DIfferent ammo types

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Grimage » September 1st, 2014, 1:55 am

So, it's simpler to change weapons than it is to change ammo?
This is not about simplicity, but weapon balance and tactical choices.
If some ammos and therefore weapons have better expansion but low penetration, they can be more efficient on low armor targets than high penetration ones. Usually, during encounters there are opponents with armor, and others with less. You can split your team on one or the other type depending on what weapon they have.
You are talking about changing weapon, but that assumes your character has two different ranged skills and two ranged weapons. Ammo types just requires you to have the same skill/weapon (no brainer choice would say someone?). Usually i consider that a character has one efficient ranged skill/weapon, so he has a "role" and is useful in it.

Don't get me wrong, i like ammo types, but they have to be implemented right. Now i've played WL2 bêta, i know what we have and i can guess what they can do with the tactical combat. Giving current ammos stats is a first step, and a good one IMO. The next step could be ammo types with a little work, maybe fully exploited by modders later if the dev team couldn't balance it enough before release.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by -Archangel- » September 1st, 2014, 3:44 am

Just giving ammo stats does not do much as one weapon can always only use one ammo and whatever ammo gives can already be put into weapon stats.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Crosmando » September 1st, 2014, 5:00 am

What above said. If ammo types were a really tactical choice, such that different enemies had resistances and weaknesses to certain types of ammo, so the player was encouraged to change ammo type constantly and during combat - that would be cool. If it's just another way to add +10 damage then it's pointless.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » September 1st, 2014, 4:54 pm

Priest4hire wrote:The problem with different ammo types, if they're common, is that they become a rote, mindless action necessary to be optimum in combat. It's the kind of thing a smile bot could handle. If enemy armour is greater than x, then switch to y ammo.
You could just as easily say, "If enemy armour is greater than x, then switch to a bigger gun." The basic situation is that for a given armor, certain weapons (and/or ammo) can get better penetration effects. Different ammo types make it possible to achieve better penetration effects without having to switch weapons. And AP-wise, it's faster to swap ammo than it is to swap weapons.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by randir14 » September 1st, 2014, 5:32 pm

Last month's patch got rid of the ammo slot in the equipment screen so I don't think different ammo types is going to happen. They probably scrapped the idea along with reloading benches. (There actually used to be a reference to the benches in a previous build, a room in Ag Center triggered the text "you see a workbench in the corner" even though there wasn't one.)

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » September 1st, 2014, 9:06 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:I get the sense that you are of the opinion, "If it's something I need, it should _never_ be scarce!"
In which case I get the sense you only skim my posts.
But, like I said, I got shouted down, so then the "solution" would be to make EVERY ammo type be available in quantities similar to what the singular ammo types are now. There. No sweating over the lack of AP rounds at the various vendors; it's always in supply.
To borrow from Zombra: you're back to ALL OR NOTHING.
If you do NOT know the target's armor type, it would be a guessing game, with no need to run the numbers anyway.
Ambushing foes are generally pretty rude about not letting you position yourself and select armor-appropriate ammunition. To say nothing of the fringe cases where armor values are on the cusp for that particular gun and that particular caliber. Oh yes. Such fun we will have.
But I'm wondering: If there is no variety in ammo, why is there variety in armor? For every Defense, there is usually an appropriate Offense. If this, then that. But if there is only ONE Offense, there's no ability to use something that maximizes penetration tougher armors. (Other than by using different weapons.
So... there should only be one kind of armor now? This doesn't make any sense. Armor moves up in tiers just like weapons. A tier 6 shotgun will chew through tier 1 armor like tissue paper. A tier 1 sniper rifle will be less than especially effective against tier 6 armor. It's balanced (more or less). Adding AP rounds would tip things much more in favor of the weapon side.

Defense and Offense traditionally improve in tandem. Someone makes an Awesome Armor, and rather quickly, someone devises something to defeat it. Someone invents an Awesome Weapon, and rather quickly, someone devises a way to mitigate it. It's an uneasy balance, precarious, even. But it's there. It maintains. If we're going to add AP ammunition, then I suppose it's only appropriate that someone start screaming about ceramic strike plates for the body armor. Those are things that exist too, and they're specifically designed to counteract armor piercing rounds.

