4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

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Tyraforce
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4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 28th, 2014, 12:54 am

After finishing a full team Supreme jerk game I found the difficulty a bit lacking towards the end of the game despite the fact the team was far from optimal and I made every mistake in the book while creating it.
Now with the patch out, I'm gonna do it again. This time just with the 4 starting memebers to make it more fun. It took me some time to figgure out a lot of things about the game and I wrote most of the info down here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9087&p=122545#p122545
I welcome any improvement suggestions or concerns.

The Supreme Jerks:
Fast Assault Scout: 4,1,6,4,8,4,1
9AP, 15CI
SPE gives more survivability than STR, AW will be maxed at lvl 40
Assault rifles
Perception + Demolition both about 2 levels behind AR

Fast Assault Technician:
4,1,6,4,8,4,1
9AP, 15CI
Same as the first build
Assault rifles
Weaponsmithing 2 levels behind AR
Toasters I get some levels before titan temple then travel around and collect the stuff
Mechanical repair very low level as most repairs are at the beginning of the game - can be skipped altogether

Stationary Assault Skillperson and Surgeon
4,1,6,4,2,10,1
9AP, 12CI
This guy stays back and snipes with AR. AW will be maxed at lvl 40.
Assault rifles + Comp + Lockpick
Alarms + Surgeons 3 levels behind
Outdoorsman 2 levels at the start, the plan it to take it to lvl 5 or 6.

Hybrid Tank
2,1,4,8,8,4,1
9AP, 13CI
Until Titan Temple, this will be my sniper then he switches to Energy weapons (Gamma Ray ftw) and becomes the tank for the party utilising 0 range penalties and brutal dmg of Gamma Ray. Sniper rifle on second slot remains useful to keep up with team's range. This is also my primary medic so he can self-heal when tanking and initiate with RPGs.
Sniper rifles kept high till Titan
Energy weapons I'll start investing before titan and max asap.
Medic about 2 levels behind primary weapon
Hard ass whatever I can spare - not needed ofc

I expect the sniper to be strong until I get long barels for my assault team at which point the sniper converts to energy, which will solve the Demonta problem. I wonder how soon I can make the assault headshot burs work when investing heavily in AR.

EDIT:
Final Damage output:
23CI Assault: 91 (wearing choice trinket)
18CI Assault: 78k
15CI Assault: 60k
16CI Energy: 71k


Missing skills:
Animal Whisperer - no ned to explain
Brute Force - Too little impact to be worth it. Granades will have to do. Don't worry, I won't let Ralphy die - he can be saved without BF.
Safecracking - I can't afford to keep all the loot skills high. This one is the worst. I'll skip 1 quest in HP.
Kiss Ass + Smart Ass - My conversation skills are found in the weapons section - I'm curious how the game develops
Leadership[ - I was trying to fit it in somehow but I keep the team too separated to be able to use this with low charisma.
Barter: I will probably get 3 levels at some point.

The sacrifice:
I will sure miss some quests and unique quest solutions. I am mostly interested in how much low charisma affects the game.
I don't expect to lose too much damage per round but the party HP poll will be much lower.

Ammo and scrap:
I expect to buy a lot more ammo, however I also expect to save a lot of scrap by bying fewer pieces of armor and weapons. Also, I will have to deconstruct fewer weapons. Anyway, I will do a lot of traveling to get the ammo.

Lessons learned on the way:
I'd drop Alarm as you can get Gamma without it in a peaceful manner.
I'd put Computers on the second character who can use his speed to hack more robots.
I'd start investing in Energy weapons earlier - around Prison. Rank 5 is too low to use Gamma burst most of the time.
Last edited by Tyraforce on October 5th, 2014, 12:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by willingcat » September 28th, 2014, 1:12 am

Playing with 4 Combatant build is not that hard. Cause there's no loss on leader. The reason why make a full party is - it's fun! Actually, CNPCs are all dumb, moron rookies. I don't think they helps combats that much.(Oh. XXcking Chisel gone rogue again...) Devs really massed up CNPCs. But, it's fun. of course I don't mean that your play won't be fun :)

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frozyx
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by frozyx » September 28th, 2014, 2:12 am

Interesting party, esp. for a 2nd playthrough after playing very diplomatic the first game (like i do) and want to see how the game evolves when you are hard assing through. Thats why the lack of Smart and Kiss Ass isnt an issue but a RP decision then :) And the party is interesting even if you plan on using NPCs.

I still dont get the idea behind the tank in conjunction with Sniper Rifles. I mean, you want to be close the the enemies (i.e. 'tank' them), right? Sniper seems more interesting on your 3rd guy. Also, it might be a good idea to put Comp Tech on the tank. I got it on Rose obv and its very annoying for hacking robots in combat (she is my sniper). On the tank it could be exactly where it belongs :)

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 28th, 2014, 2:19 am

Good point with the comp. I was too lazy to hack robots first time around so I forgot about it.

Snipe rifles on tank sounds strange BUT
a) I wanted the most effective weapon untill I can get my hands on Gamma.
b) I am not planning on using that sniper rifle much once I have Gamma.
c) You can initiate combat with that sniper rifle whill being in front of your team.
d) You can still use Sniper rifle with enemies in your face later on. You just shoot somebody in ideal range.

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ehrgeix
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » September 28th, 2014, 3:57 am

Misc. thoughts:

I think that even if you change nothing, you'll breeze through SJ with that party. It's too bad they didn't include a harder mode.

You're right about 4 1 6 4 8 4 1 guys using HS bursts being very strong, of course. I might be tempted to start as 2 1 8 4 8 4 1 and pick up +coordination at l10/20, since you probably won't have r10 assault rifles before that with 3 skills on a guy.

On my AR users, I started mostly using burst at r8 (95%~ hit with a long barrel and M16). You could probably use it slightly earlier if you didn't care about ammo waste. I think HS burst becomes optimal at like r9-10, but it heavily depends on the weapon you're using and mods. Assuming 100% hitchance on everything, at r10 AR, AK-47 NORMAL burst is actually more damage per AP than HS burst, because it has 2.4 critrange for some reason. M16 goes from 22.5~ damage per AP for a normal burst, to 28.3~ for a HS burst. But uh, obviously damage per AP isn't everything if it means you have to sit there with 2 AP wasted (I'd totally consider a 7AP leader, though?). I guess you really want to get flash suppressors and laser sights asap - they're probably the breakpoint where HS burst becomes really good.

The +4 strength guy is probably just worse than another 4 1 6 4 8 4 1 guy. Like if you actually look at how much health the extra strength gives you, it seems not very meaningful?

I don't really think it's worth going for Sniper Rifles on your EW guy (especially if tanking, because you end up end up Under Pressure even if you don't fire at something point blank and take a short range penalty too). Maybe just take like r3 SMGs instead, and max out EWs sooner?

Melee thoughts:

I think that running one melee character will make the game easier for you. This is because using 3 AR seems kind of inconvenient for ending up Under Pressure and stuff? (and also you might have some ammo issues?) 2x AR 1x melee 1x EW seems like a nicer balance to me.

If you're at all tempted by the melee idea, consider knives if you can get This Is A Knife very early in California, or brawling (this kind of sucks mid-Arizona unless you luck out and get some Rebar Knuckles before ToT).

Something like:

Melee: 2 1 4 9 S 1 1 - 9 AP, 14 CI
// Future: +awareness
// Max: Brawling
// A few points / max later: Field Medic
// Animal Whisperer[1] (re-tame goat whenever you go back to Citadel for +1 awareness buff)

You only get 2sp/lvl, but that's fine for brawling and field medic (especially since you can do 9->10 with books on both skills). Strength 9 is slightly less than ideal, but it balances out your str/int/speed to 5AP, and still gives +18% melee damage/+90% crit range. Obviously you have to use AP on moving, but you're doing pretty significantly more ap per attack than HS burst AR guys, even if you assume the HS bursts have 100% hitrate. And you can pressure enemy ranged guys! (Or peel for yours).

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Shining Hector » September 28th, 2014, 4:16 am

I would have moved 2 AW to 2 CO for 10 AP for the first 2 anyway, the cheesy headshot burst isn't really feasible for the first half of the game before you max AR anyway, and you have no leader to boost hit chance for that maneuver. 15 CI is quite nice, but I'd rather have 2 shots at 13 CI than one at 15, especially if you're putting all level ups in awareness. Kiting isn't always an option, sometimes you just need to light 'em up. If you plan on nothing but burst fire and movement the whole game I guess 9 AP works, though.

Also seems strange to have your tank with a sniper rifle, I would have put it on one of the first two, given him 10 AP to shoot twice per round, and used it the whole game. Sniper has better armor penetration, so it's a bit redundant to retire it when you pick up energy weapons for robots, just put EW on an AR user and save your ammo. You also get a bit of ammo economy by keeping a sniper active but retiring one of the assault rifles.

You can move 2 CO and 2 AW to 4 SP for the third guy, keep the same AP/CI, boost evade, and make him not so stationary. Another build would be 1 1 1 4 10 10 1, put level 10 point in CO for 10 AP, start with 11 CI. Quite survivable, maybe even a candidate for the sniper rifle if you're hung up on 9 AP assault riflers. 2 shots most rounds, then dash halfway across the screen and continue shooting if he gets mobbed, that's a good sniper on top of being your skill mule.

Otherwise looks really good.

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frozyx
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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by frozyx » September 28th, 2014, 7:47 am

Tyraforce wrote:Good point with the comp. I was too lazy to hack robots first time around so I forgot about it.

Snipe rifles on tank sounds strange BUT
a) I wanted the most effective weapon untill I can get my hands on Gamma.
b) I am not planning on using that sniper rifle much once I have Gamma.
c) You can initiate combat with that sniper rifle whill being in front of your team.
d) You can still use Sniper rifle with enemies in your face later on. You just shoot somebody in ideal range.
Dunno if it is a good idea to waste the Gamma Ray on a rather low CI char. The Gamma Ray is the best weapon for large parts of the game and it could be really good to put it on someone with high CI to make best use of it. Esp. as the ammo is so cheap. I have it on Pizepi and what really bugs me is her low CI. Good thing i had some engagement rings to buff her CI nicely. But i could even use that on a high CI char ...

Maybe a 8 AP, 17-18 CI starting char would be optimal, as the Gamma Burst only costs 8 AP. Or you go for a 9 AP built, where you can still max CI on lvl 40 and use the engagement rings to drop AP to 8 and have 3 extra CI. 23 CI surely sounds fun for Gamma Raying around :)

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Shining Hector » September 28th, 2014, 8:09 am

Yeah, that's actually a great idea. Put the EW on one of the first 2 assault rifle users and you can spam it with the high CI and use the AR for low armor foes mainly. Plan on the engagement ring or else front-load AW with 2 CO, 8 AW to start with 17 CI and then put the lvl 30 & 40 points in CO for a final 9 AP.

The other option would be to change the tank to 2 1 4 6 10 4 1 for 9 AP, 14 CI and still give him the EW. Sacrificing 1 HP per level for 1 CI and more evade and movement is worth it IMO if he's going to be the tank. Throw a late-level point in STR if you absolutely gotta have the best armor.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 28th, 2014, 11:31 am

Thanks for all the suggestions.
-I fully agree that str is not that strong but as the other guys have 4 str I really need a mule. Somebedo needs to carry those RPGs.
-I don't want a dedicated sniper as ARs are just so much better from Titan onwards. They are equal to AR only vs targets with armor 9 and 10 and those are rare. -I wanted an EW guy but needed a weapon to use until he gets Gamma. I did consider SMG which are ok till Titan but suck at endgame. Snipers are the most powerful starting characters and I'm sure I will use that rifle a bit after I get gamma. I can't imagine using a smg when I have Gamma.
-I have Gamma on a 13 CI character cuz I want a tank and this is the best tank weapon. Also I expect ARs to outrank Gamma soon cuz I'm Investing a lot in them. I finished Highpool with r6 AR on the first 2 guys and used my first 80% bursts.
-10 AP on AR doesn't make sence to me. I'm not gonna use 2 M16 single shots. As I got M16, burst is almost viable and I can carry a 4 AP rifle to use in combination with 5AP M16.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 2:04 am

Update 1 - Greetings from Titan Pass

Combat and Build:
-an optimised 4-men teams is easier so far than 7 flawed characters. The only fight I had to reload was Jackhammer under Highpool final wall. I had to go to the trailer and buy dynamite. Other than that, most fight are fast and they don't even scratch me.
-ARs outclass SR as soon as you get M16, which has better range, ammo capacity, dmg per shot, dmg per AP, ammo cost and the almighty burst. Bulpup Sniper Rifle only gives you 1+ penetration and doesn't have the -20 long range penalty.
-Early investment in your primary weapons almost breaks the game. Combined with high CI most enemies don't even see it coming.
-Early Weponsmithing 4 gives you access to almighty Long barrel roughly around Nomad Camp. Rank 5 seems useless so far.
-Combined 20 STR is enough to carry stuff so far without backpacks or special arrangements.

Damage output:
16CI Assault:11k
16CI Assault:11k
13CI Assault: 9k
14CI Sniper: 9k
That 3 CI difference is suprisingly huge, huh?

Quests:
-0 Safecracking - No dowry quest in HP. No significant reward and you don't need it to finish the HP vote.
-0 Charisma - Mr. Scotchmo was willing to join until he realized "we stink worse than him". I made those his last words. Vulture was willing to join our stinking party and so was Ralphy and Angela. No Pizepi.
-0 Ass skill except Hard Ass - I didn't get the destilery location and can't find it. I'm gonna test it later with higher outdoorman (it might help).
-0 Brute Force - I can't help the merchant in Prison. Everything else is doable with explosives and I only bought 2 granades so far.
-I have to spend a lot on ammo but I have more scrap than with a full group - 4k atm.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Larsen » September 30th, 2014, 2:32 am

Better off taking safecracking than alarm disarming. Computer science will take care of most of the same things as alarm disarming, and safecracking is about half the game's safes (as well as a few doors, for some reason). I also skip toaster repair and just go and grab Ralphy for the few toasters that result in something valuable. I recommend a backup weapon skill on your rifle characters -- 4-6 points in handgun will do.

Also, while it's possible to run three assault rifle characters, you will have to buy a lot of ammo and usually can't buy three of the best assault rifles at once so you'll have to hope some drop from enemies. I prefer to have 2x assault, 1x sniper, 1x SMG+energy. Sniper remains powerful and useful for initiating combat from extreme distances. Assault rifles are better during the M16 phase, but then sniper picks back up again and the .50 rifles are very strong.

SMGs are actually not that bad. If you want a tanky non-melee character, they're perfect. Don't need to raise the skill that high (I leave it at 6) and it's as strong as an assault rifle if the short range isn't a concern, which it wouldn't be on a front-liner. An energy weapon character needs a backup weapon for low-armor targets anyway, and that might as well be a weapon that's specifically designed for that. The sniper rifle is better served on a full-time sniper.
Last edited by Larsen on September 30th, 2014, 2:43 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by veevoir » September 30th, 2014, 2:39 am

Safecracking - I can't afford to keep all the loot skills high. This one is the worst. I'll skip 1 quest in HP.
You won't. As long as the safe is not boobytrapped - it is safe to open it with explosives (dynamite for sure, dont know about more damaging exp).

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 4:31 am

Larsen,
most of your comments are based on how things should be and maybe when they rebalance the game, you will be right. Right now, however, you are mostly wrong.
Larsen wrote:Better off taking safecracking than alarm disarming. Computer science will take care of most of the same things as alarm disarming, and safecracking is about half the game's safes (as well as a few doors, for some reason).
I took Alarm to get to Gamma Ray without murdering all those pshychos down there and to solve at least 1 other quest withou mass slaughter. I cant remember door that would require Safe skill. As for loot, stuff found in containers is hadly eve an upgrade and with 1 luck there is not much stuff there anyway. I have 4k scrap atm and all the gear scrap can buy.
Larsen wrote: I also skip toaster repair and just go and grab Ralphy for the few toasters that result in something valuable.
I need toaster repair for Gamma Ray and I'm not recruiting a single NPC to make the game harder.
Larsen wrote: I recommend a backup weapon skill on your rifle characters -- 4-6 points in handgun will do.
That's what I thought during my first game. However, I realized you can always use your assault rifle. If somebody comes right next to you, just shoot somebody else. I would still use my assault rifle even if somebody trained those 6 handgun ranks for free. I carry secondary 4AP/shot Assault rifles for the finishing shots and AP management.
Larsen wrote: Also, while it's possible to run three assault rifle characters, you will have to buy a lot of ammo and usually can't buy three of the best assault rifles at once so you'll have to hope some drop from enemies. I prefer to have 2x assault, 1x sniper, 1x SMG+energy. Sniper remains powerful and useful for initiating combat from extreme distances. Assault rifles are better during the M16 phase, but then sniper picks back up again and the .50 rifles are very strong.
Ya, I have to buy a lot of ammo but it is unlimited and I'm sitting on those 4k atm.
As far as I know, the only places where you get beeter ARs from enemies compared to shops are the pre-citadel beginning and then Titan Pass if you kill the militia guys on the way (in which case you get 3 AKs very fast).
Most key shops will restock whenever you re-enter the area (tested with Citadel and Holiwood) so getting 3 pieces is easy.
I'm sorry to say SRs dont pick back after you the M16 or I didn't get that feeling. As for "initiating combat from extreme distances", I'd rather initiate with 3 bursts at 50m then with a single headshot at 53m range. Yup, there is hardly ever a noticible range difference - which is wrong but still a fact. I find SRs useful only when you have to shoot a target in cover at long ditances, which is rare.
Larsen wrote: SMGs are actually not that bad. If you want a tanky non-melee character, they're perfect. Don't need to raise the skill that high (I leave it at 6) and it's as strong as an assault rifle if the short range isn't a concern, which it wouldn't be on a front-liner. An energy weapon character needs a backup weapon for low-armor targets anyway, and that might as well be a weapon that's specifically designed for that. The sniper rifle is better served on a full-time sniper.
I'm not going to be using Energy Weapons in general but an OP piece of godliness called the Gamma Ray Emmiter. This thing has armor treshold 2 and by the time you get it almost everything has 3+ armor. Energy weapons need even fewer ranks than SMGs cuz the have no range penalties, no headshots and no crit bonuses. SMGs with long barrels have ok range but suffer from lack of penetration and low damage. To give you an example. The best AR fires 7AP burst for 28dmg/AP. The best SMG fires 8AP burst for 17dmg/AP. The Rifle has double range and +1 penetration. The SMG only advantage is a small to hit bonus at short range. In other words, SMG suck.
Last edited by Tyraforce on September 30th, 2014, 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 4:34 am

veevoir wrote: You won't. As long as the safe is not boobytrapped - it is safe to open it with explosives (dynamite for sure, dont know about more damaging exp).
Hm, I didn't know that. Thanks a lot.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » September 30th, 2014, 4:55 am

Btw, I actually got the gamma ray without alarm disarming - I accepted quest (retrieve nuke) from Enola, then just walked around down there (avoiding patrols, I went through the hatch that some DBM guys are trying to get through). Enola turned up after I talked to the guy that told me the nuke was a fake, and told me he'd kill me if I didn't retrieve the nuke for them. I said I'd retrieve the nuke, then I could just walk around down there normally and got the toaster.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 4:59 am

ehrgeix wrote:Btw, I actually got the gamma ray without alarm disarming...
EDIT: There are 2 ways to the Titan toaster. Both have 1 Alarm on the way that cannot be avoided. Rank 5 did the trick but could be done with less.
Last edited by Tyraforce on September 30th, 2014, 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by diivil » September 30th, 2014, 5:01 am

You can abuse the hell out of RNC vendor for ammo if you wish. You get 50% discount after doing his quest and he sells 7.62mm. Traveling to Atchison's camp and then back to RNC resets his supplies so you can just shuttle between the zone transition to buy as much as ammo as you can carry. Leave a character at Atchinson's camp entrance so you don't even have to run back each time.

I think he sold 5.56mm before doing his quest but after I completed it he stopped selling 5.56mm and instead sells 7.62mm. Or it could be based on something else, I don't know, the main thing is he sells 7.62mm at 50% of the price.

Also few points of CI really is godlike. I'm playing on supreme jerk as a full group (still on my first ever playthrough), I had 9AP/15CI character from the beginning and the dude out damaged even Angela which is quite remarkable since Angela can do 2 m16 single shots a turn and 9AP character can't. You can even get 16 CI if you tame a goat right from the beginning.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by diivil » September 30th, 2014, 5:03 am

Tyraforce wrote:
ehrgeix wrote:Btw, I actually got the gamma ray without alarm disarming...
I though most of the doors down there have alarms on them. I always go thru the door in a little house in the corner of the temple.
You can get in to the place from the infirmary and the first door there doesn't have an alarm if I remember correctly. I don't know if any subsequent doors require alarm disarming or not though.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by ehrgeix » September 30th, 2014, 5:05 am

Hm, I had Lexcanium with me so it's possible there was an alarm and I forgot about it, but I'm like 95% sure I didn't run into any going through the DBM hatch.

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Re: 4-men Supreme Jerk Madness

Post by Tyraforce » September 30th, 2014, 5:07 am

I just entered the pass so I'll let you know later today.

EDIT: There are 2 ways to the Titan toaster. Both have 1 Alarm on the way that cannot be avoided. Rank 5 did the trick but could be done with less.

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