Weapon balance and headshots and you

Check here to discuss Wasteland 2 gameplay topics. Please avoid spoilers in thread titles.

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

Post Reply
User avatar
tuluse
Adventurer
Posts: 535
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 8:29 am

Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by tuluse » August 23rd, 2014, 12:41 pm

So thinking about the announcement that headshots are going to be added to Wasteland 2, I was thinking about how this could help differentiate weapons and be an interesting component instead of a Fallout style "always use this" option.

So the first thing I thought was that it should only apply to certain weapons. Pistols, assault rifles, and sniper rifles (maybe energy weapons, idk about that). This would make pistols feel much better and buff them since they are the only weapon you could get a headshot with at point blank. However, this might make snipers even more powerful when they are already over-powered. So I have a suggestion for nerfing snipers--well two. First one is that you should only be allowed to fire a sniper when crouched or behind cover, or at least have a huge penalty like -50% to hit while standing. The second is that there should be a penalty for firing a sniper after moving in the same turn.

With these changes, snipers will still be really powerful when you get to use them, but it will decrease the chances you get to use them. It will feel very satisfying when you do create the situation where you get that perfect sniper shot. It will also increase tactical depth since protecting the sniper user and setting him up to get his shots will be very important.

This is copy-pasted from a suggestion I just made on centercode. What do you guys think?

luoshuigui
Scholar
Posts: 120
Joined: April 6th, 2012, 7:08 pm

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by luoshuigui » August 23rd, 2014, 1:12 pm

Snipers overpowered? What? :shock:
They are not as bad as Heavy Weapons and Shotguns yes, but overpowered?Really? Their damage output are so pathetic it's almost sad, the Headshot mechanic is a much needed buff to Snipers.
The M4, an early accessible (Tier 2)assault rifle can burst a steady 60+ damage, for snipers you'll have to wait until you get a Bullpup(Tier 3) to do 60+ damage, and that has to be a critical shot! Their damage per AP is just not there.

Chaoslord
Initiate
Posts: 16
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 9:43 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Chaoslord » August 23rd, 2014, 3:21 pm

Whoah there! Snipers has been nerfed a lot in the latest patch (like quite a bit). As snipers basic crit chance isn't too hight to start with and the base damage is not too great either (at tier 6 the best sniper does like 40-60 damage with only a 2x crit multiplier and use a rare type of ammo) and I could see sniper being outperformed in most areas at teir 6 by assault rifles and energy weapons I would say that a nerf to snipers is the least thing they need. What they would need Is a buff to damage and maybe a slight increase in crit chance could make them great again and they don't need additional penelties than what they allready have
Chaos is merely a tool, a tool which I wield very well

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6210
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Zombra » August 23rd, 2014, 5:11 pm

I do like the idea of only applying them to certain weapon types (and single shots onlyl). A headshot with a shotgun or SMG burst seems pretty weird.

As for weapon balance, I don't know anything about it as I haven't played the latest build really at all. Trusting inXile to make it good.
Image

User avatar
tuluse
Adventurer
Posts: 535
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 8:29 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by tuluse » August 23rd, 2014, 7:20 pm

luoshuigui wrote:Snipers overpowered? What? :shock:
They are not as bad as Heavy Weapons and Shotguns yes, but overpowered?Really? Their damage output are so pathetic it's almost sad, the Headshot mechanic is a much needed buff to Snipers.
The M4, an early accessible (Tier 2)assault rifle can burst a steady 60+ damage, for snipers you'll have to wait until you get a Bullpup(Tier 3) to do 60+ damage, and that has to be a critical shot! Their damage per AP is just not there.
The Karabiner can do 26 damage with a 2.4 multiplier. The M24 does 40 damage with a 2.4 multiplier.

The massive range means you can much more easily kill enemies while keeping yourself safe. I basically have every non-sniper ambush anyone who gets close while picking off enemies with the snipers. So you have to take that advantage into account.

Note, I'm not suggesting lowering sniper damage, just making so you have to meet certain conditions to really take advantage of them (or have a really high skill).

I wouldn't be opposed to similar restrictions on the assault rifle or maybe partially in effect. Lets say the assault rifle only had a massive standing penalty if you went for a head shot.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9757
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Drool » August 23rd, 2014, 8:03 pm

tuluse wrote:(maybe energy weapons, idk about that)
I would say not energy weapons. Considering how they work, you probably wouldn't want to aim for the head anyway; there's likely more armor on the torso.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

luoshuigui
Scholar
Posts: 120
Joined: April 6th, 2012, 7:08 pm

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by luoshuigui » August 23rd, 2014, 8:16 pm

tuluse wrote:
luoshuigui wrote:Snipers overpowered? What? :shock:
They are not as bad as Heavy Weapons and Shotguns yes, but overpowered?Really? Their damage output are so pathetic it's almost sad, the Headshot mechanic is a much needed buff to Snipers.
The M4, an early accessible (Tier 2)assault rifle can burst a steady 60+ damage, for snipers you'll have to wait until you get a Bullpup(Tier 3) to do 60+ damage, and that has to be a critical shot! Their damage per AP is just not there.
The Karabiner can do 26 damage with a 2.4 multiplier. The M24 does 40 damage with a 2.4 multiplier.