And, of course, we sort of already have AP rounds with energy weapons. They're an entire class of weapon designed around enemy armor.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » September 1st, 2014, 10:09 pm

Drool wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:
But, like I said, I got shouted down, so then the "solution" would be to make EVERY ammo type be available in quantities similar to what the singular ammo types are now. There. No sweating over the lack of AP rounds at the various vendors; it's always in supply.
To borrow from Zombra: you're back to ALL OR NOTHING.
How is it "all or nothing"? All it is is a parallel to the ammo scarcity argument. The "We want LOTS of ammo!" crowd won that debate. It was effectively an availability of every kind of ammo. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if more ammo types were added, they would be added in quantities to assure there was seldom a shortage?
Drool wrote:
If you do NOT know the target's armor type, it would be a guessing game, with no need to run the numbers anyway.
Ambushing foes are generally pretty rude about not letting you position yourself and select armor-appropriate ammunition. To say nothing of the fringe cases where armor values are on the cusp for that particular gun and that particular caliber. Oh yes. Such fun we will have.
So challenging isn't "fun"? You want everything to be simplified? Or just this one thing? Don't have to worry about using the right ammo for the job because there's only ONE to choose from.
Drool wrote:So... there should only be one kind of armor now?
Sort of goes hand in hand with the reduction of choices needing to be made, doesn't it?
Drool wrote:Armor moves up in tiers just like weapons.
In a game design perhaps. But in the Reality that game is trying to emulate (at least in Physics), the intermediary step is often better ammo. When cops started to wear Kevlar vests, did the bad guys immediately go to bigger, more expensive weapons? No, they started to use better ammo that their current weapons could use. (Teflon-coated bullets, a.k.a. "cop-killers".)
Drool wrote:Adding AP rounds would tip things much more in favor of the weapon side.
It is already in the weapon's favor. Otherwise at the end game, weapons fire wouldn't be penetrating that uber-armor the Boss Bad Guy is wearing.
Drool wrote:Defense and Offense traditionally improve in tandem. Someone makes an Awesome Armor, and rather quickly, someone devises something to defeat it. Someone invents an Awesome Weapon, and rather quickly, someone devises a way to mitigate it. It's an uneasy balance, precarious, even. But it's there. It maintains. If we're going to add AP ammunition, then I suppose it's only appropriate that someone start screaming about ceramic strike plates for the body armor. Those are things that exist too, and they're specifically designed to counteract armor piercing rounds.
The weakness of this argument is, "Why does anyone bother to use anything but the BEST armor? Why does anyone use anything less than the BEST weapon against that armor?" Because they can't afford it. So they use the best weapons and armor that they can afford AND is available. So someone may not be able to afford the next tier weapon -- bbbuuuuttttt he _could_ afford to buy more effective ammo. IF it was available.
Drool wrote:And, of course, we sort of already have AP rounds with energy weapons. They're an entire class of weapon designed around enemy armor.
IF they're available. If not, you use the best that is available AND that you can afford.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by SagaDC » September 2nd, 2014, 2:27 pm

randir14 wrote:Last month's patch got rid of the ammo slot in the equipment screen so I don't think different ammo types is going to happen. They probably scrapped the idea along with reloading benches. (There actually used to be a reference to the benches in a previous build, a room in Ag Center triggered the text "you see a workbench in the corner" even though there wasn't one.)
Huh, good catch Randir. I didn't even notice the slot was gone. :P

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Kazuya » September 7th, 2014, 2:19 am

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:You are multiplying where you should be adding. For three Rangers, it wouldn't be 50,000 x 50,0000 x 50,000. It would be 50,000 + 50,000 + 50,000. BIG difference. They don't multiply against each other because they don't interact. Each is a separate calculation for THAT Ranger.
Wrong. Say I can only make 3 different kinds of Rangers: A, B, or C, and I get four of them. According to you that should only be 12 parties, right? Nope.
[...]
That's 12 right there, and I haven't even gotten to the point where the first guy is a B. Do the whole array and you'll find 3x3x3x3 = 81 parties (less a bunch of 'duplicates' such as AABA and ABAA). Now instead of A, B, and C, imagine an alphabet with 50,000 letters. There are billions of potential Ranger parties out there. That doesn't make character generation impossible to understand or even complex at all.
As a former university math tutor, I have to tell you, that you are both wrong. CaptainPatch is closer to the correct solution, so one could argue that his argument still stands, but Zombras approach is somewhat closer on the money, it just has one fundamental flaw, so I still have to hit you both with my math stick. ;)

When you multiply the different rangers, you have to subtract the amount of "duplicates", but they aren't just a bunch, they in fact represent the vast majority of solutions. The correct model to describe the given problem is the counting combination with repetition. In the following formula, "a" represents the number of different ranger types (=3) and "b" the number of slots (=4). So without further ado, here it comes:
Image

