DIfferent ammo types

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by -Archangel- » August 31st, 2014, 3:19 pm

You would just get one new button than once clicked shows a list of different ammo types near it like a small popup so you can easily click ammo you want without moving mouse much. As you said, they would just have one or two letters on some random icon for ease of identifying.

Two fast clicks would let you change ammo. Setting up default ammo would remove needless ammo management outside combat as well as what is currently needless manual reloading of weapons outside of combat (I hate it when I forget to reload after combat and run into quick next one and find myself low on bullets or out of them).

Additionally this ammo button would be the reload button itself and if you click the button itself twice it just reloads with same ammo it had in it.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 3:28 pm

Ooh, making reload and ammo type the same button, I like it. :)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 3:38 pm

Zombra wrote:So the 'choice' is: slog through a cumbersome interface or be less effective? Sounds like great gameplay to me. :roll:
Zombra wrote:Still not crazy about the extra inventory management, but I could live with it.
Continuing with the melodrama theme....

So, the expansion of ammo types from 1 type to three makes it "cumbersome"? What do we have now, that it isn't already cumbersome? Are we at a tipping point where adding a few more elements takes us from "Fine" to "I can't take it anymore!"?

The current Inventory system may be graphically appealing, but to my tastes it sucks. For one thing, it has infinite capacity despite the fact that it is a representation of the interior of a backpack. The layout makes you have to play Tetris to make everything fit left-to-right. If you try to sort things out so that ammo goes here and clothing goes there and tools go over there, all that sorting gets undone once you close the interface. The next time you open the screen, you will discover that everything got jumbled around to a configuration that the AI thinks is best, rather than to what the player wanted. It gets so that you can't tell at a glance just how many of what you have of a given item. How many 7.62 bullets do I have? Let me look and hope I don't miss any that may have gotten stowed on the other side of that assault rifle.

And having three kinds of ammo for each weapon model is sooooooooo much worse? That's it! I can't take anymore! Cognitive overload!
-Archangel- wrote:You would just get one new button than once clicked shows a list of different ammo types near it like a small popup so you can easily click ammo you want without moving mouse much. As you said, they would just have one or two letters on some random icon for ease of identifying.
I think it was in BG that had a graphic that if you moused over an equipped weapon, it would layout a drop down menu you shout the in-Inventory quantity of each kind of usable ammo for that weapon, with the currently equipped ammo being in the top box. I really liked that system. One click and the ammo swap is complete without having had to go to Inventory. Nor does it clutter up the screen with additional info boxes because they don't appear until the player wants them to appear.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 3:47 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:So, the expansion of ammo types from 1 type to three makes it "cumbersome"?
No, adding unnecessary button presses is what makes it cumbersome.
What do we have now, that it isn't already cumbersome? Are we at a tipping point where adding a few more elements takes us from "Fine" to "I can't take it anymore!"?
Shrug. Again with the "all or nothing". The tipping point is obviously different for every user, but just as obviously, the more you add, the closer you get for everyone involved.

For every additional system proposed, it is reasonable to ask whether it would add enough to the game to be worth the extra work on the part of the user. Ammo types would require higher user input, more inventory management time, and more time in every combat while adding ... ? What? "An armored guy, time to switch to AP ammo?" Thrill, thrill. Not worth it to me.
The current Inventory system may be graphically appealing, but to my tastes it sucks.
I'm not crazy about it either. I do appreciate a lot of the ease-of-use features that have been added though.
For one thing, it has infinite capacity despite the fact that it is a representation of the interior of a backpack.
No. It is an abstraction of x number of bags, backpacks, ox carts, magic carpets, whatever. Some of my Rangers don't even have backpacks on their character models. Nothing about the inventory system is supposed to be a simulation of anything. It is a representation of a game system. That's it.
If you try to sort things out so that ammo goes here and clothing goes there and tools go over there, all that sorting gets undone once you close the interface.
Yeah. Known bug by now, I'm sure. Hope that gets fixed.
The next time you open the screen, you will discover that everything got jumbled around to a configuration that the AI thinks is best, rather than to what the player wanted.
Yeah. I don't think there's any "AI" involved, honestly. Just a side effect of a system not programmed to properly remember where everything is. At this point I'm just glad it doesn't lose stuff.
And having three kinds of ammo for each weapon model is sooooooooo much worse? That's it! I can't take anymore! Cognitive overload!
Ahhh, I was wondering where you were going with this. Is this the camel's backbreaker? Maybe, maybe not. But adding more crap certainly isn't going to help make inventory better, now is it?
It gets so that you can't tell at a glance just how many of what you have of a given item. How many 7.62 bullets do I have? Let me look and hope I don't miss any that may have gotten stowed on the other side of that assault rifle.
If it's already a nightmare to track one type of ammo, having six types of ammo is going to be six times as miserable. Or 36 times, depending on your calculation system. :P
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 4:23 pm

