[ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

For discussing Torment's story as it slowly gets unveiled, as well as discussing the game's setting. Ninth World discussions encouraged. Spoilers allowed.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by demise4u » March 12th, 2017, 12:08 pm

Some of these responses are way overboard, but I do have to say that the ending was very disappointing. Like, ME3 levels of disappointing.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by ljs » March 12th, 2017, 7:09 pm

demise4u wrote:Some of these responses are way overboard, but I do have to say that the ending was very disappointing. Like, ME3 levels of disappointing.
...and due to the same problems too (cut content, lack of communication, holes in logic...)

Maybe not the endings by themselves, but the whole story - in PS:T at the end you knew what you did before, what happened and why you get this choices; in T:ToN you get some pieces of information and must make a final choice than not logically comes from this information.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by realitymonster » March 15th, 2017, 1:41 pm

I was going to go back and play through the game again in a different way, but I realised that I didn't really care to. I didn't think I'd get anything out of it.

Instead, I went back and re-installed Wasteland 2. I barely played it when it was first released, so I thought I'd give it another go. I know it's not story driven in quite the same way, but it's so much more satisfying as a player experience already. Planescape: Torment was definitely defined by its story, but the fighting and struggling was core to the game as well.

Ah well, the game wasn't quite what I wanted, but it was a good distraction for a few hours. I may come back to it again one day. I don't feel too bad about backing it; it was worth the experiment.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Atnas » March 15th, 2017, 5:57 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with OP. Both a bit sad and glad I find someone who felt as I did, now that I too have finally finished the game. What a letdown. I will admit I was hyped about it, but I decided to lower expectations once I read about how many stretchgoals were cut. Still, I was underwhelmed. Some parts were good and interesting, but overall I just feel it was a very... lukewarm experience.

The Changing God is a lame villain. Is he even a villain? I don't know, he barely makes any appearances directly so you never get to know him. Or I mean, I guess what's left of him. Turns out The Changing God could be talked out of existence at a whim, all that fire and brimstone and genius snuffed out because he's a copy of himself.

The whole daughter thing comes so late and is so tacked on, it feels incredibly cheap. Weird, even. Am I meant to feel sympathy? For him? For his daughter?

The Sorrow turned out to be nothing more than some force trying to kill you for passively affecting people with your Tides. What the fuck is that all about though? There's wars, strife and shit caused by people without the Tides all the time, what a lame reason to hunt the cast offs for. I had hoped for a great reveal, twist or explanation- but no, that's all there is to it.

Ah, I don't know man. I've got to vent a bit.

All the companions were dull and bland. I liked Erritis, but only because I was a Nano and could read "his" thoughts. I'm sad I never got to explore or finish his sidequest though, I wanted to find out more about those... Nano Demons?

Blargh. I feel empty.

6/10, but only because the writing was good even if it was too verbose too often. Would've done better as a visual novel. Can't believe they spent all this time developing this game.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by anonymous6059 » March 16th, 2017, 4:56 pm

Here is what I still don't understand. Why did The Changing God have to hide inside The Last Castoffs mind? What advantage was gained by vacating the vessel he needed? The whole point was for him to use the body to end The Sorrow with it right? So was it an accident and that is how he lost control over The Last Castoffs vessel or did he do it on purpose.

If it was an accident, something that happened as a result of the fall, why did he wait to try and reclaim the vessel? Shouldn't he just take it back asap? This is the one thing that I never understood at all. I also found it very annoying that another consciousness was able to spring to life even though The Changing God never actually vacanted the premises. The whole concept revolved around the idea of consiousness springing from the void, the space left behind by The Chaning Gods abandonement.

Sorry for posting that here. It was just one of the more disappoint moments of the game for me and I didn't know where else to put it.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Aramintai » March 17th, 2017, 6:20 am

anonymous6059 wrote: Sorry for posting that here. It was just one of the more disappoint moments of the game for me and I didn't know where else to put it.
There is no point in questioning anything in this piss poor game because, apparently, the original ambitious plot was shattered by facing reality of a low budget. Things were cut, many things. And many more things were changed and/or became irrelevant and nonsensical as a result. You can read about the original plot here:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017- ... f-numenera
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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Muntanal » March 17th, 2017, 9:54 am

Wow. Thanks for the podcast/article link!

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by anonymous6059 » March 17th, 2017, 10:23 am

Aramintai wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote: Sorry for posting that here. It was just one of the more disappoint moments of the game for me and I didn't know where else to put it.
There is no point in questioning anything in this piss poor game because, apparently, the original ambitious plot was shattered by facing reality of a low budget. Things were cut, many things. And many more things were changed and/or became irrelevant and nonsensical as a result. You can read about the original plot here:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017- ... f-numenera
You weren't kidding. :( Man, this would have been a great game. How did we get cheated so badly?
"The player still falls from the sky, lands in a junk heap, gets picked up by a guy called the Clock Maker, who sort of rebuilds you and nurses you back to health. You head up to an aldeia [a village], you meet some Aeon Priests who tell you about the Sorrow that's chasing you. You board The Catena, the one that crashed into the Bloom, and you take it and you crash it into the Bloom.
"You do some Bloom stuff and you climb up the mountain to Sagus Cliffs, and you do a whole bunch of Sagus Cliffs stuff. You travel from there along the shores of the sea. You hit the Valley of Dead Heroes, you go into a library, then you go into the Castoff compound and that's when the Sorrow comes in. And from there you take an airship up to the Oasis, and from the Oasis you head over to Ossiphagan, and from Ossiphagan you had to..."

If only the game had half of those locations.
I'd had loved to see the library that is mentioned in the explorer's guide, the fire wights in Ossiphagan, or even the Ghibra from the Oasis. They cut everything and sold us a pile of half concocted muck instead. We have been robbed and I'm honestly embarrassed that I believed in all the lies. :oops:

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Aramintai » March 17th, 2017, 12:14 pm

anonymous6059 wrote: If only the game had half of those locations.
You forgot to mention companions and other characters. Especially that interesting part about Matkina and the First Castoff. At least I understand now why the First Castoff was so heavily promoted in the beginning, because I couldn't get it with the cut mess she became in the end.
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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by anonymous6059 » March 18th, 2017, 6:43 am

Aramintai wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote: If only the game had half of those locations.
You forgot to mention companions and other characters. Especially that interesting part about Matkina and the First Castoff. At least I understand now why the First Castoff was so heavily promoted in the beginning, because I couldn't get it with the cut mess she became in the end.
Yeah, I see that now. The Changing God was never supposed to be in The Last Castoffs mind to begin with. No wonder it doesn't make sense. This game is a the biggest embarrassment ever. Its like they were so rushed to get the mess out the door that they didn't even think the changes through at all. It would have made much more sense if it turned out that you were The Changing God and not just that his consciousness was hiding in your mind. It completely breaks the base concept of a "Castoff" if you weren't actually castoff. They should have played it out more like split personality disorder between the PC and The Specter going back and forth throughout the game. Giving you the ability to choose which character had domination over the PCs mind. Instead they just go "surprise! you were not really castoff, but somehow have your own consciousness anyway! Isn't that brilliant!!!" I wonder if the developers were severely inebriated on the day they had that epiphany.

Also, yeah the First Castoff being Matkina would have been far more interesting. Wonder if at some point they had it planned that she would attack you and try to kill you, being a castoff hunter and all. I really liked the original ideas they had. The world building was well done. I hope someone will take this mess and makes something from it someday.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by poizan42 » March 18th, 2017, 7:06 am

anonymous6059 wrote:
Aramintai wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote: If only the game had half of those locations.
You forgot to mention companions and other characters. Especially that interesting part about Matkina and the First Castoff. At least I understand now why the First Castoff was so heavily promoted in the beginning, because I couldn't get it with the cut mess she became in the end.
Yeah, I see that now. The Changing God was never supposed to be in The Last Castoffs mind to begin with. No wonder it doesn't make sense. This game is a the biggest embarrassment ever. Its like they were so rushed to get the mess out the door that they didn't even think the changes through at all. It would have made much more sense if it turned out that you were The Changing God and not just that his consciousness was hiding in your mind. It completely breaks the base concept of a "Castoff" if you weren't actually castoff. They should have played it out more like split personality disorder between the PC and The Specter going back and forth throughout the game. Giving you the ability to choose which character had domination over the PCs mind. Instead they just go "surprise! you were not really castoff, but somehow have your own consciousness anyway! Isn't that brilliant!!!" I wonder if the developers were severely inebriated on the day they had that epiphany.