And since I already know, that only math nerds will understand me, when they see with the correct formula, here is the full combination list:

01. AAAA
02. AAAB
03. AAAC
04. AABB
05. AABC
06. AACC
07. ABBB
08. ABBC
09. ABCC
10. ACCC
11. BBBB
12. BBBC
13. BBCC
14. BCCC
15. CCCC

On topic: I'm for different ammo types, because it works in JA2 :twisted:

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » September 7th, 2014, 2:53 am

lol, I stand corrected :) I took a discrete math course in college about 20 years ago so I knew something of the method, but couldn't be bothered to do the real research.

I wonder if it would be easy for you ... if you can figure out exactly how many different Ranger parties are possible. With 21 points to spend (since each stat has a minimum of 1) on 7 unique stats, with a maximum of 9 points spent on any one stat, how many letters does that give us in our "alphabet"? And with four Rangers in the party, how many combinations of that alphabet?

I don't know, don't do it if it's a waste of time, but I still think it's going to be over 3.5 million. Anyway, thanks for the correction!
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Kazuya » September 7th, 2014, 4:59 am

First, I should tell, that I haven't played the game yet, becuse I don't want any spoilers, before the game is finished. So I don't know how char creation exactly works. As I undertstand it, you can set the stat from anywhere between 1 to 10 (or is it 9?)
Zombra wrote: I wonder if it would be easy for you ... if you can figure out exactly how many different Ranger parties are possible.
Well, the last time I worked as a math tutor was in 2008, so I'm a bit rusty, but I gave it a shot anyway...

Okay, this is how it went down. At first, I used Rotas Ball-Compartment model. In this model, there are a few different cases. In our case, we need indistinguishable Balls (28 statpoints) and distinguishable compartments (7 stats). Furthermore, there must be at least 1 ball per compartment. Up until this point this is fairly easy. The result is 296010 combinations. The problem is now, that we have to deduct all the cases where a ranger has more that 10 points per stat. This is where it gets quite dificult (at least for me, could be that I can't see the forest, because too many trees are obstructing my view). But since the task was to figure it out and not to provide a formula I wrote a little python script :mrgreen:

Code: Select all

num=0
for a in range(1,11,1):
    for b in range(1,11,1):
        for c in range(1,11,1):
            for d in range(1,11,1):
                for e in range(1,11,1):
                    for f in range(1,11,1):
                        for g in range(1,11,1):
                            if a+b+c+d+e+f+g==28:
                                num+=1
print num
and num is 209525. That's the number of "genetically" different Rangers you can build during character creation.
Zombra wrote:I still think it's going to be over 3.5 million.
Well, it does go over 3.5 million. Barely. Hardly noticable at all.
If you want to get the exact figure, you need to put that number in the formula, which I have given previously, the result is:
eightyquintillionthreehundredfivequadrillionthreehundredseventytrillioneighthundredsixtyone-billionsevenhundredthirtyfivemillioneighthundredfortyseventhousandeighthundredandfifty(point zero) different squad combinations. In numbers:
80 305 370 861 735 847 850

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » September 7th, 2014, 10:12 am

lol, Kazuya, you are a treasure. Thanks for that! I think I can safely say that my point stands! 8-)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » September 7th, 2014, 8:17 pm

And then there's skills... :P
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » September 8th, 2014, 2:28 pm

Zombra wrote:lol, Kazuya, you are a treasure. Thanks for that! I think I can safely say that my point stands! 8-)
Provided you want to include ridiculous combinations like have ONE stat maxed and all of the others minimized.

But if you want to maximize the variety argument, factor in the Skills possibilities as well.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » September 8th, 2014, 2:36 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:
Zombra wrote:I think I can safely say that my point stands! 8-)
Provided you want to include ridiculous combinations like have ONE stat maxed and all of the others minimized.
Do you think the Borderlands guys eliminated "ridiculous combinations" of stats in their 3.5 million claim? Or are 100% of those 3.5 million guns top of the line weapons that every player will want?

Or are you ready yet to drop the whole "Borderlands is complex, people like Borderlands, therefore Wasteland 2 isn't complex enough" argument? That's what started this whole thing.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » September 8th, 2014, 4:47 pm

Well, unlike Attribute mix of one Attribute maxed while all others are minimized, all 3,166,880 weapons combinations are functional. http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/07/ ... t-weapons/. But unlike the SPECIAL creation process, all of the choices are NOT available at the very beginning. Weapons mods mix and match as the player accesses them, so selection boils down to "This is what I have now, and these choices have become available now. Which choice is the 'best' according to MY preferences?" At character creation in WL2, a _huge_ percentage of combinations will be immediately ignored as being pointless or unwieldy. In effect, they were never sensible considerations to begin with.

But the original point that I was making was that splitting a singular ammo type into AP, HP, and general use really isn't all that much of a complication. And it really offers the player choice. If the player feels that it's too much of a complication to consider three types of ammo, he could just concentrate on having ONLY general purpose ammo and he would be EXACTLY where he is now.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » September 8th, 2014, 6:32 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:Well, unlike Attribute mix of one Attribute maxed while all others are minimized, all 3,166,880 weapons combinations are functional.
First: it's impossible to have a 10 and six 1s in Wasteland 2.

Second: every single Ranger build is functional. Some may be non-optimal, but all are functional. Exactly the same as with Borderlands. I actually made a min-maxed character once! Surprise! He performed fine.

Third: even if some builds were non-functional, which they aren't, "functional" Wasteland 2 party builds would still have more possibilities than Borderlands 2 guns even if only one in a billion parties is "functional". So you go ahead and show me 999 million parties that are completely broken and unplayable and I'll start taking this argument seriously.

Still insist that Borderlands is more complicated than Wasteland 2?
Weapons mods mix and match as the player accesses them
Point of order: Borderlands doesn't have mods. You find a gun, you pick it up, done. No mixing or matching.
At character creation in WL2, a _huge_ percentage of combinations will be immediately ignored as being pointless or unwieldy. In effect, they were never sensible considerations to begin with.
Since you never played Borderlands, you are not an expert on Borderlands player behavior. I played it, beginning to end. (Fun game if you like mindless shooting, though it does get a bit repetitive.) Most of the guns I found were thrown away immediately because their stats were inferior to what I already had. By your lights, this makes most guns in Borderlands "non-functional". If you have further confusion about the game, I'd be happy to set you straight on that too. Just ask.
But the original point that I was making was that splitting a singular ammo type into AP, HP, and general use really isn't all that much of a complication.
I'm confused. We're supposed to want more ammo types because more complicated is better, according to you. Now you're saying that ammo types aren't that complicated? So we can just throw the whole Borderlands argument out? Great. Finally.
And it really offers the player choice.
No it doesn't. We've been over this. Armored enemy? AP ammo is not a "choice". It's what you use, and what everyone uses, if they want the enemy dead.
If the player feels that it's too much of a complication to consider three types of ammo, he could just concentrate on having ONLY general purpose ammo and he would be EXACTLY where he is now.
No, he wouldn't, because the entire game would have to be rebalanced around new attack types being available. Unless you're in favor of just throwing them in with zero balance testing and seeing what happens. I'd love to see you make a case for the "no balancing, no iteration" development approach.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » September 8th, 2014, 9:38 pm

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:Well, unlike Attribute mix of one Attribute maxed while all others are minimized, all 3,166,880 weapons combinations are functional.
First: it's impossible to have a 10 and six 1s in Wasteland 2.
Jeez. "Minimized" as in "set as low as it can be set to." Obviously not 1s. One 10 and six 3s. (Or whatever combination the current Attribute points allow for.)
Zombra wrote:Second: every single Ranger build is functional. Some may be non-optimal, but all are functional. Exactly the same as with Borderlands. I actually made a min-maxed character once! Surprise! He performed fine.

And I would hazard that his 10 Attribute was Strength. That way you could use him as a pack mule and not much else. Try it sometime for say Awareness and see how well that works out. Yes, it's quite possible to make a _survivable_ character such as that, because you have three other Rangers to pick up the slack. But definitely not anywhere near "optimal", or even "decent".
Zombra wrote:Third: even if some builds were non-functional, which they aren't, "functional" Wasteland 2 party builds would still have more possibilities than Borderlands 2 guns even if only one in a billion parties is "functional". So you go ahead and show me 999 million parties that are completely broken and unplayable and I'll start taking this argument seriously.
Sure thing. Do have about an eternity or two?

Get real.
Zombra wrote:Still insist that Borderlands is more complicated than Wasteland 2?
If I gave your query the respect it deserves, I'd most likely get banned from the forum.