Zombra wrote:If it's already a nightmare to track one type of ammo, having six types of ammo is going to be six times as miserable. Or 36 times, depending on your calculation system. :P
You're right. Totally bollixed. Might as well scrap the whole project and start from scratch.

Or maybe.... just maybe there is the possibility that a future patch could be made that reworks Inventory to something more user-friendly AND simplifies the implementation of more ammo types that avoids requiring that ever so burdensome additional mouse clicks.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 4:32 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:You're right. Totally bollixed. Might as well scrap the whole project and start from scratch.
ALL OR NOTHING! Boy, I sure love all or nothing strawmen. They always represent my point of view so accurately.
Another idea is to not add more things that make it worse. Radical, I know.
Or maybe.... just maybe there is the possibility that a future patch could be made that reworks Inventory to something more user-friendly AND simplifies the implementation of more ammo types that avoids requiring that ever so burdensome additional mouse clicks.
We can hope that inventory will get better, but having more stuff in it will still make it more of a hassle than having less stuff in it (and with all the garbage items we already have, there's no hope of ever having too few items to deal with).

And you can't have an extra system without requiring more user input, unless ammo types change themselves automatically. (If the devs are excited to make a multiple-ammo system that requires zero input from the player, great, I'd say knock yourselves out.) A minimum of user input is ideal of course, but the question still remains: is the added gameplay value enough to make it worth it? If so, why?
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Grimage » August 31st, 2014, 4:54 pm

I will repeat myself, but it may be interesting to give current ammos different stats, and not adding several ammo types for each weapon. No?
Some ammo could be better at tumble/expansion than the other, which seems to be somewhat implemented, but not used in Beta.
Some weapons could be more appropriate on low armor opponents (because of the ammo) and thus make them more viable in front of the almighty penetration.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 5:02 pm

Grimage wrote:I will repeat myself, but it may be interesting to give current ammos different stats
Yeah, not sure if it's weapon type or ammo type that does it, but different weapons should certainly have better impact vs. armor or not. I'm pretty sure this is already the case as there is a stat that makes Energy Weapons better vs. armor. Shotguns should have high damage but low penetration, etc.

Basically I agree with you. :)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 5:07 pm

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:You're right. Totally bollixed. Might as well scrap the whole project and start from scratch.
ALL OR NOTHING! Boy, I sure love all or nothing strawmen. They always represent my point of view so accurately.
Another idea is to not add more things that make it worse. Radical, I know.
Mind-boggling. Are you so dense that you don't recognize sarcasm? The follow-up paragraph pretty much demonstrated an openness towards compromise solution. But you seem soooooo wrapped up in your view of "No! multiple ammo types! No! Not ever! Can't be done! Shouldn't even be talking about it!" vehemence that you apparently couldn't see the sarcasm for what it was.

What amazes me is that there are no lack of games already in existence, many of them well received, that managed to integrate the concept of multiple ammo types well. Many of them are even party-oriented. The way you carry on, it's like you think the inXile developers are incapable of doing something similar, so they shouldn't even try.
Grimage wrote:Some weapons could be more appropriate on low armor opponents (because of the ammo) and thus make them more viable in front of the almighty penetration.
So, it's simpler to change weapons than it is to change ammo?
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 5:17 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:Mind-boggling. Are you so dense that you don't recognize sarcasm?
The sarcasm was apparent ... what wasn't apparent is that evidently it wasn't directed towards me? So yeah, I guess I don't get what you were trying to say. If that makes me dense, OK, I'm dense. :)
The follow-up paragraph pretty much demonstrated an openness towards compromise solution. But you seem soooooo wrapped up in your view of "No! multiple ammo types! No! Not ever! Can't be done! Shouldn't even be talking about it!" vehemence that you apparently couldn't see the sarcasm for what it was.
I addressed the follow-up paragraph on its own merits, and in a similar spirit of understanding. The fact that I didn't agree to it as a perfect solution doesn't mean I didn't appreciate it (or that I missed the sarcasm in that paragraph too). I still think that adding more things is bad unless the added gameplay value is worth it.
What amazes me is that there are no lack of games already in existence, many of them well received, that managed to integrate the concept of multiple ammo types well. Many of them are even party-oriented. The way you carry on, it's like you think the inXile developers are incapable of doing something similar, so they shouldn't even try.
Nope. Again, all I care about is that the gameplay value be shown to be worth the extra hassle for the user. Right now, I don't see it. In inXile wants to add ammo types and an do it in a way that they think will be super fun, I'm all for it ... but they will have to sell me better than "use AP rounds against armor guy! Fun!" to convince me that I will enjoy combats taking longer and requiring me to click more buttons representing non-decisions every time a new enemy type shows up.
So, it's simpler to change weapons than it is to change ammo?
Well ... we already have weapon swapping and different weapon types in the game. I'd say that yes, it's much simpler to stick with that than add new systems to do essentially the same thing.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 5:45 pm

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:What amazes me is that there are no lack of games already in existence, many of them well received, that managed to integrate the concept of multiple ammo types well. Many of them are even party-oriented. The way you carry on, it's like you think the inXile developers are incapable of doing something similar, so they shouldn't even try.
Nope. Again, all I care about is that the gameplay value be shown to be worth the extra hassle for the user. Right now, I don't see it. In inXile wants to add ammo types and an do it in a way that they think will be super fun, I'm all for it ... but they will have to sell me better than "use AP rounds against armor guy! Fun!" to convince me that I will enjoy combats taking longer and requiring me to click more buttons representing non-decisions every time a new enemy type shows up.
This seems to be the sticking point. If it is that, as you suggest, adding ammo types does NOT make the game "more fun" _here_, then it follows that if in all those other games that DO use multiple ammo types took out that aspect of their designs, it would simplify the mechanics and thereby "make the game more fun". The next syllogism would take it that ALL of those other games "got it wrong". At least in regards to the use of multiple ammo types.

So, can you point at _any_ other games that does utilize multiple ammo types that did it "right"? Used multiple ammo types and still kept that element "fun"? And if you do manage to think of one, explain why it is that they could have gotten it right, but inXile can't?
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by -Archangel- » August 31st, 2014, 5:53 pm

Except different weapons could use different ammo and than in addition to managing multiple weapons you need to manage multiple ammo as well because of those weapons. Then as you carry around other weapons for sale you need to guess each time which one is yours.
Then you need to mod your secondary weapon as well. What if you have multiple weapons that look the same in inventory?

That inventory management is a bigger mess than just having multiple types of ammo and having nice UI that supports that.

Multiple ammo types will also create a bigger chance of ammo starvation (of certain type) and players needing to make tough decisions. By what people are saying, ammo is not a problem in the current version (we have to see the full version as well).
And with one type of ammo they cannot really make it scarce as players need to play and finish the game but with multiple ammo types they can make another type of ammo really rare (like incendiary ammo).

Ammo also lets you customize your weapons more and it can be done during combat unlike weapon mods that you only do outside of combat, ammo acts almost like active combat ability.

Also since most weapons share basic ammo type with other weapons creating variations of basic ammo makes each weapon using that basic ammo type more interesting while not needing to modify the weapons themselves.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 6:47 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:So, can you point at _any_ other games that does utilize multiple ammo types that did it "right"? Used multiple ammo types and still kept that element "fun"? And if you do manage to think of one, explain why it is that they could have gotten it right, but inXile can't?
Well, I believe I mentioned System Shock 2 upthread. It did a great job with ammo types, for a couple of reasons.

First and foremost, scarcity of all ammo types was a real issue in SS2. It was a single-character game with a very limited scope, and the design was therefore able to control player resources and expenses very tightly, and did so deliberately, as an explicit part of the design. It raised exactly the kind of questions Archangel mentioned in his earlier (compelling) post about how ammo types enhance decision making. Wasteland 2, on the other hand, is a sprawling RPG with tons of variables and ammo under every bush, and there is no indication so far that scarcity will be an issue in any way; nor, seemingly, was it ever a real design goal in the first place. No scarcity, no reason to care about what type of bullet I'm spending.

Secondly, SS2 was a single-character game. The controls per character were far more complex than those in Wasteland 2, but nowhere near seven times as complex. By comparison, SS2 is still a simpler game in terms of control. So the 'cost' of adding this element was negligible compared to its solid gameplay benefit.

The Resident Evil games also come to mind. The reason ammo types work so well in those games (in addition to scarcity) is because of the extremely limited inventory space. Just carrying a certain type of ammo is an interesting decision. No such luck in Wasteland 2; you can carry tons of stuff around, so of course you'll load up on all ammo types. Why wouldn't you? No decision there. Loading different ammo types was a bit of a pain in RE, but still worth it because the gameplay was so beautifully designed.

As far as party-based tactical games go? No, I can't really think of one that did it right.

In the Infinity Engine games, I had different stacks of arrows and I more or less equipped them at random - tooltipping around all those little unsorted pictures was too much of a pain in the ass. Same for Temple of Elemental Evil (though happily ToEE had a looser focus on loot and inventory) - as long as my guy has some kind of arrow equipped, I stop thinking about it. I didn't really care if they were +1 Arrows or Acid Arrows ... though I admit that sometimes I would scrounge for the +2s if I knew a really big fight was coming.

Jagged Alliance 2? Great game, horribly topheavy, blunderingly overwrought inventory system. Just trying to get the best gun to each of 50 mercenaries scattered across the country was an Herculean task in itself, never mind loading the right kind of ammunition for each gun at the right time (not to mention it was never clear how much body armor an enemy had until you shot him a few times). Dealing with all that crap was the reason I never even finished JA2, despite my great love for the series.

I don't know. Maybe you can think of some party CRPGs where ammo types were a blessing?
-Archangel- wrote:Except different weapons could use different ammo and than in addition to managing multiple weapons you need to manage multiple ammo as well because of those weapons. Then as you carry around other weapons for sale you need to guess each time which one is yours.
Then you need to mod your secondary weapon as well. What if you have multiple weapons that look the same in inventory?

That inventory management is a bigger mess than just having multiple types of ammo and having nice UI that supports that.
Well yeah, if you have characters carrying more than 2 weapons each, this would be a problem. I don't see this as realistic though. YMMV!
Multiple ammo types will also create a bigger chance of ammo starvation (of certain type) and players needing to make tough decisions. And with one type of ammo they cannot really make it scarce as players need to play and finish the game but with multiple ammo types they can make another type of ammo really rare (like incendiary ammo).
Yeah. Scarcity is an issue that goes along with this one. I think it would be pretty weird and change the whole tone of the game if they tried to make it more of an ammo scrounging thing than it is now. Also it would be just plain hard to do considering how open the world is. Really in big RPGs like this, I think scarcity is almost impossible to really pull off. I'd support them if they tried, but I'd have serious doubts.

Also, while the idea of only having 20 incendiary bullets in the world is cool, it's not cool enough to build a whole system around. Better to just have 20 fire rockets or something that work with an already existing skill.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 7:38 pm

At last, some clarity.
Zombra wrote:Wasteland 2, on the other hand, is a sprawling RPG with tons of variables and ammo under every bush, and there is no indication so far that scarcity will be an issue in any way; nor, seemingly, was it ever a real design goal in the first place. No scarcity, no reason to care about what type of bullet I'm spending.
I seem to recall that some time back, I mightily argued for ammo scarcity. I also seem to remember that I was shouted down by pretty much all of the forum regulars. So if there isn't any ammo scarcity factors, it isn't because I didn't try.
Zombra wrote:As far as party-based tactical games go? No, I can't really think of one that did it right.
And ^^that^^ is pretty much what I expected the case to be. If no one _ever_ got party-based multiple ammo types right, then talking about implementing here is pretty much wasting everybody's time. Right?
Zombra wrote:Maybe you can think of some party CRPGs where ammo types were a blessing?
What was your opinion of the Baldur's Gate and Ice wind Dale games with nearly a dozen different kinds of arrows for bows and likewise for slings? Should have been streamlined to just one missile type? Tolerable? Or entirely acceptable?
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Woolfe » August 31st, 2014, 7:57 pm