Also, yeah the First Castoff being Matkina would have been far more interesting. Wonder if at some point they had it planned that she would attack you and try to kill you, being a castoff hunter and all. I really liked the original ideas they had. The world building was well done. I hope someone will take this mess and makes something from it someday.
FWIW I did some spelunking in the game assets when the beta first came out for backers, and there was a game variable saying whether the player knows that the specter is the changing god already at that time, so it wasn't a last moment change at least.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Hawke64 » March 19th, 2017, 8:39 am

CUT STRETCH GOALS
Irrelevant for non-backers.

NOT CUT BUT LAUGHINGLY SHORT
Opinion. I think, these are long enough.

BAD GRAPHICS
Respectfully disagreed.There are detailed backgrounds and character models, material physics.

BAD PATH-FINDING
Agreed.

BALANCE PROBLEMS
There are balance problems, but nanos get gank'ed on the 1st turn.

BAD VOICE OVER
The VA in dialogues is good. The combat/exploration VA becomes annoying rather quickly.

VERY BAD COMBAT
There's not enough data in combat and the animations are slow. There are not enough combat encounters to judge the system as whole.

LOTS OF JUNK NUMENERA
Agreed on the fact.

TOO BLANK SLATE-Y PROTAGONIST
I think, it's a good thing. Also it goes well with the story.

SHALLOW COMPANIONS
I liked most of them.

SEVERE LACK OF NON-QUEST GIVER NPCS YOU CAN TALK TO
Riiiight, like the patrons of the Fifth Eye. Seriously, it may be considered as most of the named characters have quests, which is supposed to be a desirable attribute.

HEAVY DEPENDENCE ON TEXT TO CUT COSTS ON VISUAL ELEMENTS
It works, mostly.

MERES ARE USELESS?
Mostly, agreed.

DISAPPOINTING ENDING AND VILLAIN
I am disappointed with inability to punch the villain in the face and get a happy ending, but it (the Sorrow) being a randomly triggered defense mechanism is fair enough explanation for its existence. Can't say anything specific about Adahn's motivations, except humans are led by emotions more often, than by reason?

I guess, I neither had many expectations nor was blinded by nostalgia, when I purchased the game, so there are little hopes crushed.

@eNti 1. The Sorrow is a some sort of numenera, a big bad tentacle monster created by a long dead civilization to keep the Tides unused.
2. Some endings require effort to achieve, the problem is that it might be hard to see them being available (like, a greyed out option, instead of hidden one).

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Haran » March 19th, 2017, 1:05 pm

I agree with almost everything the OP said, but despite all that I found the game very enjoyable and I intend to do another playthrough soon.
Unlike the OP, I liked the PS:T similarities very much! Meeting O again was a nice surprise :)

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Grampybone » March 19th, 2017, 2:34 pm

The game is a really great experience until after the Memovira fight in Bloom. From that point on, it felt rushed and incomplete.

As an overall experience it's good. I'll probably reply again, after some big patching. The writing makes up for a lot. Certain gameplay is also innovative and interesting.

For me, despite rushed/incomplete ending, it was worth the money and then some, because nothing is good at everything, and this game is really good at what it focused on, story.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Guguma » March 21st, 2017, 12:20 am

I am not severely disappointed with the game, but Aramintai's criticism is spot on, and to the point. I have to say that I agree with everything Aramintai points out. I loved playing through Sagus Cliffs and it went downhill from there rather quickly. In fact I would like to add some points to this criticism.
Aramintai wrote: I've finished the game and man it sucks so bad in many ways.


BAD VOICE OVER:
Not only for some companions, but for the protagonist especially. I've played as a male Last Castoff and his gruff, mature voice didn't fit his very youthful portrait at all. Also, I don't get why Last Castoff was voiced at all since he\she is supposed to be a blank slate.
Furthermore, much of the VO we've heard from npcs and companions in the beta and videos is gone.

HEAVY DEPENDENCE ON TEXT TO CUT COSTS ON VISUAL ELEMENTS:
Sometimes too much text is, well, too much. Sometimes an npc portrait, a well executed animation, pre-rendered or ingame cutscene can convey a much better image than dozens upon dozens of words. Wall of text after a wall of text without resting for the eyes doesn't seem like a good design for an rpg. I've played this game, seen those walls of text and numerous Meres (text adventures) and frequently thought to myself - would it have been better if devs just did a visual novel?
And sometimes, it's not the amount of words that counts, but their quality.
I am disappointed with the voice acting and the lack of voice overs, I understand it can be expansive but it is a very important element.

