Day&Night

For discussing Torment's story as it slowly gets unveiled, as well as discussing the game's setting. Ninth World discussions encouraged. Spoilers allowed.

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anonymous6059
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Day&Night

Post by anonymous6059 » March 7th, 2016, 5:05 am

In the Beta its always day time. When the game is released will we see day and night? If so, will people and activities change depending on the time of day. Will some events become available or unavailable with the passage of time? I thought I remembered reading that this would happen but I can't remember where now.

Examples:
1. During the day time you can find a certain NPC, but during the night the NPC is gone.
2. Thugs attack more frequently during the night.
3. If you don't talk to a NPC after 3 days the NPC leaves or changes location, attitude towards you, or willingness to help.
4. Certain quest can only be accomplished during the night or day.
5. Certain quest can only be accomplished within a certain number of days.

I really hope these things make it into the game. I also am curious if anyone has any information on the resting animation. PST had the lady of pain mask with turning gears. What will TToN have? I WANT A REST ANIMATION!!!!! :x
Last edited by anonymous6059 on March 8th, 2016, 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by kilobug » March 7th, 2016, 3:22 pm

I personally prefer no day-night cycle, or if there is one, that it has very few effect - it's quite bothering to have to wait (even if there is a "wait X hours" button) until the shops open or whatever. It kills the fun, and it doesn't bring much in verisimilitude because it always feels a bit artificial

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Re: Day&Night

Post by anonymous6059 » March 7th, 2016, 7:02 pm

kilobug wrote:It kills the fun, and it doesn't bring much in verisimilitude because it always feels a bit artificial
Seriously, your joking right? How does that make any sense? So when the NPCs stand in the same spot 24/7, always do the same thing, and the sun never sets its more realistic to you?

Anyway, I read somewhere that it was going to be in this game. I can't remember where and I don't think it will be a overly used feature but I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be implemented. I'm just looking for someone verify or deny the legitimacy of its eventual existence at launch.
Last edited by anonymous6059 on March 7th, 2016, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by anonymous6059 » March 7th, 2016, 7:29 pm

I've been searching all over for where in the world I got the idea from. I think it might of come from a video with Mr. McComb in it. I think he basically said that a few quest would be time sensitive in the game. Something that he wanted to possibly expand on in Torment 2 or 3. I'm not sure if he was kidding about sequels or not. Guess that would obviously depend on the success of this game.

Anyway, I don't really want a ton of time sensitive quest myself, but a few does sound interesting. For instance, in the game a murder is taking place (I'll avoid detailing anything too important because of spoilers.) and as you rest more people die. I'm wondering if you might be able to catch the murderer early on and save lives. If so then certain NPCs would still be around to interact with. They might even have quest for you that would otherwise have been unavailable because the NPCs are dead.

Peppering the game with 3-4 things like that would just be great and I hope it happens. I'd also like to see day & night and a rest animation too. The NPCs don't all need to have different activities during the night and day, but a few certainly could. Let 3-4 different NPCs do different things between day and night. Once again nothing I'm suggesting is special. Its all stuff that existed in games like Baldur's gate almost 20 years ago. Pretty standard stuff to expect from a Black Isle RPG.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by kilobug » March 8th, 2016, 3:52 am

anonymous6059 wrote:
kilobug wrote:It kills the fun, and it doesn't bring much in verisimilitude because it always feels a bit artificial
Seriously, your joking right? How does that make any sense? So when the NPCs stand in the same spot 24/7, always do the same thing, and the sun never sets its more realistic to you?
It's not more realistic, but it's not less so than having the NPC teleport in his shop at the right time, or whatever odd artifacts the day-night cycle always add. And unlike the artifacts of day-night cycles, it doesn't call attention, so the feeling of realism (verisimilitude) is indeed higher (at least to me) with no day-night cycle. It's like you almost never see NPC (or PC, for that matter) go to the bathroom or whatever similar, and you just don't think about it - but do it in a (necessarily) not realistic way, and it will draw attention upon it and hurts the verisimilitude.

But the main aspect is it really kill the fun, add burdensome considerations to the player, without bringing much (unless perhaps the game really exploit the day-night cycle, with day-night based abilities for PCs and NPCs, but even then it tends to add more cumbersome, useless "oh I'll just wait" and doesn't bring much fun).

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Re: Day&Night

Post by kaiman » March 8th, 2016, 4:25 am

anonymous6059 wrote:
kilobug wrote:It kills the fun, and it doesn't bring much in verisimilitude because it always feels a bit artificial
Seriously, your joking right? How does that make any sense? So when the NPCs stand in the same spot 24/7, always do the same thing, and the sun never sets its more realistic to you?
I think a proper day/night cycle needs more effort than the pure visual effects and maybe opening hours of stores. If there isn't really a concept of the passage of time in the underlying game mechanics, day/night cycles somehow do feel artificial. I guess they are better suited for sandbox games (though even there more often than not nothing ever happens unless forced by the player).

In a game like TToN, it might make more sense to use a specific time of the day (or night) to set the overall mood for an area. Honestly, I do not remember if Pillars of Eternity had day and night. If so, it was of no consequence and thus not really memorable.
anonymous6059 wrote:Anyway, I don't really want a ton of time sensitive quest myself, but a few does sound interesting. [...] Peppering the game with 3-4 things like that would just be great and I hope it happens. [...] The NPCs don't all need to have different activities during the night and day, but a few certainly could. Let 3-4 different NPCs do different things between day and night.
That's exactly what I'd rather avoid. Either the whole world gets affected (i.e. simulates passage of time and have things happening because of that) or it doesn't. In latter case it is still possible to have things happen based on player action (i.e. sleep before solving the murder and another NPC dies), but player inaction should not have any consequences. A mixture of both will only serve to generate unexpected and inconsistent behaviour.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by anonymous6059 » March 8th, 2016, 5:32 am

kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:
kilobug wrote:It kills the fun, and it doesn't bring much in verisimilitude because it always feels a bit artificial
Seriously, your joking right? How does that make any sense? So when the NPCs stand in the same spot 24/7, always do the same thing, and the sun never sets its more realistic to you?
It's not more realistic, but it's not less so than having the NPC teleport in his shop at the right time, or whatever odd artifacts the day-night cycle always add. And unlike the artifacts of day-night cycles, it doesn't call attention, so the feeling of realism (verisimilitude) is indeed higher (at least to me) with no day-night cycle. It's like you almost never see NPC (or PC, for that matter) go to the bathroom or whatever similar, and you just don't think about it - but do it in a (necessarily) not realistic way, and it will draw attention upon it and hurts the verisimilitude.

But the main aspect is it really kill the fun, add burdensome considerations to the player, without bringing much (unless perhaps the game really exploit the day-night cycle, with day-night based abilities for PCs and NPCs, but even then it tends to add more cumbersome, useless "oh I'll just wait" and doesn't bring much fun).
Okay now I understand what your saying. I personally don't find if more burdensome by itself though. The level of burden that a game has depends on how the quest are made. Just because a NPCs steps inside his home at night doesn't mean you have to wait 12 hours to find him. You could just walk inside the house and wake him. Its really just depends on how they do it. Some regular quest can be burdensome regardless of day/night cycles. Though I suppose the fact that people move around might make the game slightly more taxing on the player. That being only because you have to actually look around for the NPCs instead of just knowing where everyone is all the time because they can't move at all. The only time that I like for NPCs to stand still is when they are merchants. The rest of them can walk around in a small radius of their original location.

Anyway, If its not in the game its not big deal either way. Though I still would like to see the day/night cycle even if it doesn't do anything. It bothers me to rest and find that nothing at all changed. I mean just for an aesthetic it would be nice. I also am kind of annoyed that Inxile seems to be struggling to just reproduce stuff from 20 years ago. How in the world they could of spent 3 years working on the game and never think to include the rest animation is unbelievable. I mean just for aesthetics sake they could of added a few things. Though I must admit the game has the best writing I've ever seen. I'm just hoping that that's what they've been focused on and they're just now getting around to add those bells and whistles I'd like to see.

Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gOA2NgDESc

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Re: Day&Night

Post by sear » March 8th, 2016, 5:47 pm

Torment does not have a typical always-running day/night cycle. Rather, time simply passes every time the player chooses to sleep.

This causes certain quests to advance and the game world may change. All of this content is scripted by hand, it's not really systemic (though we may include some systemic elements).

Spoilery examples from the beta content:

- Houses in Cliff's Edge fall into the sea if you wait too long
- NPCs in the Circles in Red quest get murdered each day

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Re: Day&Night

Post by anonymous6059 » March 8th, 2016, 6:26 pm

sear wrote:Torment does not have a typical always-running day/night cycle. Rather, time simply passes every time the player chooses to sleep.

This causes certain quests to advance and the game world may change. All of this content is scripted by hand, it's not really systemic (though we may include some systemic elements).

Spoilery examples from the beta content:

- Houses in Cliff's Edge fall into the sea if you wait too long
- NPCs in the Circles in Red quest get murdered each day
Thank you very much for answering my question Sear. I'm not too worried that a day/night cycle won't be in the game. I'm pretty sure Wastelands 2 didn't have one so I won't be shocked if TToN doesn't either. It does make for a nice visual for me personally though. Its nice to see that time has progressed in some way or another. I really like what Inxile has done with this "systemic system" you mentioned. Honestly I have no clue how it all works but I know its got to be extremely complex. I've only done one run-through of the beta so far but its looking really good. I know I criticize the game a lot, but I still think its going to be a great game.

Still, if any of you Developers ever read this please add a rest animation to the game, PLEASE!!! Its very meaningful and something that you always remember. Little oddities like that are some of the most memorable parts of a game.

If I was going to design it I'd take these two images below and mesh them together.

Image
Image
Just an idea... Anyway, thanks for replying. I was dying to know about it
Alright..alright I'm going back into my basement now.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by Biggrin » March 9th, 2016, 6:15 am

anonymous6059 wrote:Anyway, If its not in the game its not big deal either way. Though I still would like to see the day/night cycle even if it doesn't do anything. It bothers me to rest and find that nothing at all changed. I mean just for an aesthetic it would be nice. I also am kind of annoyed that Inxile seems to be struggling to just reproduce stuff from 20 years ago. How in the world they could of spent 3 years working on the game and never think to include the rest animation is unbelievable. I mean just for aesthetics sake they could of added a few things. Though I must admit the game has the best writing I've ever seen. I'm just hoping that that's what they've been focused on and they're just now getting around to add those bells and whistles I'd like to see.
I often wonder mesen when games a quarter o a century ago could produce livin worlds wi NPC schedules, environmental intetraction, day/night cycles, rest animations, numerous forms o transport, wide and fun list o game changing spells, whole lorryload o side content to do other than combat an conversation, an all set in a narrative wi strong thematic relevance, why modern games twenty five years later can't match that as routine. Guess all this talk about evolution an innovation is so much hot air.

Course it dunt elp when you've got fanboys campaignin for less an less, askin less o developers an excusin owt they do or don't do. One time we used to ask for more quality content, gameworlds that were livin an breathin an not just painted backdrops, NPCs that had some dignity an agency rather than being just slaves to player, now all we get is everythin abstracted away cos precious player convenience can't be hampered at all.

Keep fightin good fight matey.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by kaiman » March 9th, 2016, 7:35 am

Biggrin wrote:I often wonder mesen when games a quarter o a century ago could produce livin worlds wi NPC schedules, environmental intetraction, day/night cycles, rest animations, numerous forms o transport, wide and fun list o game changing spells, whole lorryload o side content to do other than combat an conversation, an all set in a narrative wi strong thematic relevance, why modern games twenty five years later can't match that as routine.
That's what I am wondering as well. (And it is the reason why Ultima VII is still my #1 RPG of all time).

I can understand that TToN has a different focus and simply hasn't the budget to go to great lengths beyond that. And doing so might not go down well with all the fans that expect a faithtful successor to PS:T. (Which absolutely should include a resting animation, btw :-))

But even with AAA productions, those things that had been achieved in the past are no longer there. I blame the fixation on fancy 3D graphics that leave no room for actual content.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by Firkraag » March 9th, 2016, 12:28 pm

Biggrin wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:Anyway, If its not in the game its not big deal either way. Though I still would like to see the day/night cycle even if it doesn't do anything. It bothers me to rest and find that nothing at all changed. I mean just for an aesthetic it would be nice. I also am kind of annoyed that Inxile seems to be struggling to just reproduce stuff from 20 years ago. How in the world they could of spent 3 years working on the game and never think to include the rest animation is unbelievable. I mean just for aesthetics sake they could of added a few things. Though I must admit the game has the best writing I've ever seen. I'm just hoping that that's what they've been focused on and they're just now getting around to add those bells and whistles I'd like to see.
I often wonder mesen when games a quarter o a century ago could produce living worlds with NPC schedules, environmental intetraction, day/night cycles, rest animations, numerous forms o transport, wide and fun list o game changing spells, whole lorryload o side content to do other than combat an conversation, an all set in a narrative with strong thematic relevance, why modern games twenty five years later can't match that as routine. Guess all this talk about evolution an innovation is so much hot air.
Oh, that one is easy. They didn't. You're pretty much exaggerating.

Actual games 15-25 years ago were magnitudes simler, for once. Economy was different, market was different, hardware was different, software was different, development cycles were shorter and more importantly gamers today are different, both new blood and old school: less picky, more enchanted by digital worlds (and those worlds were much easier to create), less interconnected, less offensible and not as instanly angry/whiny. Oh, and there was a lot of shitty games back then, as well, completely forgotten today.

Oh, and one little details, devs would never mention in Kickstarter - a genre wall cilinically dead for years. There was no way for funding and keeping it alive. Even while they great at making these games back then, it's not what they did for the last 15 years. They did different games, so now it's more or less, uncharted waters. Development, game design, management, monitoring of fanbase.

With all that. There's a friggin lot of games out there, I bet any one of us here, barely knows about third of those games. There are games, that "produce worlds with NPC schedules, environmental intetraction, day/night cycles, rest animations, numerous forms o transport, wide and fun list o game changing spells, whole lorryload o side content to do other than combat an conversation, an all set in a narrative with strong thematic relevance", but those for some reason go under our radars: they are simpler, they have bad reputation in eyes general public, or studio didn't have money for advertising, or it has core gameplay, you personally don't like, etc. etc.

Anyway, with all due respect, it's not that simple. I believe, 20 years from that people will remember two dozen of modern games and will say, that games got simpler, stupidier and stuff.
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Re: Day&Night

Post by Biggrin » March 10th, 2016, 8:09 am

Magic! Gis us a few names matey.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by Aldereth » March 25th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Day and Night, daily routine adds to immersion in a open world sand box kind of games like Ultima series or the Elder scroll series. A narrative driven game like this one, I feel that it's bells and whistles, nice if there is budget and resource for it.

Meanwhile, evolving state of various locations or characters in the game due to passage of time or plot would be important in any cRPG and something I would like to see in TTON.

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Re: Day&Night

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 25th, 2016, 2:26 pm

anonymous6059 wrote: Seriously, your joking right? How does that make any sense? So when the NPCs stand in the same spot 24/7, always do the same thing, and the sun never sets its more realistic to you?.
It's no more realistic than artificially speeding up time so you can shop. It's a choice between two bad options. The difference being, one annoys the shit out of everybody, and the other annoys the shit out of 3 people who confuse video games with real life simulator.
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