The massive range means you can much more easily kill enemies while keeping yourself safe. I basically have every non-sniper ambush anyone who gets close while picking off enemies with the snipers. So you have to take that advantage into account.

Note, I'm not suggesting lowering sniper damage, just making so you have to meet certain conditions to really take advantage of them (or have a really high skill).

I wouldn't be opposed to similar restrictions on the assault rifle or maybe partially in effect. Lets say the assault rifle only had a massive standing penalty if you went for a head shot.
Still, their damage per AP is just not on par with ARs, if you wanna put crits in the calculation is even worse for snipers, since each burst shot have separate crit chance, for 5.56mm guns snipers can barely hold their ground against ARs, but for 7.62 weapons is just... come on, AK47 does 34 damage for each 2 AP on normal hit, a sniper can not touch that. The silver lining for snipers is that they do have a high damage per bullet rating, but as in the current beta, we're swimming in bullets, ammo conservation is not ever an issue.

Wait a minute, maybe it's not that snipers are bad, it's just ARs are freaking Oped as f$%k. :idea:

User avatar
Bosk
Acolyte
Posts: 64
Joined: August 24th, 2014, 8:25 pm
Location: Down Under

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Bosk » August 26th, 2014, 3:44 pm

Wouldn't it sort of make sense that Sniper Rifles would be by far the easiest weapons to achieve headshots with? Much easier to place a bullet in the skull of your enemy looking down a high-powered scope than burst firing an SMG or assault rifle from the hip for instance.

My suggestion would be to lower the base damage of Sniper Rifles drastically but give them the highest crit and headshot potential of any weapon. If you think about the way these weapons work it makes sense the player would probably want to try for a headshot almost every time they fire one.

finkypie
Initiate
Posts: 7
Joined: August 26th, 2014, 2:55 pm

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by finkypie » August 26th, 2014, 4:17 pm

Headshots with ranged weapons seems to further disadvantage melee weapons.

(maybe they have headshots too? but that seems weird to knife someone in the head for more damage).

User avatar
dorkboy
Master
Posts: 1772
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 10:37 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by dorkboy » August 27th, 2014, 1:18 am

@Bosk
If the player will likely go for a head shot every time they fire a weapon, then it doesn't really make a lot of sense to have a separate head shot option.
marmelade & jam

User avatar
Crosmando
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5136
Joined: January 3rd, 2013, 8:48 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Crosmando » August 27th, 2014, 1:26 am

But it would be better to have a "Strike Weak Spot" option for melee.
Matthias did nothing wrong!

SagaDC
Global Moderator
Posts: 3504
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 5:51 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by SagaDC » August 27th, 2014, 4:52 am

luoshuigui wrote:Still, their damage per AP is just not on par with ARs, if you wanna put crits in the calculation is even worse for snipers, since each burst shot have separate crit chance, for 5.56mm guns snipers can barely hold their ground against ARs, but for 7.62 weapons is just... come on, AK47 does 34 damage for each 2 AP on normal hit, a sniper can not touch that. The silver lining for snipers is that they do have a high damage per bullet rating, but as in the current beta, we're swimming in bullets, ammo conservation is not ever an issue.

Wait a minute, maybe it's not that snipers are bad, it's just ARs are freaking Oped as f$%k. :idea:
Just to put this in perspective real quick, the AK-47 is a Tier 4 weapon, the Karabiner is a Tier 2 weapon. They're not really comparable, especially since most Tier 4+ weapons still use unbalanced placeholder attributes. A more accurate comparison would be a Tier 2 assault rifle such as the FAMAS (12-17 damage per shot) or the M4 (18-24 damage).

-Archangel-
Adventurer
Posts: 984
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 4:06 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by -Archangel- » August 27th, 2014, 6:26 am

We have yet to see how this will be implemented but if this will be the only option I would rather see them implement a targeted shot that hits a random body part an applies one of the already implemented status effects in addition to normal damage.

User avatar
Bosk
Acolyte
Posts: 64
Joined: August 24th, 2014, 8:25 pm
Location: Down Under

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Bosk » August 29th, 2014, 7:58 pm

dorkboy wrote:@Bosk
If the player will likely go for a head shot every time they fire a weapon, then it doesn't really make a lot of sense to have a separate head shot option.
I'm not sure I agree. Headshots probably should be a massive roll of the dice for burst weapons, after all if you're aiming for the head then the odds suggest many of your shots will fly over your enemy's head, especially if he's moving.

