4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

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diivil
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by diivil » September 30th, 2014, 11:05 am

Tyraforce wrote:I just entered the pass so I'll let you know later today.

EDIT: There are 2 ways to the Titan toaster. Both have 1 Alarm on the way that cannot be avoided. Rank 5 did the trick but could be done with less.
There are 3? The one way that is not guarded, the one that DBM are at and third way is through the doctors (ask to talk to dr. Kyle and you get taken down). At least they all go below ground and while I didn't fully explore the level I assume they all lead to the toaster.

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ehrgeix
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » September 30th, 2014, 11:09 am

Did you get the quest from Enola and proc the event that spawns him underground? Like, was there an alarm on the way to that? (e: he turns up in the room with the locked up guy)

diivil
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by diivil » September 30th, 2014, 11:34 am

I loaded a save and explored the level. While you can get down from 3 places both of the doors that lead to the nuke have alarms so either you have to have alarm disarming or trip it and kill whoever comes.

But I don't think leveling up alarm disarm is worth it when you can just murder everyone there. You won't have party members who object to killing the monks which happened to me. They would start shooting me if I got too close but if I shot first Rose and Lex were not happy. Slightly annoying situation.

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ehrgeix
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » September 30th, 2014, 11:36 am

diivil wrote:I loaded a save and explored the level. While you can get down from 3 places both of the doors that lead to the nuke have alarms so either you have to have alarm disarming or trip it and kill whoever comes.
You don't have to get to the nuke. If you accept the quest to retrieve a nuke for Enola, and then you get to the room where the brother is locked up, Enola turns up and gives you free passage through the facility after talking to him.

diivil
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by diivil » September 30th, 2014, 12:00 pm

ehrgeix wrote:
diivil wrote:I loaded a save and explored the level. While you can get down from 3 places both of the doors that lead to the nuke have alarms so either you have to have alarm disarming or trip it and kill whoever comes.
You don't have to get to the nuke. If you accept the quest to retrieve a nuke for Enola, and then you get to the room where the brother is locked up, Enola turns up and gives you free passage through the facility after talking to him.
I can't seem to make that happen. I have Enola's quest for the nuke which he gave me above ground. I took the route from the doctors and can get to the jailed brother without any alarms in the way but Enola is not there. He is still by the gate and talking to him does nothing.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by veevoir » September 30th, 2014, 12:01 pm

In the room with jailed brother there is a bookshelf. Observe it with your perception ranger - it is full of hints the temple is a museum. Brother Enola turns up then.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 12:16 pm

Hm, I''ve done the temple 4 times now and never investigated that room. Well, 5 points in alarm and moving on. Thanks for thi hint. I'm gonna edit my guide.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by diivil » September 30th, 2014, 12:30 pm

veevoir wrote:In the room with jailed brother there is a bookshelf. Observe it with your perception ranger - it is full of hints the temple is a museum. Brother Enola turns up then.
You are correct. This was the piece I was missing. It seems to trigger the same cutscene as using perception on the nuke so you have to say yes a bunch of times. It doesn't remove the alarms but you can trigger them without getting shot and just stroll to the toaster.

You only get one chance of this though because you can only go to Dr. Kyle once.

-Talk to Dr. Baum and ask to see Dr. Kyle.
-You get taken below ground.
-Make your way to the room where the locked up brother is.
-Use perception on the bookcase. Cutscene triggers and you now have a free pass in the temple.
-You will have to trigger an alarm to get the to toaster but that doesn't matter because the monks won't start shooting you.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 4:52 pm

Update 2 - Arizona done

Combat and Build:
-Sniper rifles are only good for finishing enemies now - 40 dmg headshot compared to 100 AK47 bursts
-Gamma rocks - make sure you have rank 6+ energy weapons
-I managed to clear DMB "secret" base. It took me several reloads to find the right position and it was still pretty close. No interesting loot.

Damage output:
17CI Assault: 27k
17CI Assault: 27k
14CI Assault: 22k
15CI Sniper/Energy: 19k
So I think it's safe to say that +3 CI is worth 22% damage increase, which is about 7% per rank of Awareness.

Quests:
-0 Safecracking - I couldn't nuke the DMB militia safe - not sure if it can be opened at all
-0 Charisma - no Lex, no titan guy
-0 Ass skill except Hard Ass - no book from doctor, no chance to give toaster item to DMB leader
-0 Brute Force - no problems

-I can confirm you can get Gamma without Alarm skill

LA coming up!

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Apostrophe » October 1st, 2014, 12:15 am

Im also looking to try something like this, my current game on ranger difficulty is going too easy (and it bugged in both Dementia and Rail nomad camp so i am going to restart). Can CI go over 20 with trinkets? I am probably gonna start with
CO2 LK1 AW4 ST6 SP10 IN4 CH1 - 9AP,14CI, adding points depending on trinkets and max CI

also do i really need 10IN character? I dont plan on getting Gamma Ray so i dont really need tosters and alarms skill. Do i need to max weaponsmiting and surgeon? Any reason why i should not go 4 assault rifle, i had no problems with 6 assault rifle users but that was on ranger difficulty and i didnt even reach California yet.

