DIfferent ammo types

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luoshuigui
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DIfferent ammo types

Post by luoshuigui » August 26th, 2014, 7:50 pm

It's confirmed by the official manual today, ammo types are in

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In one of their promotion videos, they clearly stated there will be different ammo types to play around such as hollow-point bullets, armor-piercing bullets, etc, in the Beta i didnt see any of that, did they scraped the idea? Or you'll get access to bullet modification technology in California?



Start at 15:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmGthYqTbo
Last edited by luoshuigui on September 9th, 2014, 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by luoshuigui » August 26th, 2014, 10:58 pm

Anyone? Would love it if someone from the dev team can give a clear answer.

I like the idea that California is a different game compare to Arizona. You get down the chopper thinking you "get" the game already, then BOOM! Table turned game changed, you think you're rich, sorry Californians dont use Arizona scrap, you think you have enough ammo, but then they introduce you to the ammo modification system, you think you are respected, but no one there knows that Rangers are.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 26th, 2014, 11:12 pm

If a game is going to have Armor of several different grades of protection, AND there will be extensive use of firearms, then it stands to reason that armor-piercing ammo should be a factor. And if there is going to be AP ammo to deal with armor, then there should also be hollow-points or something else that is equally effective against unarmored targets.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by luoshuigui » August 27th, 2014, 12:05 am

But when you hover the cursor over ammo there's this text popup says "Expansion 1.00x"

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 27th, 2014, 9:28 am

luoshuigui wrote:But when you hover the cursor over ammo there's this text popup says "Expansion 1.00x"
I wonder if that's the Red Boots DLC? :lol:
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by luoshuigui » August 28th, 2014, 4:00 pm

i think they most certainly planned something, it's driving me insane wondering what it is

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by SagaDC » August 28th, 2014, 8:52 pm

Different ammo types appeared until about three or four versions of the Beta ago, but they were mechanically identical to the basic types of ammunition (ie, the Damage Bonus, Expansion, and Penetration attributes were all identical). Once they started polishing things up, the AP and HP ammo stopped showing up, and some of the "generic" ammo types were given a slight renaming. The impression I get, especially due to the radio silence from the Devs on the matter (I've brought it up several times over the past couple of months), is that ammo types were quietly removed from the game and will not be present in the final version. I suspect that there was some kind of mechanical issue, since "ammo stacks" and "active ammo slots" and the like have been problematic since Day 1.

Of course, I would be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong.

Regardless, the basic mechanics should be in place for modders (much like with Traits or Stealth), so I'm sure we'll see some other folks working on implementing it once the game goes live.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Bosk » August 28th, 2014, 9:58 pm

The game definitely needs Vampires as an excuse to let us carve crosses into our bullets and dip them in holy water.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 29th, 2014, 10:44 am

Switching ammo types in combat is a pain in the ass. Not to mention making inventory management 3x as obnoxious. Quietly removed? Hallelujah.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 29th, 2014, 11:06 am

Zombra wrote:Switching ammo types in combat is a pain in the ass. Not to mention making inventory management 3x as obnoxious. Quietly removed? Hallelujah.
It _should_ be a pain in the ass. Swapping out one type for the other is not instantaneous; it takes time (AP). It's the price to be paid if a player doesn't want to be wasting hollow points bouncing off a heavily armored target, or having his armor-piercing punching through meaty targets without doing much damage.

The more tactical stuff that gets taken out of a game, the more abstract combat becomes. Might as well reduce it to one button push to determine winners, losers, resource expenditure, and damage sustained. Certainly would make the game move along more quickly.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 29th, 2014, 11:14 am

Wasteland 2 is not a military simulation. :)
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by dorkboy » August 29th, 2014, 11:19 am

@CaptainPatch
Since you're already seeing enemy armour value during combat (or even prior to), then fairly insignificant resource management is all it would be. Would that really change anything, tactically speaking, apart from spending your first turn (or if you're the circumspect type who Walks on Maps (tm), spending the "turn" before combat) switching ammo types?
Not unless encounters were designed with armour-wise radically different enemies attacking simultaneously.

Different penetration and expansion values are to some extent covered by weapon types and individual weapons, and this includes the tactical bit just as much as ammo types would, I think.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Grimage » August 29th, 2014, 3:43 pm

You are talking about different types of ammunition for the same weapon (IE AP/HP). What about different stats for each already existing amunition? Expansion seemed an interesting ammo stat because it allowed more nuance. Penetration Is currently too determinant in weapon efficiency.
(Example) Small caliber ammo and shotgun shells could have more expansion making them more efficient on low armor targets.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Drool » August 29th, 2014, 8:30 pm

Juggling a dozens of different rounds is a pain in the ass.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple different types for shotguns. Or least slugs.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Crosmando » August 29th, 2014, 8:33 pm

Drool wrote:Juggling a dozens of different rounds is a pain in the ass.
It wouldn't be as bad if their was some button in the inventory interface to change ammo type your character is using.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Zombra » August 29th, 2014, 9:10 pm

Crosmando wrote:
Drool wrote:Juggling a dozens of different rounds is a pain in the ass.
It wouldn't be as bad if their was some button in the inventory interface to change ammo type your character is using.
Actually, I'm reminded of System Shock 2. There was a hotkey to change ammo type. Poof! Just like that. The downsides: it took half a second (real-time) to reload the new ammo type, and more importantly conservation of resources was a real thing in SS2. Ammo types definitely enhanced the experience because of the type of game it was.

To echo dorkboy's pertinent observation (not a reply to you Cros) I don't relish the idea of having 7 characters each carrying around 6 different stacks of ammo (for their main and secondary weapons), and manually checking and changing each one's loadout at the start of every fight.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by luoshuigui » August 29th, 2014, 10:12 pm

SagaDC wrote:Different ammo types appeared until about three or four versions of the Beta ago, but they were mechanically identical to the basic types of ammunition (ie, the Damage Bonus, Expansion, and Penetration attributes were all identical). Once they started polishing things up, the AP and HP ammo stopped showing up, and some of the "generic" ammo types were given a slight renaming. The impression I get, especially due to the radio silence from the Devs on the matter (I've brought it up several times over the past couple of months), is that ammo types were quietly removed from the game and will not be present in the final version. I suspect that there was some kind of mechanical issue, since "ammo stacks" and "active ammo slots" and the like have been problematic since Day 1.

Of course, I would be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong.

Regardless, the basic mechanics should be in place for modders (much like with Traits or Stealth), so I'm sure we'll see some other folks working on implementing it once the game goes live.
I'd be very disappointed if they did nothing in the later half of game to expand the combat mechanic.

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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Crosmando » August 29th, 2014, 10:57 pm

Honestly, it depends if different ammo types have both advantages and disadvantages, or if it's just more expensive ammo that does more damage/higher AP, in which case it just becomes the only type of ammo you use once you have enough money. If the different ammo types are just flat out superior to regular ammo, instead of being just as viable as regular ammo but better and worse against certain enemies, why bother? Does the game really need more ways to increase weapon damage?
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by Grohal » August 29th, 2014, 11:39 pm

In Wasteland ammo SHOULD be scare - they didn't quite do this until now. All the more different ammo types... so it doesn't bother me.
Plus: As Drool already wrote switching ammo in battle is a pain in the ass - instead in Wasteland 2 you switch weapons. Your shotgun doesn't go through the heavy armored raider? Switch to your 2 handed hammer and crack the nut.
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Re: DIfferent ammo types

Post by CaptainPatch » August 30th, 2014, 9:50 am

Zombra wrote:Wasteland 2 is not a military simulation. :)
Not military in the sense of professional soldiers fighting professional soldiers. But it IS primarily a combat sim; just look at how much time is spent in combat versus EVERYTHING else. Pretty close to half of all gameplay is combat. With that kind of emphasis on combat, it seems that there should be more detail for combat.
dorkboy wrote:Not unless encounters were designed with armour-wise radically different enemies attacking simultaneously.
Which, if you stop to think about it, should be the case. There are no standing armies with uniform loadouts or even uniforms. Each person is responsible for his own mix of armor and weapons, and all of those vary widely. So going into combat with a large-ish group of foes will involve a range of armor that needs to be penetrated. Hollow points may work quite well against that sneak thief trying to hide in the shadows as he tries to maneuver around your flank. But against that guy in steel armor, you may as well be throwing rocks.
Drool wrote:Juggling a dozens of different rounds is a pain in the ass.
Dozens if you figure several weapons for ALL of the team members. For the individual character, it's just AP, HP, and something middle-of-the-road for each weapon. The REAL pain is trying to make sure there is an adequate supply of each type for each weapon for each party member. Buuuuttttt that's the nature of a party-based game. If you are going to be concerned with there being too many ammo types, then you may as well be concerned about there being too many weapon types. May as well go generic. All you really need is a melee weapon, rapid-fire close range weapon, rapid-fire long range weapon, and accurate long range weapon. There. Doesn't that make things less of a pain in the ass?
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