DIfferent ammo types

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 30th, 2014, 10:36 am

CaptainPatch wrote:
Zombra wrote:Wasteland 2 is not a military simulation. :)
Not military in the sense of professional soldiers fighting professional soldiers. But it IS primarily a combat sim; just look at how much time is spent in combat versus EVERYTHING else. Pretty close to half of all gameplay is combat. With that kind of emphasis on combat, it seems that there should be more detail for combat.
I can go along with that (except for the part about it being a "combat sim". A combat game and a combat sim are not the same thing). The bottom line is that there's a balance to be struck between too many details and not enough. Between the added fiddling in combat itself and the extra player encumbrance of even more inventory management, I feel that ammo types fall squarely on the side of "too much". I'd say that inventory is pretty bloated already. YMMV.

Let's also remember that during the Kickstarter, it was noted that there would be a lot of combat in the game, and effort would be made to make sure it didn't bog down too much. <---- important
Drool wrote:Juggling a dozens of different rounds is a pain in the ass.
Dozens if you figure several weapons for ALL of the team members. For the individual character, it's just AP, HP, and something middle-of-the-road for each weapon.
Good point. Where a single character is concerned, this level of complexity makes sense. So ammo types would be cool in, say, a single-character RPG.

When you're dealing with 7 PCs ... it's a little much.
The REAL pain is trying to make sure there is an adequate supply of each type for each weapon for each party member. Buuuuttttt that's the nature of a party-based game.
Agree that inventory management is a thing, and to be expected ... that doesn't imply that it should be as horrendously cumbersome and convoluted as is imaginable. There's a middle ground.
If you are going to be concerned with there being too many ammo types, then you may as well be concerned about there being too many weapon types. May as well go generic.
You keep making these "all or nothing" arguments. Last time it was "If combat isn't going to be ridiculously complicated, you may as well have only one button!" I could just as easily make the argument: "If combat is going to be somewhat complex, you might as well have 40,000 buttons on the screen!" Please stop. There's a middle ground.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 30th, 2014, 4:46 pm

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:
If you are going to be concerned with there being too many ammo types, then you may as well be concerned about there being too many weapon types. May as well go generic.
You keep making these "all or nothing" arguments. Last time it was "If combat isn't going to be ridiculously complicated, you may as well have only one button!" I could just as easily make the argument: "If combat is going to be somewhat complex, you might as well have 40,000 buttons on the screen!" Please stop. There's a middle ground.
How about like Borderlands
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where you can have over 3.5 million customized weapon combinations? Too complicated? Sold over 2 million copies. So complicated that Borderlands 2 sold over 8.5 million copies.

Of course, to be honest, those games only had ONE ammo type for each of the seven weapon types.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 30th, 2014, 5:20 pm

Your point being what, exactly? :lol:
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 30th, 2014, 7:34 pm

Zombra wrote:Your point being what, exactly? :lol:
If people in general don't want their games to be unduly over-complicated, how does a game with 3.5 million customized weapon combinations do so well? You would think that 50-100 would be overkill. I would think they would spend much of their time dithering over "This one or that one?" But apparently complication isn't all that much of a deal-breaker.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by dorkboy » August 30th, 2014, 7:44 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:
Zombra wrote:Your point being what, exactly? :lol:
If people in general don't want their games to be unduly over-complicated, how does a game with 3.5 million customized weapon combinations do so well? [...]
By not having different ammo types? ;)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » August 30th, 2014, 8:49 pm

Have you actually played Borderlands or the sequel?

There's 3.5 million weapon combinations because they're procedurally generated. Borderlands is a numbers game, just like Torchlight and Diablo. When you get a new weapon, you look at the numbers and use the one with the bigger numbers. The names are amusing sometimes, but they really don't matter unless you want to be able to guess at the numbers by just reading the name.

And generally, that's not worth the effort. I don't need to memorize that all Maliwan weapons have elemental effects, because the item description tells me. In fact, it doesn't just tell me that it's elementally aligned, it tells me what element, what % chance of inflicting elemental damage, how much elemental damage, and what general effects the element has:

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Why are there 3.5 million? Because the numbers would be different if it was level 49. Or 51. Or 12. Or if it was "Reliable Trance" instead of apt. Or if it was a different element. But regardless of any of that, it's still going to use "SMG ammo". I look at the numbers once and know if I need to switch. There's not much strategy involved beyond "Is X greater than Y?"
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 30th, 2014, 10:24 pm

Drool wrote:Have you actually played Borderlands or the sequel?
Nope. I found that 3.5 million rather daunting.
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Drool wrote:Why are there 3.5 million? Because the numbers would be different if it was level 49. Or 51. Or 12. Or if it was "Reliable Trance" instead of apt. Or if it was a different element. But regardless of any of that, it's still going to use "SMG ammo". I look at the numbers once and know if I need to switch. There's not much strategy involved beyond "Is X greater than Y?"
Buuutttttt, you have 7 characteristics that can range up or down. So the questions would be, "Which is 'better'? More damage, but less accuracy? Bigger magazine size, but slower rate of fire? Greater burn damage, but lower chance to ignite? On a 7 x 7 array, you're going to have 42 + or - evaluations to do. (Remove the 7 cross-indices where an attribute is compared to itself.)

Just think how much simpler the selection process would be if there was only ONE weapon model for each type of weapon! (Modified by the character's level apparently.)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by SniperHF » August 30th, 2014, 10:47 pm

Drool is correct, the complexity of Borderlands item system is overblown. Actually it's also not really that important. The major choice is what type of weapon you want.

After that even choosing between a few different assault rifles for example is pretty pointless. Sure one might be marginally better but when you find 3 new rifles they'll all match the level of the area where they were found. Thus the damage will be reasonably close due to their goofy scaling system.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by luoshuigui » August 30th, 2014, 10:51 pm

In BL2 the damage types are kinda pointless since explosive damage owns everything there's not really any reason to choose fire or ice other than flavor.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » August 30th, 2014, 11:29 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:Buuutttttt, you have 7 characteristics that can range up or down. So the questions would be, "Which is 'better'? More damage, but less accuracy? Bigger magazine size, but slower rate of fire?
In theory, but not in practice. By and large, damage is about all you care about unless your character build has very specific needs (eg: in BL2, an "Anarchy" build of the Mechromancer is all about low magazine size, high fire rates, and high reload rates), or you're dealing with a specific weapon niche (accuracy is vastly more important on a sniper rifle than a SMG).

But still, generally, damage is the thing you care most about. Maybe fire rate or reload speed, but those are going to be personal preference.
luoshuigui wrote:In BL2 the damage types are kinda pointless since explosive damage owns everything there's not really any reason to choose fire or ice other than flavor.
Again, depends. Explosive is pretty much the last thing you want on an Anarchy build. And I think it doesn't work with Zer0's B0re skill either. Personally, I prefer corrosive.
CaptainPatch wrote:Nope. I found that 3.5 million rather daunting.
Well then, have you played Diablo or Torchlight? They both do the same thing for weapons (and equipment! and dungeons!), they just call them broadswords instead of sub-machine guns.

Hell, how many different kinds of weapons can you make in Skyrim? Sure, there may only be three different swords, but there's numerous materials, and then there's honing and enchanting to pile on top of that. Do you take 5 ice damage for 5 seconds with 100 charges or 6 ice damage for 5 seconds with 86 charges? Or do you wait until you've raised your Enchanting skill to try again or do you use a larger soul gem and while you're at it, maybe you should get a couple Fortify Enchanting potions to squeeze out a few more charges.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 30th, 2014, 11:47 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:Buuutttttt, you have 7 characteristics that can range up or down. So the questions would be, "Which is 'better'? More damage, but less accuracy? Bigger magazine size, but slower rate of fire? Greater burn damage, but lower chance to ignite? On a 7 x 7 array, you're going to have 42 + or - evaluations to do. (Remove the 7 cross-indices where an attribute is compared to itself.)
Now take that number and square it. Then square it again. That's how many different evaluations you have to do when making a party of four Desert Rangers. There are WAY more than a crummy 3½ million combinations there. And that's not counting skill selection ... that's another 29⁶ combinations, per character, so square that and square it again ... then multiply that by your previous figure. 3½ million is looking pretty damn sad, isn't it?
------------------
In other news, Borderlands gameplay was about as complex as bouncing a ball, including picking out weapons. If that level of depth is your ideal for Wasteland 2, they're going to have to include "dunce" caps with all physical copies, and you need to be arguing for them to remove most of the game, certainly not to add anything else.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 12:02 am

Drool wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:Nope. I found that 3.5 million rather daunting.
Well then, have you played Diablo or Torchlight?
D1 with mixed feelings. Decided to give D2 a chance, but that put me off enough that I didn't even bother with D3. Just got sick the outrageously common magical weapons and armor. Definitely "Monty Haul" games. Even the most "valuable" items effectively had no value because a character was practically drowning in wealth for the entire game. An "Awesome!" weapon was boring because ten minutes later you find a better one that made Awesome look like yesterday's news. (Which it was, except it was more like, "That was sooooo 10 minutes ago!")
Drool wrote:Hell, how many different kinds of weapons can you make in Skyrim? Sure, there may only be three different swords, but there's numerous materials, and then there's honing and enchanting to pile on top of that. Do you take 5 ice damage for 5 seconds with 100 charges or 6 ice damage for 5 seconds with 86 charges? Or do you wait until you've raised your Enchanting skill to try again or do you use a larger soul gem and while you're at it, maybe you should get a couple Fortify Enchanting potions to squeeze out a few more charges.
You're sort of making my point for me. The large majority of players apparently don't care if they have to mess around with umpteen factors relating to their weapons and armor.

Oops.
Zombra wrote:Now take that number and square it. Then square it again. That's how many different evaluations you have to do when making a party of four Desert Rangers. There are WAY more than a crummy 3½ million combinations there. And that's not counting skill selection ... that's another 29⁶ combinations, per character, so square that and square it again ... then multiply that by your previous figure. 3½ million is looking pretty damn sad, isn't it?
Just where are you getting all of those squares? WL2 has DAM, Range, Wt, magazine, Penetration, and AP. The 3 weapons mods is an additional array that somewhat complicated by the availability of certain mods for this weapon, but not that weapon. Factor the number of available weapons for each type of weapon; probably fewer than ten of each type. Times the number of types. You'll end up with a variety of weapons that numbers no more than a couple thousand combinations. There will be umpty-ump thousand comparison calculations, but those are comparisons, not distinct weapons.

A Performance bonus based on a character's skill level does NOT change a weapon combination. The weapon is still the same; it's the character that alters its capabilities.

But like Drool, you make my point for me. Players aren't being put off by all the performance comparisons they have to make when deciding which weapon to go with. Why would they be soooo put off by having to decide which of THREE ammo types to be using at any given moment? It's practically a no-brainer calculation: Heavy armor, use AP. NO armor, use HP. Anything in between use the middle-of-the-road ammo.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 12:23 am

Oops. Delete.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Woolfe » August 31st, 2014, 1:16 am

I was thinking it would be simple to do. You just reload to the different ammo type. So have a button which selects the ammo type available. (Assume AP, HE, IN, etc etc)

In combat your character just selects the one they want then hits reload. Bam you reload with the new ammo type.

As for management, thats not that complex, it is simply another stack. Annoying if you have lots of ammo stacks, but then you need to choose whether you want Ammo A or B or just lots of Ammo A.

As for 1 type dominating, you could still do that, but make it hellishly rare to find. Everything else is balanced differently.

I don't see this as particularly onerous, or complex.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 8:10 am

CaptainPatch wrote:Just where are you getting all of those squares?
If there are 50,000 different permutations for building a single Ranger (there are more), then building two different Rangers have 50,000 x 50,000 = 2½ billion permutations. x50,000 again for three Rangers. x50,000 yet again for four Rangers.

The point is that big numbers do not a complex game make. In Borderlands' case, the opposite is laughably true.
But like Drool, you make my point for me. Players aren't being put off by all the performance comparisons they have to make when deciding which weapon to go with. Why would they be soooo put off by having to decide which of THREE ammo types to be using at any given moment? It's practically a no-brainer calculation: Heavy armor, use AP. NO armor, use HP. Anything in between use the middle-of-the-road ammo.
1) It's not a question of making the decision. It's a question of having at least two more button presses every time I take a shot at a new target. It's a question of tripling my inventory management time. Borderlands had extremely simple gameplay despite its phat loot table. Pretty much two buttons: shoot and reload. It was a console game for chrissake.

2) Since it's such a "no-brainer" anyway, what value is added? When the choice is obvious ("Armor! I'll switch to AP!"), the choice is meaningless. The only value added that I can see is the simulationist joy of "oh boy! REALISM!!" And as I've said about a dozen times, realism for its own sake is fine as long as it does not interfere with gameplay. Making me do a bunch of extra shit just for the sake of it is stupid.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by -Archangel- » August 31st, 2014, 1:52 pm

Zombra wrote: 2) Since it's such a "no-brainer" anyway, what value is added? When the choice is obvious ("Armor! I'll switch to AP!"), the choice is meaningless. The only value added that I can see is the simulationist joy of "oh boy! REALISM!!" And as I've said about a dozen times, realism for its own sake is fine as long as it does not interfere with gameplay. Making me do a bunch of extra shit just for the sake of it is stupid.
Actually there is more choice than you think.
1) Enemy has some armor but not much. Do I waste AP ammo on him?
2) I am low on AP ammo. I am about to fight raiders with some armor but I am on a quest to fight robots. Do I use AP ammo now or save it for those with even more armor?
3) I have some incendiary ammo. Are these enemies vulnerable to those? Do I risk it?
4) I only have few bullets of Cold Tracer glowing ammo. Do I use it to help my team mates hit the same target better?

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 31st, 2014, 2:19 pm

Zombra wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:Just where are you getting all of those squares?
If there are 50,000 different permutations for building a single Ranger (there are more), then building two different Rangers have 50,000 x 50,000 = 2½ billion permutations. x50,000 again for three Rangers. x50,000 yet again for four Rangers.
You are multiplying where you should be adding. For three Rangers, it wouldn't be 50,000 x 50,0000 x 50,000. It would be 50,000 + 50,000 + 50,000. BIG difference. They don't multiply against each other because they don't interact. Each is a separate calculation for THAT Ranger.
Zombra wrote:
But like Drool, you make my point for me. Players aren't being put off by all the performance comparisons they have to make when deciding which weapon to go with. Why would they be soooo put off by having to decide which of THREE ammo types to be using at any given moment? It's practically a no-brainer calculation: Heavy armor, use AP. NO armor, use HP. Anything in between use the middle-of-the-road ammo.
1) It's not a question of making the decision. It's a question of having at least two more button presses every time I take a shot at a new target. It's a question of tripling my inventory management time. Borderlands had extremely simple gameplay despite its phat loot table. Pretty much two buttons: shoot and reload. It was a console game for chrissake.
Now who's being melodramatic. Switching ammo types is a choice, and a realistic one at that. You don't have to swap from AP to HP if you think it's too much bother. Just accept the fact that you won't do as much damage against an unarmored target. And it doesn't triple inventory management; it triples the ammo inventory management, at most. When it comes to explosive ordnance in particular, having different ammo types is highly desirable. There are times when you really want the BIG boom of HE, and other times where incendiary is the way to go. Having an one-size-fits-all-situations approach can seriously affect a character's combat efficiency.
Zombra wrote:2) Since it's such a "no-brainer" anyway, what value is added? When the choice is obvious ("Armor! I'll switch to AP!"), the choice is meaningless. The only value added that I can see is the simulationist joy of "oh boy! REALISM!!" And as I've said about a dozen times, realism for its own sake is fine as long as it does not interfere with gameplay. Making me do a bunch of extra shit just for the sake of it is stupid.
It's a no-brainer because it's kind of obvious (to most people) that something labeled "armor-piercing) is going to do more damage against an armored target than ammo that is NOT labeled "armor-piercing". And if you know that hollow points do more damage against unarmored targets than ammo that is NOT labeled "hollow point", it's an automatic comparison.

I'll be polite and NOT describe what I see.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 2:32 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:You are multiplying where you should be adding. For three Rangers, it wouldn't be 50,000 x 50,0000 x 50,000. It would be 50,000 + 50,000 + 50,000. BIG difference. They don't multiply against each other because they don't interact. Each is a separate calculation for THAT Ranger.
Wrong. Say I can only make 3 different kinds of Rangers: A, B, or C, and I get four of them. According to you that should only be 12 parties, right? Nope.

My party composition can be
AAAA
AAAB
AAAC
AABA
AABB
AABC
AACA
AACB
AACC
ABAA
ABAB
ABAC

That's 12 right there, and I haven't even gotten to the point where the first guy is a B. Do the whole array and you'll find 3x3x3x3 = 81 parties (less a bunch of 'duplicates' such as AABA and ABAA). Now instead of A, B, and C, imagine an alphabet with 50,000 letters. There are billions of potential Ranger parties out there. That doesn't make character generation impossible to understand or even complex at all.

The point is that Borderlands isn't a complicated game just because it has variables :geek:
Switching ammo types is a choice, and a realistic one at that. You don't have to swap from AP to HP if you think it's too much bother.
So the 'choice' is: slog through a cumbersome interface or be less effective? Sounds like great gameplay to me. :roll:
It's a no-brainer because it's kind of obvious (to most people) that something labeled "armor-piercing" is going to do more damage against an armored target than ammo that is NOT labeled "armor-piercing". And if you know that hollow points do more damage against unarmored targets than ammo that is NOT labeled "hollow point", it's an automatic comparison.
Right. Exactly my point. So how exactly does this become any kind of interesting decision?
-Archangel- wrote:Actually there is more choice than you think.
1) Enemy has some armor but not much. Do I waste AP ammo on him?
2) I am low on AP ammo. I am about to fight raiders with some armor but I am on a quest to fight robots. Do I use AP ammo now or save it for those with even more armor?
3) I have some incendiary ammo. Are these enemies vulnerable to those? Do I risk it?
4) I only have few bullets of Cold Tracer glowing ammo. Do I use it to help my team mates hit the same target better?
Now you're talking. These are interesting decisions. Interesting enough, and common enough in gameplay, to justify inclusion of extra baggage in the inventory system and slowing down combat? Not for me to say. I can live without them, but I can see where you're coming from. Good post. :)

Although thinking about it more, a lot of these decisions seem to come down to scarcity and conservation. So far I haven't seen any evidence that scarcity is a thing at all in W2. If it is, hallelujah, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by -Archangel- » August 31st, 2014, 3:02 pm

Baldur's Gate had different arrow types and three ammo slots. Changing ammo was one right click.
Fallout had different ammo types but I didn't change it often there.

Divinity Original Sin has different ammo, and you put it on quickslot bar and use it directly from there.

WL2 can make an ammo button where it directly shows all different ammo types you have in inventory for currently equipped weapon. Clicking one that is different than currently used one spends same amount of AP like reloading a weapon would. By rightclicking one of the choices you set default ammo that your ranger switches into as soon as combat ends.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 31st, 2014, 3:10 pm

-Archangel- wrote:WL2 can make an ammo button where it directly shows all different ammo types you have in inventory for currently equipped weapon. Clicking one that is different than currently used one spends same amount of AP like reloading a weapon would. By rightclicking one of the choices you set default ammo that your ranger switches into as soon as combat ends.
Sounds great for ease of use.

I'm not crazy about having 3+ more buttons on screen at all times showing various ammo types. And I definitely don't want to have the conversation about revising the UI again :lol: I'd also be a little worried about clarity - how long would it take me to learn that red meant incendiary, blue was AP and green was HP? I guess the buttons could just say AP HP IN or ST (standard) right on them.

Overall, yeah, aside from UI concerns, that could work.

Still not crazy about the extra inventory management, but I could live with it.
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