I like the writing, but sometimes not only too much text is too much, too flashy and obscure writing is just too flashy and obscure. I understand that the memories and merecaster events are supposed to be obscure and confusing, since you re suddenly immersed in a memory you do not know the events of. But as the player, I should be able to place some meaning to them at some point in the game. I am not a native English speaker, that might of course have been an issue here. But I had a lot of trouble pinpointing which castoff's memories I was living, where the memories were occurring (both anamnesis and mere events) and rarely I had absolutely no idea what was going on.

But I must admit, I genuinely smiled when I saw character names like "Death-of-Ris", "Loss-of-Self", "Waits-for-Prey", made me nostalgic in a sense.
Aramintai wrote:
DISAPPOINTING ENDING AND VILLAIN:
If you were waiting for some grand revelation on the nature of the Tides and the Sorrow prepare to be disappointed in the end.
The Sorrow is not connected to the Changing God's immortality like the Transcendent One was in PS:T. It's simply a guardian of the Tides, which are never coherently explained in the game. It and the Tides existed long before the Changing God learned how to somehow abuse them to make and change his bodies (this also is never coherently explained). Abusing the Tides is bad for people's mental health around the world apparently, so the Sorrow's aim is to eradicate the abuser and his castoffs. But! If you play nice and pretty promise not to abuse the Tides, the Sorrow seems pretty lenient to the Changing God and his castoffs. No hard choices here.
The Changing God's original goal is also not some grand mystery, you can start surmising what it is even in Sagus Cliffs. It's all about his long dead sick daughter. But that goal was largely forgotten as time passed and more pressing matters occurred.
The First Castoff had one good twist in the game, being a Memovira, but in the end she wasn't anyone special, a wasted potential.

The ending locations were a disappointing bunch of short stubs called fathoms, some of which clearly were at some point part of something larger that was cut. For example, Kholn village or M'Ra Jolios.
And the end itself is very anticlimactic with a bunch of easy choices culminating in a little ingame cutscene and a bunch of boring ending slides, only one of which is for the protagonist. What does one life matter? A single crappy ending slide, that's what. So much for the Legacy, sigh.

I think it would have been better and more true to PS:T if the Sorrow was actually an aspect of the Changing God's daughter, who was also a subject of numerous resurrection experiments. At least that quest in Sagus Cliffs about possessed women would have nicely alluded to that.
Or it was born when the Changing God first switched bodies, or was an aspect of the First Castoff after she was killed.
But I guess I'm not a writer and boring choices are better?

First of all, The Sorrow, is an imposing character, but only in appearance. Why was there no voice acting for the main villain? and regarding the ending:

When I went to the labyrinth, the story told by the mere's, memories, other castoffs, endless battle, tides etc. became such a jumbled mess that I was practically not caring anymore. The game failed to establish any sort of rapport between the player and the castoffs/changing god. There was absolutely no reason for me to sympathize with the castoffs or the changing god. The characters of the First and the Changing God are not laid out well enough, let alone Chalcedon, Paj Rakken, Mazzof etc. This Changing God was supposed to be some influential person upon the world, but apart from the Tabaht and the probability engines it is just not there, surely s/he must have been impacting the world in some way if he needed to discard his bodies so often, working towards some grand plan, but it is just not there.

Anyway I will not linger on, but a lot of opportunities in character development and story telling seems to have been wasted, and the ending seems to have been rushed into a deus-ex machina with choices that do not carry much purpose. Planescape Torment was about *you*, this game started as if it is about *you* and turned into being something about an obscure force called *the tides*

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Aramintai » March 21st, 2017, 5:43 am

I'll just add this to my original post:

I don't know why this isn't getting more attention but an interview recently came out that explains quite a lot how the original promising premise of the Kickstarter campaign we all got hooked on went down the drain because of apparent lack of funding. The original, much more ambitious and interesting plot, main characters and numerous promised locations got rewritten, changed and/or removed completely. That's why the plot at times feels so nonsensical and lacking, heavily promoted characters are diminished into minor roles (the First Castoff, the Changing God) and some areas clearly look like stubs of something greater that was cut.
The interview is here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017- ... f-numenera
I can only have one comment about this for the devs and Brian Fargo specifically:
You've had it right in the beginning, but your piss poor management and lack of true passion for this project, which could have been the true successor to PS:T, ruined everything. You could have gotten yourself other investment opportunities aside from Kickstarter, like many other indie developers do nowadays, because clearly from the beginning even you could have seen that the funding from backers will not be enough to realize your writers' ambitions. You could have taken more risks and granted this project more of your attention and passion to make this a true labor of love, because that's what PS:T was back in the days when you were young and daring. But now you're old and not prone to take any any risks it seems, making cheap forgettable indie games that capitalize on the great titles of old to make some profit is all you can do now.
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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Naurgalen » March 26th, 2017, 2:29 am

