WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Check here to discuss Wasteland 2 gameplay topics. Please avoid spoilers in thread titles.

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

Parja
Initiate
Posts: 13
Joined: October 12th, 2015, 12:37 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Parja » October 14th, 2015, 11:23 am

SagaDC wrote:Handguns: Moderate damage, moderate penetration, very short range, low-to-moderate AP cost. Can be buffed by the Bandit chain, which gives up to a 6% chance of getting a free attack (3-5 AP), equating to one free attack every seventeen shots (at the cost of three perks).
Make the bonuses on the Bandit chain stack instead of replace and you've got something. 12% chance of a free attack would be nice.
Submachine Guns: Low damage, low penetration, moderate range, moderate AP cost, always burst-fires. Two perks, one dedicated to reducing the reload cost, and another granting a small bonus to hit targets that are in cover (ie, reducing the accuracy penalty from -50% to -40%). No perks are dedicated to enhancing the weapon in any significant way. Submachine guns start off weak and ammo-hungry, and end weak and ammo-hungry but with the added benefit of eating ammo faster (via the reload perk) and being slightly more likely to hit (and not hurt) targets behind cover.
The reload cost one is decent, but yeah, the cover penalty one is pretty lackluster.

Handguns, SMGs, and Shotguns would all greatly benefit from an Armor Penetration perk/chain.

Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles...yikes! The best weapon perks on top of the already best weapon types.
As an aside, Tinkerer is the best perk, hands down. Unless you're absolutely intent on using heavy armor (maybe if you have "Reinforced Plating" and "Shoulder the Load"), then +1AP for wearing light armor will always be the better choice. Plus, it only costs 4SP to meet the prerequisites (Weaponsmith 2).
For sure. I'm thinking it'll be worth the 4SP investment on a few characters just to qualify for this perk. Stack this with an AP-boosting Quirk like Brittle Bones or Two-Pump Chump and you can stack to some pretty ridiculous AP. 14 AP and 12 CI at your first Perk with Two-Pump Chump...ooh!

Wastebot
Acolyte
Posts: 78
Joined: December 22nd, 2014, 11:35 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Wastebot » October 14th, 2015, 11:46 am

SagaDC wrote:As an aside, Tinkerer is the best perk, hands down. Unless you're absolutely intent on using heavy armor (maybe if you have "Reinforced Plating" and "Shoulder the Load"), then +1AP for wearing light armor will always be the better choice. Plus, it only costs 4SP to meet the prerequisites (Weaponsmith 2).

As an added bonus, most (if not all) of the Light Armor items seem to be non-conductive, so no worrying about energy weapons either.
I have to agree tinkerer seems pretty damn good, especially compared to the heavy armor option, which requires much more investment, just for +1 armor.

I agree with pretty much everything you said in your rant on the perk design too. But I think you're greatly overvaluing some of the perk chains. Sure rush n attack is a guaranteed free attack- if you can close into melee range on the first round of combat. Often that's a very dangerous/reckless move. And 10% chance to inflict status ailments on the shortest range weapon in the game with some of the highest damage output is also questionable. If you close into melee with someone you usually want to just spend another 3 AP if your first hit doesn't finish them, not leave them alive. Likewise energy weapons doing 70% damage instead of 40% damage to non-conductive foes isn't much of an improvement, you're much better off simply training in a non conductive complimentary weapon.

To any devs that may be reading: I'm happy we have perks at all don't get me wrong, and I appreciate the effort that went into this overhaul. I'm enjoying it so far even with some of it shortcomings. but a lot of the design seems inconsistent. I get that we're talking about abilities that add up in a 7 man squad throughout an entire playthrough, but is that one in twenty free handgun shots really better than always having better armor penetration, no melee penalties(suck on this sniper rifles! AR's do what you do in 3 perks in only 1! AND they do it better!)