Sniper rifles & pistols on the other hand are sort of designed to deliver single bullets to precise locations, and in gameplay terms if they don't offer greater accuracy than burst weapons (reflected by reduced headshot difficulty) then why pack a pistol over an SMG for example? I'm not sure that I see ammo conservation as a strong enough argument unless it winds up being a heck of a lot more expensive & scarce than in the beta.

If on the other hand the game did a better job of modelling the inherent inaccuracy of firing a burst weapon on full auto then maybe I'd argue otherwise, but right now if its as easy to land a full burst from an AK47 on my target as it is a lone bullet from the same gun, then there needs to be more incentive not to resort to spray and pray when you take the pray out of the equation. Making it easier to land headshots with single-shot weapons balances the ledger without having to up pistol & sniper bullet damage to unrealistic levels to compensate.

finkypie wrote:Headshots with ranged weapons seems to further disadvantage melee weapons.

(maybe they have headshots too? but that seems weird to knife someone in the head for more damage).
I guess this is why a full-blown 'called shot' system would be ideal. Melee weapons are ideally suited to breaking arms and crippling legs.

A cheap & dirty implementation would be for melee weapons to inflict "fatigue" damage, reducing the movement speed of the target.

Militant
Scholar
Posts: 120
Joined: September 28th, 2013, 10:42 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Militant » August 29th, 2014, 8:11 pm

finkypie wrote:Headshots with ranged weapons seems to further disadvantage melee weapons.

(maybe they have headshots too? but that seems weird to knife someone in the head for more damage).

ummm really? So, getting stabbed in face is just as bad as getting it in the arm?

And melee... lead pipe to the arm or to the head? 1 of those locations is going to knock you out, and 1 is just going to hurt..

User avatar
dorkboy
Master
Posts: 1772
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 10:37 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by dorkboy » August 29th, 2014, 8:51 pm

@Bosk
That's all very fine and good for burst weapons. But why make it a separate "Head shot" option (for single shot weapons) if you're only going to be using that instead of the not-a-head-shot option?

I agree with burst accuracy issue, though. My suggestion would be to ramp up the chance of friendly fire - for all ranged weapons, but even more for bursts.

Haven't tested the machineguns. Is there really full auto in the game?
marmelade & jam

luoshuigui
Scholar
Posts: 120
Joined: April 6th, 2012, 7:08 pm

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by luoshuigui » August 29th, 2014, 10:04 pm

SagaDC wrote:
luoshuigui wrote:Still, their damage per AP is just not on par with ARs, if you wanna put crits in the calculation is even worse for snipers, since each burst shot have separate crit chance, for 5.56mm guns snipers can barely hold their ground against ARs, but for 7.62 weapons is just... come on, AK47 does 34 damage for each 2 AP on normal hit, a sniper can not touch that. The silver lining for snipers is that they do have a high damage per bullet rating, but as in the current beta, we're swimming in bullets, ammo conservation is not ever an issue.

Wait a minute, maybe it's not that snipers are bad, it's just ARs are freaking Oped as f$%k. :idea:
Just to put this in perspective real quick, the AK-47 is a Tier 4 weapon, the Karabiner is a Tier 2 weapon. They're not really comparable, especially since most Tier 4+ weapons still use unbalanced placeholder attributes. A more accurate comparison would be a Tier 2 assault rifle such as the FAMAS (12-17 damage per shot) or the M4 (18-24 damage).
I was comparing AK47 to SR2000, both T4 weapons both uses 7.62 nato.

User avatar
Bosk
Acolyte
Posts: 64
Joined: August 24th, 2014, 8:25 pm
Location: Down Under

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Bosk » August 30th, 2014, 5:58 pm

dorkboy wrote:@Bosk
Haven't tested the machineguns. Is there really full auto in the game?
Some of the Rangers in the Ranger Citadel are carrying SAW machineguns if you get the urge to try one out before release.

Riffraff
Initiate
Posts: 11
Joined: May 3rd, 2014, 6:19 am

Re: Weapon balance and headshots and you

Post by Riffraff » September 1st, 2014, 7:56 am

Headshot, eyyyyy! I like it!!! Combat in this game has turned in to the same click and shoot over and over( for me at least). The combat system seems to be rally lacking in the choices-department, so whatever gets added of "features or/or perks" is great in my book.
Guessing this feature is gonna be a crit for acc/chance to hit thing?
I would really like the headshot to be more of a "aimed shot" for different effects on target though( less mobillity, unable to use gun/granade, less acc,and good stuffs like this, but HEY,i will take whatever can bring some depth in to the combat.

Sidenote...
I wish that there were perks tied to weapons and weapon-skills tough. E.g. shotguns could have a knockdown or "expose target" perk, heavy could have a suppression effect or "sprayNpray for AOE, sinper/singel shot could have the "aimed" and so on....

OHHHHhh the posibilities :D

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests