Building a Better Ranger: Melee Character Optimization

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PizzaSHARK
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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 4th, 2014, 12:38 pm

They aren't hard to build, not since the OP discovered how to maximize stats. Coordination is almost entirely worthless, Luck and Charisma are worthless, Awareness is distinctly weaker than Strength and Speed, and you can survive with one character being mildly retarded and only having 1 INT.

They aren't really any harder to use than ranged characters.

In what world would or should a guy's fists or a girl swinging a sledgehammer around cause more destruction than someone bursting people in the face with an assault rifle? Assault rifles in this game are probably overpowered due to weapon mods, anyway. Is melee competitive with the other weapon options?

Why should they? The AI is already pretty dumb, but at least it knows to go after the squishy guys using guns hiding in the back instead of the chufty guy in front. The addition of a "zone of control" type mechanic would probably greatly improve melee in this game, but would also make the game comically easy because the AI is already very weak.

I've gone into how stupid the friendly fire system in this game is and why it needs to be re-examined. It definitely makes melee almost impossible to use safely until your party's high enough level that they don't miss much to begin with.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by Tyraforce » October 4th, 2014, 2:17 pm

PizzaSHARK wrote:They aren't hard to build, not since the OP discovered how to maximize stats...and you can survive with one character being mildly retarded and only having 1 INT.
Sure but most players won't read this post and won't figgure out the attribute build. Most won't figgure out the 1 int thing + dropping to only 2 skills. Ranged builds are easier as you don't need STR.
PizzaSHARK wrote:In what world would or should a guy's fists or a girl swinging a sledgehammer around cause more destruction than someone bursting people in the face with an assault rifle?
Good point but I'd still expect the developers to give melee some purpose OR remove it as rangers are not dumb enough to bring a knife into a gunfight. Also, brwaling being supperior to swords and freaking big hammers is a bit funny.

AI is dumb and it doesn't even go for the squishy guys. They probably go for whoever attacked them. Instead they should stay in cover if they have somebody in range and shoot whoever they have best chance of hitting. I just had some retards with RPGs run to melee distance.

Ya, friendly fire has issues but the general concept is good. Realisticaly, you don't fire over somebody's head unless you are geared and trained for that. Also, if you don't have a 100% shot you don't shoot around friendly targets. There are too many games where this happens all the time that players just got lazy.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 4th, 2014, 2:51 pm

It's not even laziness, it's the fact that you plain don't get the luxury of that on harder difficulties. There simply isn't very much cover available in Wasteland 2, and melee using characters basically guarantee friendly fire is going to happen constantly.

Friendly fire was poorly implemented, and melee certainly didn't need any additional drawbacks added to it. The game as a whole feels like it could've used a couple extra balance passes before going live, honestly.

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ehrgeix
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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by ehrgeix » October 4th, 2014, 3:34 pm

Btw, one random thing I didn't mention or think about in op is that if you run 4 int, getting compsci on a melee guy is much easier, and that seems completely great?

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by frozyx » October 5th, 2014, 12:52 am

ehrgeix wrote:Btw, one random thing I didn't mention or think about in op is that if you run 4 int, getting compsci on a melee guy is much easier, and that seems completely great?
Comp Sci on a melee IS great. But you dont need 4 INT for it. In my new game i run a 1 INT bralwer with only Brawling and Comp Sci.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by Tyraforce » October 5th, 2014, 1:31 am

Ya, the game feels like they spent 80% of the time on Arizona, did LA in a haste and forgot about testing.
The closer you come to the end the more bugs appear with Buggywood being the ultimate debugger's nightmare.
They should have removed it and spend the time drawing a few more portraits and improving AI.
Now, that they've hopefully made a lot of money, my hopes for W3 are high and we migh even get a decent patch one day.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by willingcat » October 5th, 2014, 2:31 am

Maybe it's too late to say this, cause everyone may already know it now. There's 1 important thing didn't come up in your spreadsheet, and this thread. I think it could cause some huge misunderstanding such as 'Brawling Dam = Blunt Dam × 1.5~1.6', Cause it's not actually. About Blunt, We have to think about MOD.
marceror wrote: Weight Mods (Blunt and Bladed)
  • Grand Slam Weights: -10% Chance to Hit, +15% Critical Chance, WS8, 8.0 lbs
Since Blunts have high base damage, +15% Crit chance will make quite big differences.

<Plasma Hammer>
without mod --min 63 max 87 avg 75 Crit chance 21% Crit Mult 3.3 avg 1hit Dam 111.2 : Dam 27.8 /AP
with mod ------min 63 max 87 avg 75 Crit chance 36% Crit Mult 3.3 avg 1hit Dam 137.1 : Dam 34.3 /AP

I'm not in endgame yet, but it seems obvious you can't get 2 brawling weapon at once. So if you'll have 2 melee in your squad, taking 1 blunt weapon won't be that bad choice, especially Blunts have 2 pros
1. Can attack diagonally
2. High Penetration

So,
Plasma hammer : Pen 10, Dam34.3 /AP (not Dam27.8/AP)
Dragon Claw : Pen 6, Dam43.45/AP
If this is right. Blunt is not a bad choice for 2nd melee.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by M4xw0lf » October 5th, 2014, 3:40 am

willingcat wrote:Maybe it's too late to say this, cause everyone may already know it now. There's 1 important thing didn't come up in your spreadsheet, and this thread. I think it could cause some huge misunderstanding such as 'Brawling Dam = Blunt Dam × 1.5~1.6', Cause it's not actually. About Blunt, We have to think about MOD.
marceror wrote: Weight Mods (Blunt and Bladed)
  • Grand Slam Weights: -10% Chance to Hit, +15% Critical Chance, WS8, 8.0 lbs
Since Blunts have high base damage, +15% Crit chance will make quite big differences.

<Plasma Hammer>
without mod --min 63 max 87 avg 75 Crit chance 21% Crit Mult 3.3 avg 1hit Dam 111.2 : Dam 27.8 /AP
with mod ------min 63 max 87 avg 75 Crit chance 36% Crit Mult 3.3 avg 1hit Dam 137.1 : Dam 34.3 /AP

I'm not in endgame yet, but it seems obvious you can't get 2 brawling weapon at once. So if you'll have 2 melee in your squad, taking 1 blunt weapon won't be that bad choice, especially Blunts have 2 pros
1. Can attack diagonally
2. High Penetration

So,
Plasma hammer : Pen 10, Dam34.3 /AP (not Dam27.8/AP)
Dragon Claw : Pen 6, Dam43.45/AP
If this is right. Blunt is not a bad choice for 2nd melee.
Did you also take in the option of -1 AP for grip tape or the leather grip mods for the Plasma Hammer?

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ehrgeix
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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by ehrgeix » October 5th, 2014, 4:36 am

Yes, I took -1 AP into account. I used all the common Arizona mods.

Grand Slam weights do make Blunt/Bladed seem better, but by the time you're in California, say you're level 25 - Dragon Claw is 50~ damage per AP. Plasma Hammer is 28.5~. If you give the Plasma Hammer 15% more crit, it ends up at 35. To be comparable with Brawling, it'd need to get +45% crit from mods. And then it would still fall behind again as Brawling benefitted more from levels.

e: At real endgame stuff, level 40, Brawling (Dragon Claws) is like 67 damage/AP. Blunt (Plasma Hammer) reaches 65 with 100% critrate, which is obviously totally unobtainable in the real game.

e#2: Claws are pen 7 too. I really don't think it's a misconception to say that if you had 1 character with Brawling, and 1 with Blunt, the Brawling guy would do AT LEAST 1.5x the Blunt char's damage across a game. Maybe even like 1.75x. I think the only time I'd consider using Blunt is if you wanted to use Chisel, who is pretty reasonable for an NPC.
Last edited by ehrgeix on October 5th, 2014, 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

laszlolaszlo
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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by laszlolaszlo » October 5th, 2014, 4:54 am

ehrgeix wrote: Blunt reaches 65 with 100% critrate, which is obviously totally unobtainable in the real game.
What about "combat shooting" isn't it compatible with melee? 10 Points = 100% crit rate.

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ehrgeix
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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by ehrgeix » October 5th, 2014, 4:56 am

laszlolaszlo wrote:
ehrgeix wrote: Blunt reaches 65 with 100% critrate, which is obviously totally unobtainable in the real game.
What about "combat shooting" isn't it compatible with melee? 10 Points = 100% crit rate.
As far as I'm aware no one has found the combat shooting book at all. If they did, and if it was compatible with melee, blunt would be the biggest winner.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 5th, 2014, 5:59 am

ehrgeix wrote:Btw, one random thing I didn't mention or think about in op is that if you run 4 int, getting compsci on a melee guy is much easier, and that seems completely great?
I usually take Perception since I want my chuftiest guy leading the group around.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by willingcat » October 5th, 2014, 6:44 am

M4xw0lf wrote: Did you also take in the option of -1 AP for grip tape or the leather grip mods for the Plasma Hammer?
Yes, I took grip MOD -1, too.
<Plasma Hammer>
with mod --- [1hit Dam 137.1] ÷ [5AP - 1AP(grip mod)] = Dam 34.3 /AP

ehrgeix wrote: e: At real endgame stuff, level 40, Brawling (Dragon Claws) is like 67 damage/AP. Blunt (Plasma Hammer) reaches 65 with 100% critrate, which is obviously totally unobtainable in the real game.
If I caused some misunderstandings, I didn't mean that Blunt can beat Blawling.
I took chisel, and got Wrench, He's doing Dam 12 with 2AP(hard to see crit). My brawler is doing Dam 60 with 4AP(always crit).
So it's actually ×2.5 higher now...
I was just wondering if Blunt is really that weak in endgame, even with crit MOD, with Plasma Hammer.
It seems you've already finished game, so I'll just have to believe your words.


But still, If Enemy has 10 Armor, Brawling will get 40% penalty.
damirius wrote: For armor - armor penetration=
0: 100%;1: 80%;2: 70%;3: 60%;4 :40%; 5: 20%; 6-10: 0%;
Daragon Claw, Pen 7, Dam67/AP : Dam67 × 60% = Dam 40.2 / AP
Plasma Hammer, Pen 10, Dam35/AP : Dam35 × 100% = Dam 35 /AP
Doesn't it mean Blunts are not that bad for High Armor enemies? (well, maybe it'll be hard to see 'armor 10' enemies...)

I'll just have to stop talking and finish game first...haha...
I took Chisel, and spared all skill points, I have 32 points(Rank8) now. I can spend Rank8 on Brawling, but I can't click it.
Too sad, players are forced to use 1 absolute weapon. I'm witnessing 2.5× damage now, but I don't wanna believe it.
Does Brawling really have 1.5× higher damage even if enemies have high(Armor 10) armor?
I really like Chisel using Blunt weapons, hate to make him to use Brawling Weapons... :|

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Stat Optimization

Post by Garzhad » December 11th, 2014, 10:15 am

PizzaSHARK wrote:Melee is already strong enough; if it needs buffs, reduce the AP required for swings with some weapons, keeping Grip Tape mod in mind. 5 AP to swing a bat for 10 damage is probably a little too high, but 3 AP would be too low (2 AP with Grip Tape.) Or just remove Grip Tape and assume every weapon has it, which might be a better choice.

Then again, you could remove a lot of weapon mods like that since very few of them are anything but boring stat buffs that exist primarily to remove "because fuck you!" RNG (sturdy mag to remove chance of jamming, flashlight to reduce chance to miss, etc.) I'd rather weapon mods be more like Short Barrel (increased chance to hit but reduced maximum and effective range) or Open Choke (wider cone of fire, reduced maximum range), something you want to think about before slapping on a weapon.

If melee as a whole needs any kind of help, it's probably got to do with the low chance to hit. It's not an issue later in the game, but early on running up to someone and swinging with a 40% chance to miss (before evasion!) is extremely risky. Bladed and Blunt weapons can utilize cover due to their reach, but Brawling generally can't. Then again, Brawling has higher base accuracy and crit than they do.

Tanking should probably never be viable. It makes absolutely no sense for someone to be standing in the open soaking up bullets like a sponge and is completely immersion-breaking. I don't care if you're wearing combat armor or not, getting shot with an assault rifle is going to fucking hurt.
I'd like weapon mods to be a bit more interesting too. To expound upon your short barrel example though, i'd want short barrel in particular to also reduce the point blank range for the weapon attached to it, since using a short barrel is standard practice for urban indoor combat operations to make the weapon more maneuverable in close quarters and help you line up with the target quicker.

Tanking should be theoretically viable if you are in power armor and better, at least vs non-EW. It's kind of standard fare for power armor, like all the numerous lore bits from Fallout about the T-51B allowing the Americans to advance through any small-arms fire, smaller missiles and other similar ordnance the Chinese deployed against them while wielding heavy weapons like gatling guns, 40mm autocannons and other devastating weaponry themselves, requiring dedicated anti-tank and DE weapons to have any hope of taking them down. Accounts abound of lone power-armored soldiers wiping out an entire town or camp of hostile raiders with ease.

Even .338 Lapua isn't going to affect a dude wearing over 1/2" of highly advanced ballistic steel alloys and BFT padding.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Character Optimization

Post by Harpagornis » October 30th, 2015, 12:59 pm

A few other posters raised this point and I agree:

C L A S S I C
2 1 4 6 S 4 1 [9 AP, 14 CI]

Loses about 2.5-5% damage, but gains 0.2 Combat Speed and some Evasion. This makes it at least worth mentioning. Perhaps the 0.2 Combat Speed earns back the damage lost through AP saved by paying less to move. I'm not sure.
I can confirm the power of this build for the DC - works even for solo runs. Yes, you loose a bit of damage but you will need the skill points so Int 4 seems too good to pass on. Speed 10 is great as high Movement Speed is your best protection.

Combat-Movement-Speed-Progression:
Speed 10: 2.8
Speed 10 + Twitchy: 3.4
Speed 10 + Twitchy + Air Jordans: 4.0 (!)

You will outrun anyone in the game - only light will be faster than you! :D

Put every Attribute Point into Awareness. Once you reach a CI of 17 (or higher) you will have an easy time against most enemies. Double action ftw! Works nicely even on SJ-Difficulty.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Character Optimization

Post by Alewalek » November 3rd, 2015, 4:15 am

But we have skill point every 5 lvl right now not 10, at least this is what i read in manual(didn't check it yet in game) is this change this and ranged build ?

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Character Optimization

Post by Harpagornis » November 3rd, 2015, 4:24 am

Alewalek wrote:But we have skill point every 5 lvl right now not 10, at least this is what i read in manual(didn't check it yet in game) is this change this and ranged build ?
All numbers have to be rerolled because of the weapon mods - dont know if Ehrgeix or anyone else would do this job!

You get SKILL Points on every levelup - the number depends on your Intelligence.

You get another ATTRIBUTE Point every 10th level - same as in the vanilla game. ;)

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Character Optimization

Post by Alewalek » November 3rd, 2015, 4:41 am

Sorry was thinking about attribute points, and are you sure you get 1 every 10 lvl?

https://wasteland.inxile-entertainment. ... ter-system

Leveling up grants the following bonuses:

Increased CON (determined by Strength and Luck)
Additional Skill Points (determined by Intelligence)
Additional Attribute Points (every 5th level)
Additional Perk Points (every 4rd level) here in pdf manual is every 4th level and in forum manual every 3 soo its possible that attribute is every 10 not 5 and it just mistake that's why I'am asking.

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Re: Building a Better Ranger: Melee Character Optimization

Post by Drool » November 3rd, 2015, 12:55 pm

Attribute every 5 points happened back in the beta, I think, but I'm pretty sure it's been every 10 since release.
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