the Original Bards tale tunez!!! :D

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » February 18th, 2018, 5:27 am

Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 12:33 am
Don't misquote me. I love the character art! It's the dippy animations I dislike.
Did I?

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Zombra » February 18th, 2018, 11:13 am

Gizmo wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 5:27 am
Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 12:33 am
Don't misquote me. I love the character art! It's the dippy animations I dislike.
Did I?
Yes. When you deny the right of citizens to fundraise to buy red dye for blue cats, it causes problems for cats everywhere. Plus it doesn't matter if the quote is "exact" when you completely change the context. I don't know how you can be so indifferent to the plight of blue cats.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 18th, 2018, 12:28 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 11:13 am
Yes. When you deny the right of citizens to fundraise to buy red dye for blue cats, it causes problems for cats everywhere. Plus it doesn't matter if the quote is "exact" when you completely change the context. I don't know how you can be so indifferent to the plight of blue cats.
Amen, Zombra. Blue cats definitely should have to go back to the AG every time they run out of milk, and pay for it with exact change in copper and silver coins rather than abstract "gold pieces". Allowing them to take milk with them does not sufficiently challenge the player and causes the game not to be experienced in the way the devs intended.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » February 18th, 2018, 12:50 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 11:13 am
Plus it doesn't matter if the quote is "exact" when you completely change the context.
AFAIK, there was no context at all. I simply stated that I was impressed. :?

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Zombra » February 18th, 2018, 12:51 pm

ANYway :)

Looking closer at the text, it's interesting to see the huge differences even in the two Bard types featured in the update. The Brew Master almost seems like a burst DPS class instead of support, whereas the Rabble Rouser has the versatile party-wide effects we're used to. The descriptions of the different Practitioner types make them sound super different too. If all the Archetype subclasses are this distinctive, we're going to have a ridiculous amount of possible combinations and meaningful decisions to make when party building - perhaps worthy of the original series!
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Gizmo » February 18th, 2018, 1:01 pm

Are they different sub-classes, or just variations on skills & stats. There are a few (D&D) cRPGs where the choice is just an auto-skill pick for the selected class, rather than different classes.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Zombra » February 18th, 2018, 1:11 pm

Gizmo wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 1:01 pm
Are they different sub-classes, or just variations on skills & stats. There are a few (D&D) cRPGs where the choice is just an auto-skill pick for the selected class, rather than different classes.
The Character Progression update from, jeez, July 2016, goes into detail about this. It's ye olde skill tree system, where an Archetype can specialize in one subclass or pick 'n' mix abilities from several.

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Hmmm, looking at this example, this Fighter has maxed out several branches and could arguably be said to have mastered three subclasses! If we have a glut of skill points, one Bard may not turn out to be very different from any other by the end of the game. Maybe my observation about meaningful choices was optimistic.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Drool » February 18th, 2018, 1:44 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 12:51 pm
The descriptions of the different Practitioner types make them sound super different too.
I dunno.
the spell-slinging AOE-focused Conjurer, the crowd-controlling Magician, the enemy-disrupting Sorcerer, and the monster-summoning Wizard
Okay, the Wizard is pretty much the same as the original trilogy (at least in description). The Sorcerer sounds... close? But Sorcerers were more mind games and illusions, but I could see that being similar to the minimal description here.

But... what's the difference between "AOE-focused" and "crowd-controlling"? And, if we want to be picky, what's the difference between "crowd-controlling" and "enemy-disrupting"?
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Zombra » February 18th, 2018, 2:09 pm

Drool wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 1:44 pm
But... what's the difference between "AOE-focused" and "crowd-controlling"? And, if we want to be picky, what's the difference between "crowd-controlling" and "enemy-disrupting"?
You obviously haven't teamed in a lot of MMOs. AOE means group damage e.g. a fireball. Crowd control means temporarily shutting down incoming crowd attacks e.g. a sleep spell. (Doesn't work well with fireballs because that wakes them back up.) Enemy disruption usually means single-target debuffs, such as a silence spell on an important enemy spellcaster. These all have very different implications.
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Drool » February 18th, 2018, 2:15 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 2:09 pm
You obviously haven't teamed in a lot of MMOs.
Ironically, Elder Scrolls Online has been my current obsession. But I haven't gotten into team stuff yet.
AOE means group damage e.g. a fireball. Crowd control means temporarily shutting down incoming crowd attacks e.g. a sleep spell. (Doesn't work well with fireballs because that wakes them back up.) Enemy disruption usually means single-target debuffs, such as a silence spell on an important enemy spellcaster.
Okay, I can buy this. My mind really should have gone to MMOs, what with all their going on and on about cooldowns.

