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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 12:21 pm
by Drool
Zombra wrote:Deconstructor / +25% more Weapon Parts gained
Dear god... imagine the amount of money that would net you in Arizona...

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 12:54 pm
by PizzaSHARK
Pawner and Junk Diver do horrible things together. It's the only reason I could ever see taking points in Barter, given how absolutely horrible that skill is otherwise. You can easily get $200-$300 from selling junk when you make a pit stop by the vendor when you're in a major dungeon (Ag Center in particular, since virtually every enemy will drop some kind of junk that can proc the bonus junk), adding an extra 20% on top is pretty incredible.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 1:14 pm
by SagaDC
Drool wrote:
Zombra wrote:Deconstructor / +25% more Weapon Parts gained
Dear god... imagine the amount of money that would net you in Arizona...
Yup. Being a massive looter, I took that one pretty early. I'm about two-thirds of the way through Arizona right now (paused in the middle of Titan Valley), and I currently have 20,000 scrap. I scrap almost every weapon that I don't intend to use (aside from brawling weapons, which can't be scrapped), and with the deconstructor perk you can regularly get about 10-15 weapon parts per weapon (unless you're unfortunate enough to actually get a usable weapon mod).

The vendor at Ranger Citadel pays a premium of 15 scrap per weapon part. This appears to be a flat amount that is not affected by the bartering skill or other perks, so it guarantees that you'll get 750 scrap per stack of fifty weapon parts.

It is worth noting that this approach is only really viable until you hit Titan Valley or so. At that point, the Tier 3 weapons are often worth more than the weapon parts you would get for breaking them down. So Deconstructor only really pays off in the early game, and pays off a lot less once you progress to the latter half of the game (ie, when you can no longer access the vendor at Ranger Citadel who pays a higher rate for them).

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 3:06 pm
by PizzaSHARK
Note that your chances of getting parts instead of mods are best with low WS skill.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 4:05 pm
by Bullet2head
Zombra wrote:My General Skill ratings are published. Thanks for joining me in this thread, friends :)
As a thing with your knowledge perks, tactical positioning works from the "sides" too. You needn't be directly behind somebody, just off to a side. Sometimes. It's a little wonky.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 5:21 pm
by PizzaSHARK
Bullet2head wrote:
Zombra wrote:My General Skill ratings are published. Thanks for joining me in this thread, friends :)
As a thing with your knowledge perks, tactical positioning works from the "sides" too. You needn't be directly behind somebody, just off to a side. Sometimes. It's a little wonky.
Yeah, makes me wish for an XCOM like system when it's abundantly clear when you're flanking someone - shield is red if they're covered, it's yellow if they're flanked. Just one more reason I wish devs would copy XCOM's combat :p

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 6:23 pm
by Zombra
Bullet2head wrote:As a thing with your knowledge perks, tactical positioning works from the "sides" too. You needn't be directly behind somebody, just off to a side. Sometimes. It's a little wonky.
Updated my description. Thanks :)

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 6:56 pm
by Palegod
PizzaSHARK wrote:Note that your chances of getting parts instead of mods are best with low WS skill.
I find that I get parts about 90% of the time regardless of what the pop-up box says, and if anything it's gotten worse (since I want mods) the more I raise the skill.

--------------------------------

Also, regarding Toaster Expert in the OP, it basically adds the loot of a safe to whatever is normally in the toaster. Not sure how it determines what tier items are in it, but it's always a trinket, some ammo, maybe a gun, maybe some junk. Seems worth it if you take it very early on before you start opening [m]any toasters, but the longer you wait the more pointless it becomes. If you use Ralphy as your toaster repair mule, you should almost certainly give it to him at L8 imo.

And about On the Mend, that only works for healing items the medic uses on himself, right? I also assume it's medic stuff only, and doesn't affect how much HP surgeon kits restore when they revive someone. If those things are true, it doesn't seem all that great a perk to me.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 9:00 pm
by Zombra
Palegod wrote:And about On the Mend, that only works for healing items the medic uses on himself, right? I also assume it's medic stuff only, and doesn't affect how much HP surgeon kits restore when they revive someone. If those things are true, it doesn't seem all that great a perk to me.
My assumption is that it's whenever they use medical items on anyone - if it's only one oneself, then that would downgrade it to Plain, Dog Ugly :)

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 11:12 pm
by Palegod
Yeah, you're right. I just tested it with pain pills. 12 con healed before, 14 con healed with the perk, same amounts on both the medic and other targets.

"Whenever you get sick, you tend to patch up just a bit quicker than everybody else." coupled with a rather vague benefit line had me worried that it was crap.

Surgeon items appear to be unaffected. Too bad, I wish there were more perks with cross-skill effects.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 18th, 2015, 11:18 pm
by Zombra
Oh good! So On The Mend is still good to take. Thanks for testing :)

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 19th, 2015, 12:17 am
by DampMarsupial
I think weathered is decent. Not a high priority in the early game, but in California when crits start flying around more consistently it can really help to keep a ranger standing an extra turn.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: October 19th, 2015, 8:29 am
by PizzaSHARK
DampMarsupial wrote:I think weathered is decent. Not a high priority in the early game, but in California when crits start flying around more consistently it can really help to keep a ranger standing an extra turn.
It will probably outclass Hardened for later game things, but you'll have perk points enough for both, so why not get both? Slicerdicers easily crit upwards of 90 damage on their buzzsaw melee - Weathered would reduce that to 77, while Hardened presumably wouldn't reduce it at all (due to Slicerdicers having high armor pen.)

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: December 14th, 2015, 3:38 pm
by Myrth
PizzaSHARK wrote:It will probably outclass Hardened for later game things, but you'll have perk points enough for both, so why not get both? Slicerdicers easily crit upwards of 90 damage on their buzzsaw melee - Weathered would reduce that to 77, while Hardened presumably wouldn't reduce it at all (due to Slicerdicers having high armor pen.)
Not really. DC changes how Armour Class works. Now it's flat table instead of formula - each point of AC above enemy penetration is roughtly 20% damage reduction. If the penetration is 6 points lower than AC, the attack will deal ZERO damage - a feat possible only when you pick Hardened.

Either way, a single point of AC more provides with 5% more damage dampering than the Weathered perk. And said perk works only on crits, while higher AC works all the time. After all, we are talking about 20% damage reduction of all attacks vs 15% reduction of crits. Given how crits are pretty much inflated normal attacks, it means we are having rare, 6-7% damage reduction pitted against 20% reduction of all damage, all the time. And just to remind you all - energy weapons were overhauled, so it's not the AC that matters but if equipped armour is conductive or not. And perk-based 1 AC is outside of any equation.
Late-game counter against crits? Precision shots, obviously! They can mess up enemies so much they will be busy killing each other and barely hitting wide side of the barn, rendering the danger of crits to non-existing.

Hardened is probably one of the most game-breaking of all perks, if not outrightly the most powerful one. And it's just 1 AC for free...

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: December 14th, 2015, 5:03 pm
by Juris
I don't think Hardened is game breaking. Most enemies in the late game have enough armor penetration to do full damage unless you're wearing heavy armor (even with Hardened), and heavy armor is conductive.

Perk combinations I've found work really well:

1) Low AP bladed weapon
2) Bloodthirsty
3) Psychopath (quirk)

Basically Blade - works better in light armor with Tinker perk and 'backup' heavy weapon skill because all the good heavy armor perks are in Blunt

1) Sniper
2) Deadeye
3) Brittle Bones(quirk)

By far the most kills in the party - two shots a round with the Anti-materials rifle. No need to move so the quirk's downsides are irrelevant

Thief:
1) Give thief character the 'no fail' mechanical repair perk to give character a second chance after a botched lockpick or safecrack

Things I want to try:

Blunt weapon character with Mechanical Repair/Weaponsmithing to reduce energy weapon damage and increase Heavy Armor by an additional point. However, I'd still want to take Hard Ass because Bloodthirsty is just too good to pass up.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: December 15th, 2015, 5:52 am
by Myrth
Juris wrote:Most enemies in the late game have enough armor penetration to do full damage unless you're wearing heavy armor (even with Hardened), and heavy armor is conductive.
True, but you first must get to the end stage of the game. Meaning you've got a huge benefit in early and mid game.
In early game enemies almost don't crit, hell, it's "good" if they are able to hit you on regular basis. And their penetration is very low, so you can benefit easily from having higher AC.
In mid-game, you would normally start having a dilema - wearing light armour that is increasingly insufficient, or start wearing not-so-good mid-game heavy armour that is barely better, but comes with penalties. Doubly so when you want to benefit from Tinkerer perk. Hardened extends lifespan for light armour well into mid-stage California, while normally light armour would be pretty much obsolete the moment you land there.

That's why it's gamebreaking - it synergise with everything else to create a nifty combo that lasts well till final stages of the game, where armour is useless regardless if you are wearing light or heavy, so by then there is no difference (unless you've got a character wearing pseudo-chitin combined with Hardened). But before the final? Well then, Hardened is the king.

Edit
Bloodthirsty/Psychopath combo works wonders with SMGs, making them suddenly very potent. With a bit of luck you can gain additional burst in the turn, not just single AP

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: December 22nd, 2015, 6:48 pm
by Marionettetc
Hardened isn't game-breaking, it just means that with it and the level appropriate heavy armor a character doesn't auto die from one hit on supreme jerk. Weathered, while not overwhelming alone - is meant to be taken with hardened along with the rest of the defensive perks. Contextually, game bonuses are always better than in a vacuum.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: December 22nd, 2015, 11:58 pm
by Myrth
Hardened makes light armour work as heavy armour in Arizona, without ANY penalties- so you are now protected as if wearing heavy armour, but cheaper, lighter, non-conductive (a non-issue in AZ, but still) and without any effect on your Speed or Strength requirements. That's "not game-breaking"? Especially when combined with cheap-as-dirt Tinkerer (while Reinforced Plating takes 8 of Weaponsmithing and that's the skill usually my primary sniper, aka the last person getting hit, got)? Hell, Hardened makes Spectrum assault vest worth it's price and a viable option in late game, instead of sub-par weight-AC-price-penalties ratio of Power Armor, which only stops sucking when combined all possible perk bonuses to AC: Hardened, Reinforced Plating and Self Defense. A combo you can only get with very specific build and on single character, making PA still suck on everyone else.
As far as my experience tells, armour that triggers AC threshold/is conductive is absolutely not worth it in the late game, where enemies armed with quality energy weapons will fry your ass in single turn of "overarmoured" or conductive in effect. Bonus points when it also comes with other penalties or is just prohibitely expensive to outfit entire team (yeah, Pseudo-chitin, I'm looking at you).

In short - DC only strenghtened the supremacy of light armour. In vanilla there is an awkward switch from light armour to heavy armour around Hollywood, creating more problems than solving. In DC you just pick Hardened, strenghten it with Tinkerer and call it a day.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: January 7th, 2016, 10:10 am
by NickAragua
I like this list and came to more or less the same conclusions.

I would have suggested posting the skill pip requirements for the perks to make the list more useable, as I don't remember them off hand. It's also important to note that your skill *naturally* has to be at the level required by the perk, i.e. you have to have invested the skill points or read a skill book. So, no putting on a trinket to bring your safecracking/lockpicking to 10 and then getting a 'master thief' perk. This actually makes that perk quite unattractive in my book. I might even refer to it as "Homely". Normally I don't bother bringing non-combat skills up to 10, because trinkets allow me to leave them at 7/8/9 and then I can just put on the trinket when I need to pick a tough lock or whatever.

There was only one time I put points into skills just so I could get the perk was near the end game, when, between the various skill books and trinkets, I'd boosted all my party members primary skills to ten and was awash in skill points (I think we wound up hitting level 40 or so). At that point, I spent the 4 skill points to give everyone two pips in weaponsmithing and took the Tinkerer perk, because that extra AP is *superb*, especially for a sniper using an AP cost 7 rifle.

Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Posted: January 7th, 2016, 10:32 am
by Zombra
Thanks, Nick. It's worth noting that my Pageant is somewhat outdated as these opinions were given prior to the first major patch, which significantly rebalanced several Perks .