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ehrgeix
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » October 1st, 2014, 3:12 am

Tyraforce wrote:Update 2 - Arizona done

Combat and Build:
-Sniper rifles are only good for finishing enemies now - 40 dmg headshot compared to 100 AK47 bursts
-Gamma rocks - make sure you have rank 6+ energy weapons
-I managed to clear DMB "secret" base. It took me several reloads to find the right position and it was still pretty close. No interesting loot.

Damage output:
17CI Assault: 27k
17CI Assault: 27k
14CI Assault: 22k
15CI Sniper/Energy: 19k
So I think it's safe to say that +3 CI is worth 22% damage increase, which is about 7% per rank of Awareness.

Quests:
-0 Safecracking - I couldn't nuke the DMB militia safe - not sure if it can be opened at all
-0 Charisma - no Lex, no titan guy
-0 Ass skill except Hard Ass - no book from doctor, no chance to give toaster item to DMB leader
-0 Brute Force - no problems

-I can confirm you can get Gamma without Alarm skill

LA coming up!
I wanted to say thanks for all the updates. It's really interesting.

Here are my notes on CI:

CI Actions in a 33 turn segment
6 10
7 11.64
8 13.31
9 14.93
10 16.57
11 18.21
12 19.86
13 21.51
14 23.14
15 24.79
16 26.43
17 28.07
18 29.72
19 31.36
20 33

So 15->18 CI is a 20%~ turn gain, which squares pretty much exactly with your real observations. Great.

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frozyx
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by frozyx » October 1st, 2014, 3:59 am

7% damage increase for AR users is exactly what i had my self. Did some maths earlier today and compared how my chars did between lvl 30 and 40 - when all had same full-moded equip and weapon skills. My CI 19 AR user also had around 7% more dmg than the one with only 18.

Thus i am very sure that a starting built of 4162A41 for an AR-user is so much better than a 4164841 build with 2 less SPD and 2 more STR. Speed is imo anyway the better survivability stat with 2% more evade and higher movement speed (for melees and for getting into cover if necessary). The extra SPD is nice with Power Armor equipped anyway. And the former built just does 7% more damage. That trumps everything imo.

Btw, i took some notes comparing my CI 25 guy (thanks to the Choice trinket) with my other 2 AR users on 19 and 15 CI. I counted the turns they had in the rather long Dugan fight and it was like this:

CI 25: 9 turns
CI 19: 7 turns
CI 15: 5 turns

The CI 19 guy was the one who acted last. Before him, the CI 25 had his turn. The CI 15 girl was inactive for the longest period. Cant tell who of the latter two would have been next though.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » October 1st, 2014, 4:48 am

Apostrophe wrote:Im also looking to try something like this, my current game on ranger difficulty is going too easy (and it bugged in both Dementia and Rail nomad camp so i am going to restart). Can CI go over 20 with trinkets? I am probably gonna start with
CO2 LK1 AW4 ST6 SP10 IN4 CH1 - 9AP,14CI, adding points depending on trinkets and max CI
Interesting build. I don't think there is a reason for a CI cap. I haven't tried it.
Apostrophe wrote:also do i really need 10IN character? I dont plan on getting Gamma Ray so i dont really need tosters and alarms skill.
No, you don't need one if you drop those 2. 4x4 int is fine.
Apostrophe wrote:Do i need to max weaponsmiting and surgeon? Any reason why i should not go 4 assault rifle, i had no problems with 6 assault rifle users but that was on ranger difficulty and i didnt even reach California yet.
Weaponsmithing: With rank 8 you can get all mods but have 50% chance to remove top mods. You can count on getting a +2 item and a book as well.

Surgeon: The best trauma kit requires surgeon 7 (suggested). You can count on a +2 item as well.

4x AR is ok unless you want Gamma Ray, which:
-deals about double damage compared to AR when you get it and tripple vs high armor
-is cheap to run - mostly no need to buy ammo
-is a nice way for removing melee range enemies without breaking formation
-is still comparable to AR by the end of the game
That said, if you go for Gamma, that guy needs a secondary weapon, other than that, getting gamma requires only about rank 3 toaster + 1 rank from book (I just got it with rank 5 but I think 4 is enough).

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » October 1st, 2014, 4:55 am

frozyx wrote: Thus i am very sure that a starting built of 4162A41 for an AR-user is so much better than a 4164841
Yup, but then you need a mule to carry your stuff and move it around every time you pick somethin up. I have a 20STR team and I woudn't go for less. I agree SPE is superior to STR in survivability.
Thanks for the data. CI is really OP.

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frozyx
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by frozyx » October 1st, 2014, 5:08 am

Tyraforce wrote:
frozyx wrote: Thus i am very sure that a starting built of 4162A41 for an AR-user is so much better than a 4164841
Yup, but then you need a mule to carry your stuff and move it around every time you pick somethin up. I have a 20STR team and I woudn't go for less. I agree SPE is superior to STR in survivability.
Thanks for the data. CI is really OP.
I have a 10 ST brawler making up for it a bit. And i strip a lot with weaponsmithing. Finally i have 2 backpacks with me for 40 lbs extra that i use when i am done with a map and want to carrx stuff to the next vendor.

I mean i get your point. Its also more convenient. But i find combat more difficult than carrying things with me :)

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » October 3rd, 2014, 10:27 am

Update 3 - Ready for Hollywood

Combat and Build:
-I did't manage to get 4 laser sights so I didn't use them to have fair results, I did get 4 tactical scopes tho
-Lacking Leadership, Coordination and Laser Sights AK-97 headshot bursts were rare. The 8-10% bonus from leadership would be great and imho worth it
-The Jerks attacked me in their HQ and I didn't "sabotage" anything so I was up for a nice fight. Fighting in the house was not goona happen so I prepared the team outside behind cars and sent my fastest guy in to talk. He barely managed to get out alive but then it was doable.
-Whittier was a nightmare. Even withou armor you get heavily outnumbered and outflanked and it was hard to heal thru even the low damage from energy weapons. I had to reaload about 6 times. With 7 guys I just stayed where I was but with halp the HP this was not an option.

Damage output:
23CI Assault: 57k (wearing choice trinket)
18CI Assault: 51k
15CI Assault: 38k
16CI Energy: 45k

Since I equipped choice:
23CI Assault: 22k (wearing choice trinket)
18CI Assault: 16k

Quests:
-0 Safecracking - I wanted to side with the Jerks but they asked for the booze recepy and I couldn't get in the bank vault without starting a fight. You can use as many explosives as you want on the door and nobody cares but once you use the bomb you from Dante, they all suddenly notice. So you you have to be the good guy here, kill the Jerks, blow the safe open and give the recepy to the mayor.
-0 Charisma - no Ertan
-0 Ass skill except Hard Ass - no problems, there are several opportunities to use Smart and Kiss but they have the same results. I kinda expected I wouldn't get the location of Fletcher or learn about Manners and his wife but it all played out exactly the same way minu some minor XP.
-0 Brute Force - kinda hard to explore Oracle steam tunnels

Btw, they still didn't fix the part where they take 1 char prisoner. They still don't return the equipped weapons.

Holiwood coming up!

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » October 5th, 2014, 12:20 pm

Update 4 - DONE

I finished quite early with most chars at lvl 39. This was mostly because Hollywood is still bugged as hell and I didn't fell like doing it all.

Combat and Build:
-the very last fight proved difficult. They may have enhanced AI there as the enemies were more aggressive.


Final Damage output:
23CI Assault: 91 (wearing choice trinket)
18CI Assault: 78k
15CI Assault: 60k
16CI Energy: 71k

Quests:
-low mechanical repair - I wasn't able to fix the tower in Rodia, however this is not needed to finish the game and has no result on the outcome
-0 Charisma - the SMG priest didn't show up at all, I dodn't get the mission where you fight the scorpion
-0 Ass skill except Hard Ass - no problems
-0 Brute Force - no problems

This is it for me and Wasteland for a very long time. You guys have fun and may the desert be a better place!

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ehrgeix
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » October 5th, 2014, 12:27 pm

Thanks for the updates. Was a good read. Have fun with whatever's next. (SRR: Dragonfall is pretty good if you're looking for some similar game). =)

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 5th, 2014, 6:53 pm

Interesting read. Thanks for the breakdown.

Think I might just forget Weaponsmithing and Toaster Repair on my 4-man. A lot of the balance issues regarding ARs come from the mods they can use, so removing them should make them a fair bit less overpowered, yeah? Also means no free cash from weapon scraps, so cash should be a bit harder to come by. Toaster Repair is out because, honestly, those trinkets and shit are mad fucking OP. Don't really like Toaster Repair as a concept since it has no purpose but to be a skill point sink in exchange for extremely overpowered loot (ironically damned near the only non-random loot in the game!)

If I was gonna do a game without ARs/gamma... hmm. Probably one heavy weapons and the other one a sniper? Energy weapons would still probably be worth taking - herbicide and pulse rifle are very good. I get the feeling you'd need some characters with more than one weapon skill since SMG and shotties are fantastic against light armor, but would be pretty useless against enemies with heavy armor, slicer dicers, etc.

The other option might be to pretend you're playing a group of blind, crippled braniac Wolverines... 10 INT and 10 STR, no more than 2 SPD, no more than 4 AW or CO.

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