That said, taking the MMO angle, the Conjurer being a burst caster makes enough sense as that's sort of how they were described in 1-3. Likewise, the Sorcerer being disruption also mostly works. That's a lot of what they did, just with psychic/illusionary seasoning. Magician, on the other hand, being CC doesn't jive well. Magicians would probably be more buffing support: "Magicians deal with magic as it affects physical objects (i.e., enchanting a sword, making armor stronger, making a dungeon wall disappear)."
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Lucius » February 19th, 2018, 7:18 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 17th, 2018, 9:39 pm
Well ... the "wiggling portraits" are more smooth and robust in this update. They've obviously been polishing the process. (It's really not helping me like it.)

On a hunch, I watched some Hearthstone gameplay for the first time just now. Pretty sure this was their inspiration. Instead of cutesy Hearthstone cards flying around a table, it'll be player character portraits flitting and flying around a battle grid. I can already hear the adorable boops and boings.

I think someone on a high level made an executive decision that this game has to not only have intricate gameplay like Hearthstone (which still sounds interesting), the animations have to look silly and childish like it too, and the poor artists are doing their best to make it look good. Please, whoever made that decision, rethink it. Thanks.
Yes and I almost commented on Hearthstone in my earlier post. That's exactly where it's coming from, considering the mention of Hearthstone in the KS campaign. Thing is, in Hearthstone we are dealing with playing cards. In Bard's Tale, they are portraits, kind of superimposed on the UI. For me, it doesn't work as portraits. They could turn the portraits into Tarot cards, which could work, sort of, but that really wouldn't make much sense in the way the game is presented. The only way for that work, is to present the game as something like a P&P game, with a GameMaster narrating it. Kind of take this concept of playing with Portrait Cards (like tarot cards) and a gamemaster and a stat sheet etc and then go into the GM's imagination (the 3d gameworld) and have this visual, interactive P&P game. The game would have to be set up from the onset that it's just a (virtual) game you're playing, not like a typical RPG where the game is presented as reality.
Zombra wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 1:11 pm
Hmmm, looking at this example, this Fighter has maxed out several branches and could arguably be said to have mastered three subclasses! If we have a glut of skill points, one Bard may not turn out to be very different from any other by the end of the game. Maybe my observation about meaningful choices was optimistic.
Depending on how much skill points we have to play with, this system generally works out such as you have your subclass. You then have certain key skills or sub class lines that are must haves for the class in general. So no matter which tree you go into as your main, your pick in your off trees will all be the same, or very similar. So imagine, every bard is going to want to get skills X, Y, and Z, if you have the points to reach Z with your build, and all your main skills for your subclass. These types of trees almost always end up with "must have skills", no matter where your main focus is. This, of course, is speaking of optimal playstyles, not so much roleplaying.

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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Themadcow » February 20th, 2018, 1:57 am

Personally I'm not bothered about bobble-heads or not, back of heads or front. My preference is for static images, facing towards me - but as long as the combat is fast or slow as I need it to be then I don't really care.

I feel that skill trees should certainly have a reasonable level of restriction, even if BT's spellcasters have a historic precedent for full-tree mastery. Nothing too heavy though - maybe just ensure that the top two skills of any tree are in some way "special" to your choices. It's fairly realistic that a soldier (for a real life example) might be a good hand to hand fighter, assault, tactics or sniping - but realistically only a master at one of them. A solder that only learned hand to hand combat isn't a good soldier.

Generally I'm very encouraged by what I've seen, and really enjoyed the graphical style of the Mage's Tale on Oculus recently - although I'm hoping that a few lessons can be learned from that game in relation to what isn't enjoyable in terms of mechanics. BRING ON THE BETA!
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Re: The Bard's Tale IV Update 41: Hard Drinking, Rabble Rousing Bards

Post by Woolfe » February 20th, 2018, 6:33 am

It'd be interesting if skill trees are going to be capable of filling out multiple Subbranches, then have the order that they occur in be important.

So learning one type of magic first gives a slight advantage in that type of magic forever.

As to the portrait wiggling.

Yeah I am NOT a fan. Its really distracting and dumb. And also don't like the back of the head thing in combat. Abstract it, cause the whole premise is fucking inane, both in concept and in action.
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