Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by veevoir » October 16th, 2015, 8:37 am

Just my 2c about tormentor perk - it seems to give +10% dmg against enemy in cover BUT it doesnt matter if the cover gives a bonus against you. So if you flank an enemy you still get those 10% more. If somebody could confirm my findings that would mean this perk is actually awesome.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by SagaDC » October 16th, 2015, 8:45 am

veevoir wrote:Just my 2c about tormentor perk - it seems to give +10% dmg against enemy in cover BUT it doesnt matter if the cover gives a bonus against you. So if you flank an enemy you still get those 10% more. If somebody could confirm my findings that would mean this perk is actually awesome.
Well, if that's the case then I'll definitely agree that it's better. Still not great, but definitely an improvement. :)

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by veevoir » October 16th, 2015, 8:52 am

Wonder if whack-a-mole works the same way. It would also amke it a definite improvement.

One more thought about +1 Armor perk - it is 10/5 if you already have the thick skin quirk (awesome quirk btw) - this means 3 natural armor = Light armors are heavy armors now ;-). Tinkerer synergizes nicely for further awesomeness.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 9:33 am

What's the fastest any SMG can reload with both Fast Reload and a quickmag?

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Bullet2head » October 16th, 2015, 12:17 pm

As somebody who is currently 2 perks in for AoO's with a blunt weapon user who crits for 150, they're pretty useful. Then again, I'm not in LA, and it's been long enough since I played that I don't remember how good/bad it'd be over there. But with discobots, threshers, octobots, and tons of melee users from ToT/CoT, I've found myself getting dozens of kills from people just running past my really heavily armored 300 hp dude with a wooden stick.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 16th, 2015, 12:27 pm

Wait, I just read over here that the AoO Perks don't even work when a guy runs up to you; it's only when they move away that you get a free attack (which is what the description says, but I just couldn't believe it). I'm glad to hear that you find them useful Bullet2head, but to me they now sound even more doggishly ugly than I first thought. It should really be just one Perk for a full damage swing when a guy disengages. Limit once per turn is fine. Maybe a second Perk invested would make it unlimited.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 12:49 pm

How's it play out if your AoOtunist rushes headlong to flush an enemy sniper or assault rifleman out from behind cover? A good attack when you get there and works out well as they leave?

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Bullet2head » October 16th, 2015, 12:53 pm

Zombra wrote:Wait, I just read over here that the AoO Perks don't even work when a guy runs up to you; it's only when they move away that you get a free attack (which is what the description says, but I just couldn't believe it). I'm glad to hear that you find them useful Bullet2head, but to me they now sound even more doggishly ugly than I first thought. It should really be just one Perk for a full damage swing when a guy disengages. Limit once per turn is fine. Maybe a second Perk invested would make it unlimited.
It's had its uses and combined with the base armor and extra hp perk, along with some +4-5 armor, he's pretty much unkillable in a normal fight. Sending him headfirst into combat nets me 1-3 of these per fight, depending on how things go. I agree there's probably something better, but... kind of not. I have slayer, so what else should I be doing once I've got my main fighter all buffed out?
macksting wrote:How's it play out if your AoOtunist rushes headlong to flush an enemy sniper or assault rifleman out from behind cover? A good attack when you get there and works out well as they leave?
That's a lot of what happens. He's so armored and buffed up (see above) that I'm fine with just sending him in headfirst. This is on the the third highest difficulty, so I don't know how it'd fair on jerk. Usually what happens is that when my squad is spread out, he goes in and causes an attack or two via AoO as the enemy either decides he's too tough to kill or focuses on a lower hp character. To try and flank is death.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 12:57 pm

Fascinating. So at minimum, this Perk isn't entirely wasted on lower difficulties, since your opponents can't trivially kill a foolhardy vanguard.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Bullet2head » October 16th, 2015, 1:01 pm

That about sums it up, yes. I imagine that with more healing bonuses via lower difficulties this gets easier and easier as you go down. But I'd like to stress that I specifically specced him out to be this way. 10 str, 10 blunt weapons (or he will be in a level), armor and hp perks, along with +5 armor... well, armor, and the 2 AoO perks. He's made to do that. The only thing I have left is the -25% movement when wearing heavy armor perk, but that's not so high on the list since I JUST got him a 4 AP melee wep, and he's been using a 5 AP, so attacking and moving in the same turn can be difficult at times, and 25% wasn't going to fix the issue.