I agree with a solid 7 for this game. And I don't really care about the graphics (which in general I really liked except by some really low quality textures), the cut content (development can be cruel), animations or the combat (it has flaws but the effort thing + combat talking are really nice concepts)

My "problem" is with the story, which is good but had so much more potential. (the concept of changing god!)

Yes it has many interesting themes like "how a magical war could mindfuck people","if a memory is changed how can it affects reality" or "what means to be the REAL changing god?" that are explored enough to have fun.

But IMHO they are not touched in depth or in strong relation to a core theme. When you play planescape torment you discover that many things can change the nature of a man: Love (Ravel), Pride (Trias), Regret (Morte, the Pillar of Skulls), Oaths/Self-Knowledge (Dakkon), Hate (The transcendent one hates you because he knows what you did), Belief (Curst, Aoskar) etc... its all the game reinforcing a concept by giving you different views on a core topic. In Tides, that lack of "unified concept" reinforces IMHO far more the setting (layers of unrelated civilizations together) than the story itself. And yes I know that the core idea was "what does one life matter" and some quests + the companions delve on that... but IMHO the relations doesn't feel strong enough.

And probably + sadly the worst offender is the ending, as it has nothing to do with that concept at all (if you think that castoffs are live beings and not just "parts of you"): you genocide them (by fusion, slower Sorrow, or plain extermination) OR you damage the sorrow and kill tons of other people. In both cases after all the sacrifices you only get a little paragraph of legacy and the comfortable reminder in your mind that the sorrow will still return when other race discovers the power of the tides to give its deserved (?) annihilation.
Last edited by Naurgalen on March 29th, 2017, 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by eNTi » March 28th, 2017, 2:55 pm

I felt nothing at the end of the game... well maybe relief that it was finally over. The ending was just boring and not engaging in any way. Was thinking of downloading the new patch today... then I thought: Oh why the fuck would I want to do that? :D

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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by Crosmando » March 29th, 2017, 3:57 am

Wow, this really makes it sound like the game is a bomb, but I guess I'll have to play it through to find out for myself, too bad I've already got a few more games till TToN is next on my list.
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Re: [ENDING SPOILERS] This game is disappointing beyond belief

Post by acm » March 29th, 2017, 7:29 pm

Aramintai wrote:
March 21st, 2017, 5:43 am
The interview is here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017- ... f-numenera
I can only have one comment about this for the devs and Brian Fargo specifically:
You've had it right in the beginning, but your piss poor management and lack of true passion for this project, which could have been the true successor to PS:T, ruined everything. You could have gotten yourself other investment opportunities aside from Kickstarter, like many other indie developers do nowadays, because clearly from the beginning even you could have seen that the funding from backers will not be enough to realize your writers' ambitions. You could have taken more risks and granted this project more of your attention and passion to make this a true labor of love, because that's what PS:T was back in the days when you were young and daring. But now you're old and not prone to take any any risks it seems, making cheap forgettable indie games that capitalize on the great titles of old to make some profit is all you can do now.
Ouch, and sadly also a spot-on comment. But I'm not sure if the funding was insufficient per-se. They started out with an existing engine and tools, I was really expecting them to put everything into an ambitious story, even the 200-300h version. If the implementation of a feature gets too hard, just describe in text what's going on and skip the visuals.* PS:T was not *that* impressive in its time as well. (*they cut a lot and *still* did this most of the time anyways)

And thanks for the link, the interview was really interesting! It is really sad to see that they started with a coherent and engaging story and ended up with a put'n'paste hodge-podge. It feels like they accidentally shipped the peel and forgot the fruit. The changing "god" is just a baffoon who can be finished with a "Tidal surge" + "You are not real" combo? Pathetic.

I would be much more emphatic with the devs if they just come forth and say that their initial plans were too big and there were cuts at the cost of quality. The current Baghdad Bob communication strategy of "we surpassed our jobs" is not that helpful in my eyes. And the devs really long for some love, looking how they suckle on every positive comment that shows up.

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