As mentioned shotguns were already a questionable weapon. And instead of something that might make them feel stronger- like a perk that made every blast after your first cost 1 less ap than the default (maybe called "double barrel), or something that put potent bleed effects AND other random precision shot debuffs on any enemies whose armor your shotgun fully penetrated we just have a chance to not get friendly fire. Most people who use shotguns are fine with the tactical application of the weapon. Those that aren't probably aren't going to to see the 3 feat tax of probably not hitting allies and feel compelled to suddenly give the weapon a try.

Let's face it: feat taxes stink. It can be understandable to expect a heavier investment for more powerful abilities, but with how a lot of these abilities feel their overall power level would bother me less if they were contained in 2 perks and had another perk that did something more interesting.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the new perks feel powerful, and fun, and awesome. But I find myself eschewing a lot of the perks relevant to my characters actual weapons and getting ones with more reliable effects that will synergize with others- stacking armor, stacking the health perk with stimpaks, or stacking reliable sources of damage over these weird, incredibly small chances to apply status effects to enemies I'm about to kills anyway, or save a small amount of ammo, or get one free shot in 20 attacks.
Last edited by Wastebot on October 14th, 2015, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wastebot
Acolyte
Posts: 78
Joined: December 22nd, 2014, 11:35 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Wastebot » October 14th, 2015, 11:47 am

Parja wrote:
SagaDC wrote:Handguns: Moderate damage, moderate penetration, very short range, low-to-moderate AP cost. Can be buffed by the Bandit chain, which gives up to a 6% chance of getting a free attack (3-5 AP), equating to one free attack every seventeen shots (at the cost of three perks).
Make the bonuses on the Bandit chain stack instead of replace and you've got something. 12% chance of a free attack would be nice.
Submachine Guns: Low damage, low penetration, moderate range, moderate AP cost, always burst-fires. Two perks, one dedicated to reducing the reload cost, and another granting a small bonus to hit targets that are in cover (ie, reducing the accuracy penalty from -50% to -40%). No perks are dedicated to enhancing the weapon in any significant way. Submachine guns start off weak and ammo-hungry, and end weak and ammo-hungry but with the added benefit of eating ammo faster (via the reload perk) and being slightly more likely to hit (and not hurt) targets behind cover.
The reload cost one is decent, but yeah, the cover penalty one is pretty lackluster.

Handguns, SMGs, and Shotguns would all greatly benefit from an Armor Penetration perk/chain.

Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles...yikes! The best weapon perks on top of the already best weapon types.
As an aside, Tinkerer is the best perk, hands down. Unless you're absolutely intent on using heavy armor (maybe if you have "Reinforced Plating" and "Shoulder the Load"), then +1AP for wearing light armor will always be the better choice. Plus, it only costs 4SP to meet the prerequisites (Weaponsmith 2).
For sure. I'm thinking it'll be worth the 4SP investment on a few characters just to qualify for this perk. Stack this with an AP-boosting Quirk like Brittle Bones or Two-Pump Chump and you can stack to some pretty ridiculous AP. 14 AP and 12 CI at your first Perk with Two-Pump Chump...ooh!
two pump chump is terrible. Stack it with something like disparnumerophobia instead. That quirk is really, really underrated.

Also I don't have any personal experience yet but at least whack a mole synergizes nicely with A: the tormentor perk and B: smg's "close range but not always right in your face" style. I think that smg's might have some of the better perks overall, you can use them virtually all the time, and being able to shoot through cover instead of having to run around it saves you 1-2 ap. Between both perks you can shave 1 or 2 ap off your actions almost every round. with careful planning that can be really big. and if you pick up tormentor you are increasing your damage output while doing this as well.

Wastebot
Acolyte
Posts: 78
Joined: December 22nd, 2014, 11:35 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Wastebot » October 14th, 2015, 12:04 pm

one real missed opportunity imo:

"Heavy" enemies have a unique aoe barrage. If the precision strikes were condensed into 2 perks and an ability like this was made available as a perk it would be pretty cool for a heavy weapon master to be able to basically lay down suppressive fire, debuffing a wide swathe of enemies with precision afflictions and armor down. It always kinda bummed me out that this very human enemy had access to a very cool attack with a type of weapon players usually weren't crazy about anyway. The perk system would have been a great opportunity to give heavy weapons some really cool stuff- but don't get me wrong, I still think they made out pretty well compared to some others.