Zombra wrote:Ooh, making reload and ammo type the same button, I like it. :)
Isn't that what I said? :(
Woolfe wrote:In combat your character just selects the one they want then hits reload. Bam you reload with the new ammo type.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 8:16 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:I seem to recall that some time back, I mightily argued for ammo scarcity. I also seem to remember that I was shouted down by pretty much all of the forum regulars. So if there isn't any ammo scarcity factors, it isn't because I didn't try.
I salute you. I don't remember being part of that conversation. I would have been on your side. Unless I was and I didn't. I like scarcity.
Zombra wrote:As far as party-based tactical games go? No, I can't really think of one that did it right.
And ^^that^^ is pretty much what I expected the case to be. If no one _ever_ got party-based multiple ammo types right, then talking about implementing here is pretty much wasting everybody's time. Right?
If you want to draw that conclusion, you're welcome to (and if we all want to drop the subject, great). I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea, but so far I don't see how it will be fun. And yes, if it's never been done well in a party-based game before, that may be an indicator that it would be difficult to do well in a party-based game.
What was your opinion of the Baldur's Gate and Ice wind Dale games with nearly a dozen different kinds of arrows for bows and likewise for slings? Should have been streamlined to just one missile type? Tolerable? Or entirely acceptable?
I ... actually just talked about those in my previous post. The Infinity Engine games. Go back up and check it out. Meet you back down here later :)
Woolfe wrote:
Zombra wrote:Ooh, making reload and ammo type the same button, I like it. :)
Isn't that what I said? :(
Hey, I came here to argue with Cap. It's not my fault if you had good ideas before I got here :)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » August 31st, 2014, 8:46 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:An "Awesome!" weapon was boring because ten minutes later you find a better one that made Awesome look like yesterday's news. (Which it was, except it was more like, "That was sooooo 10 minutes ago!")
Well, you answered the question, but missed the point. But it seems pretty clear that you weren't overwhelmed with the volume of choices. Likewise, Borderlands.
You're sort of making my point for me. The large majority of players apparently don't care if they have to mess around with umpteen factors relating to their weapons and armor.
Not really. Borderlands, Diablo and other numbers games (and Elder Scrolls games*) have a huge pile of choices, but they're generally one and done. You get a new weapon or armor, compare the numbers and then you're done. You eventually reach the point that anything short of rare/unique/super special is just vendor trash (they also tend to have ways to bleed off your money, too; I was usually dead broke in Diablo and Torchlight).

What you don't have to do, is run those numbers during every single fight. Nor do you have to concern yourself with cost effectiveness. You also don't have turns which you're then wasting to swap out in the middle of combat. And, again, it's generally just "which number is bigger" as opposed to, "well, I won't do much damage if I don't use AP rounds here, but I only have 14 AP rounds left, and the last time I was at the Ranger Center, they were all out and I don't know if I want to waste these AP rounds on this thug when I might need them for a robot later, but Smitty over there is pretty wounded so maybe I should end this fight ASAP and hope I can loot some AP rounds, or at least a couple medpacks."

It's the frequency of the checking, the general situation in which you're checking, and the inventory juggling required after you've finished checking. And the whole question of if you're adding gameplay value, or just random, nebulous realism.


*Amusingly, Morrowind is orders of magnitude "worse" than Oblivion or Skyrim because there's so many more "slots" as well as different layering rules. I still remember my whacked out berserker who ran around wearing leather pants under ebony leggings under an ankle-length skirt. But that skirt had a massive Jump enchantment, so he was gonna wear it, dammit. With his mighty Frog Skirt and his gloves (under his ebony gauntlets) that jacked up athletics, he just went over the Ghost Fence.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Woolfe » August 31st, 2014, 10:09 pm

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:I seem to recall that some time back, I mightily argued for ammo scarcity. I also seem to remember that I was shouted down by pretty much all of the forum regulars. So if there isn't any ammo scarcity factors, it isn't because I didn't try.
I salute you. I don't remember being part of that conversation. I would have been on your side. Unless I was and I didn't. I like scarcity.
Pretty sure I was against it in the general sense. IE it didn't make logical sense to me that something as important as "how to make bullets" would be lost.

I can't recall what I was back then, but today I am in the common ammo types, no worries, uncommon ammo types should be .. well ... uncommon... :D It could even have been used as a method to have powerful weapons that only had limited utility, as you don't have huge amounts of ammo for them.
Woolfe wrote:
Zombra wrote:Ooh, making reload and ammo type the same button, I like it. :)
Isn't that what I said? :(
Hey, I came here to argue with Cap. It's not my fault if you had good ideas before I got here :)[/quote]

Don't mistake argumentativeness with being wrong tho... I did that once.. to my shame :oops:

Whilst I don't agree with Scarcity, I think the Ammo types is not a bad thing, and as I said, relatively easy to do. :D
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » September 1st, 2014, 12:16 am

Zombra wrote:I ... actually just talked about those in my previous post. The Infinity Engine games. Go back up and check it out. Meet you back down here later :)
I pretty much never pay close attention to what drives a program beyond the name of the program. That is, I have always thought of the BG games as being BG and never as Infinity Engine. So, my apologies for not recognizing the connection.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled skirmish. ;)
Drool wrote:What you don't have to do, is run those numbers during every single fight. Nor do you have to concern yourself with cost effectiveness. You also don't have turns which you're then wasting to swap out in the middle of combat. And, again, it's generally just "which number is bigger" as opposed to, "well, I won't do much damage if I don't use AP rounds here, but I only have 14 AP rounds left, and the last time I was at the Ranger Center, they were all out and I don't know if I want to waste these AP rounds on this thug when I might need them for a robot later, but Smitty over there is pretty wounded so maybe I should end this fight ASAP and hope I can loot some AP rounds, or at least a couple medpacks."
I get the sense that you are of the opinion, "If it's something I need, it should _never_ be scarce!" In a post-Apocalypse environment where there are waves of raiders swarming between more civilized communities. (Which are usually not all that civilized.) Somewhere in that environment, there's someone cranking out ammo in industrial quantities. Enough such that pretty much so that no one seems to have a compunction about burning through ammo like there's no tomorrow.

But, like I said, I got shouted down, so then the "solution" would be to make EVERY ammo type be available in quantities similar to what the singular ammo types are now. There. No sweating over the lack of AP rounds at the various vendors; it's always in supply.

As for the ammo selection during a firefight, where's the dithering? If you already know what kind of armor the target is wearing, then you already know which is the more appropriate ammo choice. No need to run the numbers. If you do NOT know the target's armor type, it would be a guessing game, with no need to run the numbers anyway.

But I'm wondering: If there is no variety in ammo, why is there variety in armor? For every Defense, there is usually an appropriate Offense. If this, then that. But if there is only ONE Offense, there's no ability to use something that maximizes penetration tougher armors. (Other than by using different weapons.
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Priest4hire
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Priest4hire » September 1st, 2014, 12:57 am

Far as I can tell, the reason for the different sets of armour is to push the RPG treadmill. You get to new area, encounter tougher foes, get better weapons and armour to compensate. Rinse and repeat. The problem with different ammo types, if they're common, is that they become a rote, mindless action necessary to be optimum in combat. It's the kind of thing a smile bot could handle. If enemy armour is greater than x, then switch to y ammo.

How about make the alternate ammos very, very rare but also very cool. For example, perhaps there's a few boxes of 7.62x51mm SLAP (Saboted light armour piercing) rounds around. They're rare even now due to how expensive they are to make. And that's with the full backing of modern industry. Good luck making them in the backyard ammo shop. Then the choice to switch ammo would be significant, but not made on a regular basis. Rather, they'd be the rounds you break out for the really hard fights.

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