Could you try to be just a tad more snide, arrogant, condescending, and belligerent? I'm almost getting mixed messages.
Zombra wrote:
Weapons mods mix and match as the player accesses them
Point of order: Borderlands doesn't have mods. You find a gun, you pick it up, done. No mixing or matching.
So, all of those 3,166,880 distinct weapons: Does each have a unique name? Or does it boil down to "Model A with parts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5"?
Zombra wrote:
At character creation in WL2, a _huge_ percentage of combinations will be immediately ignored as being pointless or unwieldy. In effect, they were never sensible considerations to begin with.
Since you never played Borderlands, you are not an expert on Borderlands player behavior. I played it, beginning to end. (Fun game if you like mindless shooting, though it does get a bit repetitive.) Most of the guns I found were thrown away immediately because their stats were inferior to what I already had. By your lights, this makes most guns in Borderlands "non-functional". If you have further confusion about the game, I'd be happy to set you straight on that too. Just ask.
I notice that though you are linking your comment to my statement, you really didn't address the point that I was making. Which was that of all those possible SPECIAL combinations, the vast, overwhelming majority really aren't worth considering for use. Not the same as saying that you _can't_ use them; just that other combinations are significantly more desirable.
Zombra wrote:
But the original point that I was making was that splitting a singular ammo type into AP, HP, and general use really isn't all that much of a complication.
I'm confused. We're supposed to want more ammo types because more complicated is better, according to you. Now you're saying that ammo types aren't that complicated?
In point of fact, it wasn't me that suggested that it would make the game more complicated. That was all you. Of course, adding anything, no matter how trivial, adds at least a smidgen of complication. My view is that the complication effect is negligible. You, otoh, make it sound like it's a deal-breaker.
Zombra wrote:
And it really offers the player choice.
No it doesn't. We've been over this. Armored enemy? AP ammo is not a "choice". It's what you use, and what everyone uses, if they want the enemy dead.
Poppycock. The ammo that is currently being used in the beta is not AP and it's not HP. It's basic middle-of-the-road general purpose ammo. Have ammo split into AP, HP and GP and then using ONLY GP ammo is EXACTLY like now. What you are pointing out is that if AP is available, then suddenly GP ammo is substandard. It isn't. It's precisely what you are mandated to use by the current design. The AP would be superior in performance than GP versus armor. And HP would likewise be superior against soft targets. If someone is going to be so mule-headed as to insist that using anything besides GP "complicates" the game too much, that is that person's choice. Nobody is forcing that person to use AP or HP. But at present, all of us ARE being forced to use GP and only GP.
Zombra wrote:
If the player feels that it's too much of a complication to consider three types of ammo, he could just concentrate on having ONLY general purpose ammo and he would be EXACTLY where he is now.
No, he wouldn't, because the entire game would have to be rebalanced around new attack types being available. Unless you're in favor of just throwing them in with zero balance testing and seeing what happens. I'd love to see you make a case for the "no balancing, no iteration" development approach.
They apparently aren't massively concerned about balancing the final product. Do we even know ALL of the effects of the inclusion of the shrines? Tossing those in for the last patch before release really didn't allow much feedback AND adjustment before release. But, yet again, you seem to think that the inXile developers are incapable of making such a system and also making it balanced. Despite the fact that there are umpty-ump video games that DO use multiple ammo types, going back more than ten years. Are they ALL crap games? You are entitled to your opinion of course, but then so am I. And in my opinion, multiple ammo types are doable and reasonably workable. And my choice would be to use ammo that gets the job done better for a variety of situations.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » September 8th, 2014, 9:53 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:So, all of those 3,166,880 distinct weapons: Does each have a unique name? Or does it boil down to "Model A with parts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5"?
No, Gearbox didn't come up with three million gun names. Since a level 2 "repeater pistol" and a level 3 "repeater pistol" have different stats because of the level discrepancy, they still count as two of those 3,166,880 possible combinations, despite having the same name. There are modifiers ("lacerator" gives a bonus to melee damage, "swatter" has increased accuracy, etc.) but those effects will be represented on the item card.

You said you played Diablo. It's the same thing, except there's no armor added into the mix.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » September 8th, 2014, 10:41 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:Jeez. "Minimized" as in "set as low as it can be set to." Obviously not 1s. One 10 and six 3s. (Or whatever combination the current Attribute points allow for.)
3 in a stat is fine. It's "average" for chrissake.
So you go ahead and show me 999 million parties that are completely broken and unplayable and I'll start taking this argument seriously.
Sure thing. Do have about an eternity or two? Get real.
OK then. How about 10? And make them broken in significantly different ways, since you don't have time to do all 999 million. I bet I can choose one of those 10 parties and beat the bandits at the Radio Tower with them. No Angie.
Still insist that Borderlands is more complicated than Wasteland 2?
If I gave your query the respect it deserves, I'd most likely get banned from the forum. Could you try to be just a tad more snide, arrogant, condescending, and belligerent? I'm almost getting mixed messages.
If you're going to continue supporting a ridiculous argument, I'm going to continue calling you on it. All you have to do is stop trying to prove that Borderlands was more complex than Wasteland 2 because someone said a big scary number, or that Borderlands was somehow successful in ways that W2 should aspire to. All you have to do is drop it.
Point of order: Borderlands doesn't have mods. You find a gun, you pick it up, done. No mixing or matching.
So, all of those 3,166,880 distinct weapons: Does each have a unique name? Or does it boil down to "Model A with parts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5"?
It boils down to Gun #1 that does 80 damage with a 1.4 second reload time, Gun #2 that does 81 damage with a 1.31 second reload time, and so forth. Note that even in this simple example, one is clearly superior, making the other "nonfunctional" in your language.
I notice that though you are linking your comment to my statement, you really didn't address the point that I was making. Which was that of all those possible SPECIAL combinations, the vast, overwhelming majority really aren't worth considering for use.
OK, I'll address it directly now. You say that some combinations of stats in Wasteland 2 are "nonfunctional" (when you really mean suboptimal) and therefore do not belong on the list of possible combinations. In Borderlands, some combinations of stats are equally "nonfunctional", that is to say, suboptimal, and therefore do not belong on that list of possible combinations. Wasteland 2 still has about a million times a million times more party combinations than Borderlands has unique guns.
In point of fact, it wasn't me that suggested that it would make the game more complicated. That was all you. Of course, adding anything, no matter how trivial, adds at least a smidgen of complication. My view is that the complication effect is negligible. You, otoh, make it sound like it's a deal-breaker.
Then what was the point of saying "Borderlands is complicated, and Borderlands sold millions, so we need to make W2 complicated!"? Why did you bring Borderlands up at all if not for that?

Here's the quote, when we were talking about the difference between having one button, having 40,000 buttons, and having the right middle ground of just enough complication, but not too much:
CaptainPatch wrote:How about like Borderlands where you can have over 3.5 million customized weapon combinations? Too complicated? Sold over 2 million copies. So complicated that Borderlands 2 sold over 8.5 million copies.
So there's that. Moving on.
What you are pointing out is that if AP is available, then suddenly GP ammo is substandard. It isn't. It's precisely what you are mandated to use by the current design.
And when the design changes, the design changes. Amazing, isn't it? Moving the goalposts would have an impact on every player. Throw in a +5 Holy Avenger at the beginning of the game and saying, "Don't use it if you don't want to," doesn't make it any less a part of the design. Every player that sees it has a whole new set of choices to make. NOT using it is no longer the "standard" choice.
Nobody is forcing that person to use AP or HP.
When a design gives mechanical rewards for certain behaviors, then yes, that is compulsion.
I'd love to see you make a case for the "no balancing, no iteration" development approach.
They apparently aren't massively concerned about balancing the final product. Do we even know ALL of the effects of the inclusion of the shrines? Tossing those in for the last patch before release really didn't allow much feedback AND adjustment before release.
So your argument is: who cares, balance is crap anyway. Got it.
But, yet again, you seem to think that the inXile developers are incapable of making such a system and also making it balanced.
So you are for changing the design? Then why were you just talking about how it wouldn't change anything? :roll:

And I think they're perfectly capable of it, of course. That still doesn't make it a good idea.
Despite the fact that there are umpty-ump video games that DO use multiple ammo types, going back more than ten years. Are they ALL crap games?
I mentioned some above that did it well ... none that were party-based RPGs. I've yet to hear about a game even vaguely in this format that used ammo types and was better for it. Actually I asked you about it earlier and don't remember getting a response. What games do you think did it well?
And in my opinion, multiple ammo types are doable and reasonably workable.
Of course they're doable and workable. That's never been in dispute. What is in dispute is whether it would add enough to the game to be worth not only the development and balancing time, but the extra hassle on the part of the user.
And my choice would be to use ammo that gets the job done better for a variety of situations.
I would 'choose' that too. In fact I would always choose it, all else being equal. Everyone with a brain in their skull would choose it. When every reasonable person can be expected to make the same choice, can it meaningfully be called a 'choice'? What sort of player do you suppose would deliberately choose to use ammo that doesn't work as well?
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