On an interesting sidenote, playing 5.0 DnD recently has AoO's only when an enemy crosses your path but does not engage, or walks out of range without using a special disengage movement. I'm not sure about 3.5, and I'd have to ask my fiance about it, but I'm like... 60% sure it worked that way there too, where actively going forward to combat somebody didn't trigger an AoO.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Drool » October 16th, 2015, 1:08 pm

Hm. On the one hand, it sounds like the design mission here was: "Perks should give small little bonuses that don't amount to much, but could be very minor quality of life improvements, especially since we're talking about 4-7 characters here."

But then some of the Perks are just ridiculously good. Frankly, if they were all mediocre 1 and 2% boosts, it wouldn't be an issue, and three perk chains would be fine. But then you stumble across some crazy perk that's ten times better than everything else.

Serious design inconsistency.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 16th, 2015, 1:10 pm

Maybe I'm just weird. It's starting to sound like I'm the only guy who doesn't recklessly stampede his melee units straight into the enemy guns.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 1:18 pm

Zombra wrote:Maybe I'm just weird. It's starting to sound like I'm the only guy who doesn't recklessly stampede his melee units straight into the enemy guns.
It does rather reward a course of action one probably shouldn't be doing. When your enemies are spread widely apart and are using cover, though, it can be genuinely helpful to have some high strength bruiser dash over and flush him out so you don't waste as much ammunition trying to shoot up a car.
Drool wrote:Serious design inconsistency.
That really is the core of the problem, isn't it.
Granted, there's a bit of a "red barrels explode" issue here, since, even if one intended perks as a rule to only apply situational or minor effects, the perks and feats in other games tend to introduce whole new game-changing mechanics.
I have no idea how to scale back that expectation, and I'm not sure one should.
Bullet2head wrote:On an interesting sidenote, playing 5.0 DnD recently has AoO's only when an enemy crosses your path but does not engage, or walks out of range without using a special disengage movement. I'm not sure about 3.5, and I'd have to ask my fiance about it, but I'm like... 60% sure it worked that way there too, where actively going forward to combat somebody didn't trigger an AoO.
Pathfinder has a few extra uses for attacks of opportunity; the basic mechanic works the same, but one can easily get into an arms race between those who wish to freely disengage and those who wish to strike all comers.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mechanic not unlike Ambush in other games. Any round my Pathfinder character can't think of anything better to do, he readies either an attack or a spell contingent on an opponent getting ambitious.
Is your AoOtunist (Bob for now) Bob wearing heavy armor, or intending to do so? Is he using blunt weapons? Would you be willing to try this with bladed weapons down the road, see how it compares?

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by SagaDC » October 16th, 2015, 1:24 pm

Zombra wrote:Maybe I'm just weird. It's starting to sound like I'm the only guy who doesn't recklessly stampede his melee units straight into the enemy guns.
Well, in my case I have a very aggressive playstyle by nature, but on top of that my current party is designed so that I can use every single weapon category (for the purposes of testing them all out). The vast majority of those weapon categories are based around close-range engagements, so that means that the majority of my squad has to move up quickly during combat.

When combat starts, my sniper and rifleman hang back and pop people who are out of cover, then pretty much everyone else moves up. My short-range gunners like my submachine gun gal or my energy weapon guy will hug cover if possible, but the other three guys are all melee-focused. That means I want to engage them in close-combat as quickly as possible, to maximize their damage potential.

In rare cases where it's too dangerous to rush toward an opponent, such as when they're too far away for me to reach them in a single turn, I'll play more cautiously and move up using cover one turn at a time.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Drool » October 16th, 2015, 1:31 pm

macksting wrote:I have no idea how to scale back that expectation, and I'm not sure one should.
Well, dealing with unmet (and unfounded) expectations is one thing, whiplash is another.

I mean, look at the Pistol Perks and then the Sniper ones.

Zeroed / +2% stacking Critical Chance bonus when repeatedly attacking a specific target with Handguns
Bandit / 2% chance attacks with Handguns or SMG will not use AP
Gunslinger / Free attack chance with Pistol and SMG increased to 4%
Desperado / Free attack chance with Pistol and SMG increased to 6%

Watchman / No Chance to Hit penalty when using Ambush
Focused Shooter / -15% Under Pressure penalty
Confident Shooter / -30% Under Pressure penalty
Zen Shooter / -45% Under Pressure penalty
Deadeye / -1 AP when firing Sniper Rifles if you haven't moved during the turn

Remove Deadeye, and everything's suddenly balanced. Suddenly, all the Perks are minor or situational quality of life helpers. Sure, Watchman is the best of the lot, but that's still a situational bonus. But Deadeye is so vastly superior to all the others, and could potentially be the difference between one shot per turn and two. And as long as your sniper stays put (which they should be doing anyway), it's a constant, always active bonus, as opposed to a 2%/4%/6% chance.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Bullet2head » October 16th, 2015, 1:31 pm

Zombra wrote:Maybe I'm just weird. It's starting to sound like I'm the only guy who doesn't recklessly stampede his melee units straight into the enemy guns.
It's really counterintuitive until you try it. Most people think melee is reckless to the point of detriment, but if you skill and arm for it, sure he takes 60 damage in a fight, but everybody else takes half of what they normally would (or none), have enemies to shoot at that aren't in cover and can flank a lot easier due to bad positioning on the AI's part. It's like a melee build in the new fallouts. It seems like a terrible idea until your realize bullets don't hurt enough to make it worth using something other than a shotgun fist.
macksting wrote:
Bullet2head wrote:On an interesting sidenote, playing 5.0 DnD recently has AoO's only when an enemy crosses your path but does not engage, or walks out of range without using a special disengage movement. I'm not sure about 3.5, and I'd have to ask my fiance about it, but I'm like... 60% sure it worked that way there too, where actively going forward to combat somebody didn't trigger an AoO.
Pathfinder has a few extra uses for attacks of opportunity; the basic mechanic works the same, but one can easily get into an arms race between those who wish to freely disengage and those who wish to strike all comers.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mechanic not unlike Ambush in other games. Any round my Pathfinder character can't think of anything better to do, he readies either an attack or a spell contingent on an opponent getting ambitious.
Is your AoOtunist (Bob for now) Bob wearing heavy armor, or intending to do so? Is he using blunt weapons? Would you be willing to try this with bladed weapons down the road, see how it compares?
He is intending to wear heavy armor, but until I can get the last perk in place he's just using some military vest with no penalty for 5 armor at the moment.

Back before DC in my first full playthrough I did something similar with Lex. Full brawler (fist fighting), high armor, etc, and used him and a similar based brawler (who was coincidentally named Big Bob) to run in and cause havoc while recieving support fire from the backline. As I understand it, bladed weapons are almost always worse than blunt or melee, but I see almost no reason why the principal wouldn't work.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 16th, 2015, 3:24 pm

Keep in mind stuff like Charge! function even without the requisite weapon being equipped. +0.5 combat speed is quite considerable (it's more than what the penalty for goat hide armor with a character that meets the STR requirement is, for example) - it's equal to five points of Speed (each point is +0.1 combat speed.) I love the combination with Thick Skin - with Thick Skin's penalty, my 4 Speed dude's combat speed is something like 1.6... pretty low, right? But he gets a plenty respectable 2.1 combat speed for the first turn, more than enough time to hustle his way into his initial position.

I'm assuming the same is true for a Bladed Weapons user and their perk - +1 Armor anytime someone's near you.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 16th, 2015, 3:32 pm

PizzaSHARK wrote:Charge!['s] +0.5 combat speed is quite considerable - it's equal to five points of Speed (each point is +0.1 combat speed.)
Whoa, that's way more than I guessed. That's enough to boost it to Attractive. May need to go back and edit my post.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 3:33 pm

Wow. What other flat speed drops are there which might be modified by Charge! ? Is it pretty much just armor, strength requirements and Thick Skin?
Twitchy, of course, gives a straightforward Combat Speed boost as I recall, which would presumably stack with Charge! if you just really needed that initial movement. Not sure this is actually a great idea; just bringing it up.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 16th, 2015, 3:55 pm

macksting wrote:Wow. What other flat speed drops are there which might be modified by Charge! ? Is it pretty much just armor, strength requirements and Thick Skin?
Twitchy, of course, gives a straightforward Combat Speed boost as I recall, which would presumably stack with Charge! if you just really needed that initial movement. Not sure this is actually a great idea; just bringing it up.
Charge! literally just gives +0.5 Combat Speed for a single turn. It's not affected by any modifiers, it's just a straight +0.5.

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