Another fun interesting idea that I think heavies or someone in x-com had would be to give some rapid fire weapon a special debuff that reduced the accuracy of your target 10 or 20%. With the way the accuracy scales late in the game I'm not sure 10% would make much of a difference unless you stacked it with the taunt perks- speaking of which, another cool idea with pretty underwhelming execution. 7% chance to miss? Unless hit rates have been massively revised late game enemies are going to laugh at that.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6213
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Zombra » October 14th, 2015, 12:58 pm

Wonderful criticisms, SDC. I do have a quibble with one of your observations though:
SagaDC wrote:Perks that just take the place of reloading your last save. I mean, seriously, if a player is really worried about critically failing a mechanics or lockpicking check, he's just going to reload his last save. He's not going to take a perk like Handyman or Master Thief.
As an inveterate save scummer, I was very excited to see Handyman and Master Thief. I don't like save scumming, but I do it because the design of the game so blatantly encourages it. (Wasteland 3 really needs to have a simple threshold system: either you can open a given lock at Skill Level X or you can't.) Being able to "pay the price" of eliminating scumming from the game via the purchase of these Perks makes me feel much better about my play time.

What I don't get is why Handyman is so, so cheap and Master Thief is so, so expensive; and why we're allowed to eliminate critical failures for some skills but not others - but these are subjects for another day I think. :)
Image

SagaDC
Global Moderator
Posts: 3504
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 5:51 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by SagaDC » October 14th, 2015, 1:05 pm

Parja wrote:Make the bonuses on the Bandit chain stack instead of replace and you've got something. 12% chance of a free attack would be nice.
Sure, I agree with that.

That's actually one thing I'm still rather uncertain of. Some of the perks are worded in such a way that it sounds like they might stack, but I generally err on the side of caution and assume it means the new value replaces the old one.
Zombra wrote:As an inveterate save scummer, I was very excited to see Handyman and Master Thief. I don't like save scumming, but I do it because the design of the game so blatantly encourages it. Being able to "pay the price" of eliminating scumming from the game via the purchase of these Perks makes me feel much better about my play time.
That's fair. :)

Personally, I would see them as much more viable perks if there was some sort of "Iron Man" mode where you had to live with the horror of critical failures. If this were a tabletop RPG, then they'd be great perks, but in a single-player cRPG with a saving/loading mechanic I feel like they're a very weak addition to the game.

And yeah, it does feel odd that there aren't other perks that also negate associated critical fumbles. I mean, if you're going to go that route, then why not go all the way? Critically failing a demolitions check actually causes damage to the ranger, so why not have a perk for that one?

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6213
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Zombra » October 14th, 2015, 1:15 pm

I was thinking more of a Perk that let you pet cows without a chance of them going apeshit and trying to fucking eat you. Then again - that's Wasteland! :lol:
Image

SagaDC
Global Moderator
Posts: 3504
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 5:51 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by SagaDC » October 14th, 2015, 1:24 pm

Zombra wrote:I was thinking more of a Perk that let you pet cows without a chance of them going apeshit and trying to fucking eat you. Then again - that's Wasteland! :lol:
Well, in my case, recruiting animals is literally giving them a death sentence since I apparently strap some kind of time bomb to them. So I can't really blame them for occasionally trying to fight back. ;)

User avatar
sear
Developer
Posts: 2681
Joined: March 21st, 2012, 8:30 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by sear » October 14th, 2015, 3:36 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm going to do a pass on perks and take it into consideration.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Drool » October 14th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Zombra wrote:(Wasteland 3 really needs to have a simple threshold system: either you can open a given lock at Skill Level X or you can't.)
Heretic.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

Wastebot
Acolyte
Posts: 78
Joined: December 22nd, 2014, 11:35 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Wastebot » October 14th, 2015, 9:26 pm

sear wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm going to do a pass on perks and take it into consideration.
I can't speak for anyone else, but to me as a single person that enjoys your games this means a lot.

