Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

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Grohal
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Grohal » December 7th, 2017, 4:32 am

MParmeter wrote:
December 5th, 2017, 8:58 pm
I have some serious concerns about the amount of time needed for mastering all of this. It strikes me as way too complicated to be any fun for someone that has maybe 30 minutes in a day to play. You're asking a lot of someone who is already busy.

...
I have some bad news for you: someone who has "maybe 30 minutes in a day to play" should either change the genre or only play in their holidays. RPGs take time, that is why (most) people that do so love them. To dive into a foreign fantasy, post-apocalyptic or whatever else world is not something you do between shower and breakfast.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Zombra » December 7th, 2017, 5:16 am

Thank you Lix :)
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by thebruce » December 7th, 2017, 6:32 am

Grohal wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 4:32 am
MParmeter wrote:
December 5th, 2017, 8:58 pm
I have some serious concerns about the amount of time needed for mastering all of this. It strikes me as way too complicated to be any fun for someone that has maybe 30 minutes in a day to play. You're asking a lot of someone who is already busy.
...
I have some bad news for you: someone who has "maybe 30 minutes in a day to play" should either change the genre or only play in their holidays. RPGs take time, that is why (most) people that do so love them. To dive into a foreign fantasy, post-apocalyptic or whatever else world is not something you do between shower and breakfast.
To devil's advocate a bit - the nature of BT1-3 allowed, at worst, a dungeon level's play time. Where you can save progressively, you were able to inch along, if you so desired, in the gameplay.

That said...
MParmeter wrote:How do you plan on getting these items into people's hands that don't have the time to search through every nook and shadow? How are you going to remind those that do luck into them how they work and what the requirements are once they are found?
I didn't gather that you can't get these items if you played in 30 minutes sessions, or necessarily that game progress required finding these items. Maybe they will, but at this point they seem more like non-linear game items, not plot-locking tasks. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a handful of items that say, need to be 'upgraded' in order to unlock a step in the plotline, but my impression is these are all 'optional' items you can use, improve, change up, find, buy/sell, as desired. So play for them as you wish :)
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Grohal » December 7th, 2017, 7:12 am

thebruce wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 6:32 am
Grohal wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 4:32 am

I have some bad news for you: someone who has "maybe 30 minutes in a day to play" should either change the genre or only play in their holidays. RPGs take time, that is why (most) people that do so love them. To dive into a foreign fantasy, post-apocalyptic or whatever else world is not something you do between shower and breakfast.
To devil's advocate a bit - the nature of BT1-3 allowed, at worst, a dungeon level's play time. Where you can save progressively, you were able to inch along, if you so desired, in the gameplay.

...
Really? It has been a long time, but as far as I can remember you could only save at the guild... well maybe I remember that wrong.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by thebruce » December 7th, 2017, 7:31 am

Grohal wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 7:12 am
Really? It has been a long time, but as far as I can remember you could only save at the guild... well maybe I remember that wrong.
In BT1, yes. By dungeon-level's play length I didn't bother to include the time taken from the level entrance to the Guild, I just assumed that was assumed :P In the others, save at will.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Gizmo » December 7th, 2017, 8:15 am

thebruce wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 7:31 am
In BT1, yes. By dungeon-level's play length I didn't bother to include the time taken from the level entrance to the Guild, I just assumed that was assumed :P In the others, save at will.
It was a real disappointment to me when I learned that one could save their game anywhere in BT2; before then you can only save in the guild. It was important that you had to make it back alive—in order own that progress; even if you had to crawl back in the dark. It was a real let down, and felt like they did damage to the game. It was the same feeling one might have after learning that a sports hero had cheated or took a dive.

I was glad that I'd completed BT2 before I found out. I haven't played BT3, though I have it installed; I got it when I bought the original series bundled on CD, and the installer installs all three at once.

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by demeisen » December 7th, 2017, 8:28 am

Gizmo wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
It was important that you had to make it back alive—in order own that progress; even if you had to crawl back in the dark. It was a real let down, and felt like they did damage to the game. It was the same feeling one might have after learning that a sports hero cheated or took a dive.
Yeah - I agree: I don't think this trend towards save-spam in every last game has been for the better. Being able to save only in a few safe areas like inns/guilds made the game world feel dangerous, in a way that it just doesn't if you can mash on the F5 button every few steps. The sense of having to mind yourself and take the world seriously goes away. (I feel similar about instant health and spell regeneration after each fight, another negative trend in modern CRPG design).

Of course, the argument goes that you don't have to do that, which I suppose is true, so I also agree there are bigger hills to die on. Still, I'm hoping BT4 will provide some sort of new-game option to allow a "save only in inns" mode.

Maybe even have it be the default, if you wanna oldschool it up :twisted:

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by thebruce » December 7th, 2017, 8:31 am

And we come back to the suggestion of an elite game mode that restricts saving to original style, Guild-only (or yeah Inns). If they have that option in BT4, I'm sure some people would put it to use (though I'd wager the vast majority of players would favour save-anywhere)
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Gizmo » December 7th, 2017, 8:58 am

demeisen wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 8:28 am
Being able to save only in a few safe areas like inns/guilds made the game world feel dangerous, in a way that it just doesn't if you can mash on the F5 button every few steps. The sense of having to mind yourself and take the world seriously goes away.
That's precisely the issue, and point of discontent.

I played Grimrock 2 for the very first time in one hour stints (on Ironman and Single Save modes); I'd come back to it the next night—unless I had enough time to play another (full) hour. Very intense game when played like that. LoG2 Ironman does not delete the game on party death, but it restricts saving the game to only by using active healing crystals; single-use crystal mode—does just that; they only work one time. To save the game, you have to find another crystal.
thebruce wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 8:31 am
And we come back to the suggestion of an elite game mode that restricts saving to original style, Guild-only (or yeah Inns). If they have that option in BT4, I'm sure some people would put it to use (though I'd wager the vast majority of players would favour save-anywhere)
I'm not partial to an elite mode being the optional choice. I'd rather the game (any game) play that mode as the default; with an easy mode that pares it back**. I felt the same way about Fallout:New Vegas, with its 'Wild Wasteland' mode—that cost the PC a trait/perk in order to activate—rather than it being the way of the world by default; as it was in Fallout & Fallout 2.

**This is separate from a difficulty mode; I don't mean that Quake should default to Nightmare.
Last edited by Gizmo on December 7th, 2017, 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by thebruce » December 7th, 2017, 9:02 am

Gizmo wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 8:58 am
I'm not partial to an elite mode being the optional choice. I'd rather the game (any game) play that mode as the default; with an easy mode that pares it back
I'm not partial as to whether it's default or not, just that it's there.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Gizmo » December 7th, 2017, 9:25 am

thebruce wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 9:02 am
I'm not partial as to whether it's default or not, just that it's there.
"The Tyranny of the Default"

**It goes both ways, of course (wishing a different default)... but I suppose it should depend on the developer's vision of their game... Should its first (possibly permanent) impression be the full experience, or a pared back version.

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by thebruce » December 7th, 2017, 10:31 am

There's a thread somewhere way back there discussing the save mechanic... Let's get this one back on the Update 39 subject
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Zombra » December 7th, 2017, 10:42 am

I believe this thread may be what you refer to. It's ostensibly about save scumming in Wasteland 3, but its philosophy can apply to gaming in general.

Since update 39 specifically mentions save-scumming, I think it's on topic. I'm not going to get into an argument about this here, but I will say once that it's good to see so many posters who object to an unlimited quicksave system. Limitations can make games better, and removing them can make games worse. I would also love to at least see a mode where you can only make permanent saves at the guild, and you can have a temporary save on exiting the game (which is erased when you load it), or a "save crystal" system, or something like this. Please think about it inXile. OK, I'm done.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Gizmo » December 7th, 2017, 11:51 am

Zombra wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 10:42 am
I would also love to at least see a mode where you can only make permanent saves at the guild, and you can have a temporary save on exiting the game (which is erased when you load it), or a "save crystal" system, or something like this. Please think about it inXile. OK, I'm done.
Many games now offer a 'continue' option—which is somewhat close to how Bard's Tale simply began and ended in the same spot—though with BT it wasn't optional. BT4 could conceivably offer a Continue option in the main menu, and simply gray out the save option under certain settings. Quitting would save the game; but that too might be best if it were an option... The player might not want to save their session.

*It could ask to save on exit, or it could just be the default. :D

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Lix » December 7th, 2017, 1:57 pm

I'd be fine with the Dark Souls solution, which is a single save slot that autosaves after almost every player action. Would neatly remove any danger of save scumming, and is obviously not unpopular with larger audiences.

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Gizmo » December 7th, 2017, 4:23 pm

Lix wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 1:57 pm
I'd be fine with the Dark Souls solution, which is a single save slot that autosaves after almost every player action. Would neatly remove any danger of save scumming, and is obviously not unpopular with larger audiences.
That's a hassle if there is any kind of file corruption; be it the game's internal error, the OS, or errors in the storage media. Auto-saving corrupted data over the only save game file is no fun at all.

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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » December 7th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Zombra wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 10:42 am
I believe this thread may be what you refer to. It's ostensibly about save scumming in Wasteland 3, but its philosophy can apply to gaming in general.
Or maybe the The Great Save Game Debate here in the BT fora. You know, the one that went on for like 36 pages and had repeats of the same debates over and over because no one wanted to read what anyone had previously written. ;) If anyone wants to raise that one from the dead, it might be better than derailing this thread, especially since I haven't seen any suggestion that wasn't brought up in that thread.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Zombra » December 7th, 2017, 6:13 pm

_noblesse_oblige_ wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 5:30 pm
Or maybe the The Great Save Game Debate here in the BT fora. You know, the one that went on for like 36 pages and had repeats of the same debates over and over because no one wanted to read what anyone had previously written. ;) If anyone wants to raise that one from the dead, it might be better than derailing this thread, especially since I haven't seen any suggestion that wasn't brought up in that thread.
Yeah, even better. phimseto, if a rainy afternoon comes along with not much on your desk, I suggest a warm beverage, plenty of snacks nearby, and a good long look at that thread. There are good ideas there, trust me.
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by thebruce » December 7th, 2017, 7:11 pm

Indeed!
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Re: Update 39: Puzzle Weapons, Backer Portal, and a Vote!

Post by Drool » December 7th, 2017, 7:21 pm

demeisen wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 8:28 am
Yeah - I agree: I don't think this trend towards save-spam in every last game has been for the better. Being able to save only in a few safe areas like inns/guilds made the game world feel dangerous
Yeah, the Vegas Sewers in Wasteland didn't feel dangerous at all...
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