LastHearth
Initiate
Posts: 3
Joined: October 14th, 2015, 10:19 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by LastHearth » October 14th, 2015, 11:06 pm

So can we get some kind of clarification on which (if any) of the perks stack? Stuff like Focused Shooter/Zen Shooter are worded in a way that it's very ambiguous.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6213
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Zombra » October 15th, 2015, 10:46 am

Drool wrote:
Zombra wrote:(Wasteland 3 really needs to have a simple threshold system: either you can open a given lock at Skill Level X or you can't.)
Heretic.
:lol: Well, in a pinch I would accept the simple removal of critical failures, so that like in the original you could just keep trying over and over with no downside .. but gameplay-wise this really amounts to the same thing.
Image

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Drool » October 15th, 2015, 11:02 am

On the other hand, in the original, there were checks that needed to be passed to progress in the game. None of the skill checks are plot critical in WL2.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

Wastebot
Acolyte
Posts: 78
Joined: December 22nd, 2014, 11:35 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Wastebot » October 15th, 2015, 11:03 am

Zombra wrote:
Drool wrote:
Zombra wrote:(Wasteland 3 really needs to have a simple threshold system: either you can open a given lock at Skill Level X or you can't.)
Heretic.
:lol: Well, in a pinch I would accept the simple removal of critical failures, so that like in the original you could just keep trying over and over with no downside .. but gameplay-wise this really amounts to the same thing.
considering you need two skills completely capped for master thief, would something like instant auto success on all lockpicking/safecracking *really* be broken by that point? >__>

SagaDC
Global Moderator
Posts: 3504
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 5:51 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by SagaDC » October 15th, 2015, 11:06 am

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd prefer if the "critical" perks affected your critical success rate rather than removing the critical failure chance. I mean, I can see the appeal of never having critical failures, but that's more of a defensive measure that tends to drag out the game by encouraging the player to repeatedly try skill checks until they succeed.

A perk that increased your chance of critically succeeding, however, would be both useful AND expedite play since once you had the perk it would make many skill checks faster (since a critical success immediately ends the skill check, even if the timer hasn't finished).

User avatar
Gruftlord
Explorer
Posts: 453
Joined: September 23rd, 2014, 2:43 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Gruftlord » October 15th, 2015, 11:14 am

i think i'm in the same boat with Zombra here, the perks are a great way to pay absolution for those (like him and me) who would otherwise reload and later feel bad about it :D. I hate feeling left out of anything in a game, but i have no problem making my characters earn it.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6213
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Zombra » October 15th, 2015, 12:24 pm

SagaDC wrote:A perk that increased your chance of critically succeeding, however, would be both useful AND expedite play since once you had the perk it would make many skill checks faster (since a critical success immediately ends the skill check, even if the timer hasn't finished).
As a side note, I've always felt that the skill timer should be sped up by higher skill levels and slowed down by higher challenge levels. I guess the benefit would be pretty minor and not really justify the complexity of implementation, but still.

And I do like your idea of higher crit success rate (but I still think eliminating crit failures is better).
Image

SagaDC
Global Moderator
Posts: 3504
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 5:51 am

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by SagaDC » October 15th, 2015, 12:36 pm

As another aside, I like "Cyber-Scrounger" because it gives me a steady flow of energy cells, but I absolutely love "Improvised Explosives" because it gives me a steady flow of grenades.

Seriously, Rail Nomad Camp alone gave me, like, ten extra pipe bombs. :P

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6213
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: WL2 Perks (What We Know So Far)

Post by Zombra » October 15th, 2015, 12:41 pm

I have a question about Intimidating, Affable, and Know-It-All. These are the Perks that give you +1 rank in the appropriate social skill.

Does the extra rank get "filled in" on the character sheet, or is it an effective bonus applied to your actual skill? If it's not clear what I'm asking, what I really want to know is whether the cost of the next rank is affected. If I have Hard Ass level 2 plus the Intimidating Perk for an effective total of 3 ranks, will the next rank cost me 2 or 4 skill points? Should I wait until I get rank 9 in the skill before buying the Perk, or is it cost-effective to purchase immediately?
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests