What can Change the Nature of a Man?

For discussing Torment's story as it slowly gets unveiled, as well as discussing the game's setting. Ninth World discussions encouraged. Spoilers allowed.

Moderator: Memovira Goons

Lightzy
Acolyte
Posts: 52
Joined: September 26th, 2014, 11:18 pm

Re: What can Change the Nature of a Man?

Post by Lightzy » March 6th, 2016, 2:59 pm

According to the wisdom of kaballah, there are no "grey areas". It would not be scientific.
There is human nature; self-love, and there is the Creator's nature; the love of others.

2 forces, and nothing other than them exists. Even all of the matter you see in the material world is just a reflection of the interaction of these 2 forces within you. But it is still very exact. As in, with the color grey you can tell exactly what ratio of y/r/b made this exact shade of grey.
The purpose of creation was to give man, with the nature of self love, the free choice to change his nature to be like the Creator.
As soon as a man WANTS to do it, his nature begins changing. If someone wants to know what real love is, then they begin to change, and are ultimately drawn to the wisdom that teaches how to facilitate this change.

That's it :)



Until man's nature is "corrected", like the Creator's, it teaches that ANY movement you make, you make only because it gives you fulfillment, to your self-love. If you move your arm slightly to the side, it's because you felt it would make you happier. If you sit a certain way, it's because you felt it would satisfy you better than the previous position. And so with every single thing a person does.

Therefore there is also no love in this world. Which is why the Creator's nature is called "Love". It is above this world.
In this world there is only what the wisdom of kaballah jokingly refers to "the love of fish".
Like you hear ppl say, "Oh, I love fish!".... You love EATING fish. You love yourself.
Same, if you hear someone says "I love my wife", no, you love how your wife makes you happy/satisfied. That is why, in most cases, when the couple cease giving happiness to one another, they divorce. If they actually loved each other, and not themselves, there would be no divorce/breakups in the world.

True love of others is a good goal, it's the purpose of creation, after all, and the nature of the Creator, but it is best we do not confuse ourselves by saying we have it in our grasp already. But then again, all you have to do is to truly want this nature to change, and it starts happening.

User avatar
Aramintai
Scholar
Posts: 199
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 12:15 pm

Re: What can Change the Nature of a Man?

Post by Aramintai » March 7th, 2016, 6:10 am

I think there was an option in the game to choose belief.

The game was made in Planescape setting where belief is everything - it shapes the planes themselves, creates gods and banishes them into oblivion. Belief is also a recurring if not a major theme in the game - you can believe a man named Adahn into existence, you can help grow razorvine in the Hive through sheer power of belief, you can shift a whole city from one plane to the other by changing its citizens' belief alignment. So if anything can change the nature of man in that setting it is belief - if you believe hard enough in something there it will become a reality. And reality of the planes is this - if you die your first life as a terrible sinner you go to the lower planes until your penance is paid and then you die your final death by merging with your designated plane.

This is what TNO was trying to avoid in the first place - he did some unspeakable act(s) of evil in his first life, that guaranteed an eternity in the Lower Planes, and wanted enough time to make amends. Thus he asked Ravel for help. She tried to change the nature of TNO by making him immortal to make him free from facing his punishment, but ultimately broke him and he forgot the very reason why he wanted to be immortal in the first place. The planes are not routed that easily.

To really change the way of how things work in the planes would require to change belief itself of how the whole Planescape multiverse works. And how could one night hag, though powerful, change belief of countless Prime worlds? Not even gods can truly accomplish such a task.

So "belief" answer may as well be "nothing" answer to someone like Ravel, who, although quite powerful and knowledgeable in her own way, is just another denizen of the planes, shaped by nightmarish beliefs of the Primes. For her, changing the nature of a man was beyond impossible. But then again, the real answer stopped mattering to her a long time ago, in the end all she wanted was TNO's opinion and approval, as she was obviously fixated on him, just as she was on unraveling the impossible puzzles. He was her unsolvable puzzle that left her with an unsolvable question.
Image

User avatar
anonymous6059
Adventurer
Posts: 785
Joined: January 5th, 2016, 6:45 pm

Re: What can Change the Nature of a Man?

Post by anonymous6059 » March 7th, 2016, 8:07 am

Aramintai wrote:I think there was an option in the game to choose belief.

The game was made in Planescape setting where belief is everything - it shapes the planes themselves, creates gods and banishes them into oblivion. Belief is also a recurring if not a major theme in the game - you can believe a man named Adahn into existence, you can help grow razorvine in the Hive through sheer power of belief, you can shift a whole city from one plane to the other by changing its citizens' belief alignment. So if anything can change the nature of man in that setting it is belief - if you believe hard enough in something there it will become a reality. And reality of the planes is this - if you die your first life as a terrible sinner you go to the lower planes until your penance is paid and then you die your final death by merging with your designated plane.

This is what TNO was trying to avoid in the first place - he did some unspeakable act(s) of evil in his first life, that guaranteed an eternity in the Lower Planes, and wanted enough time to make amends. Thus he asked Ravel for help. She tried to change the nature of TNO by making him immortal to make him free from facing his punishment, but ultimately broke him and he forgot the very reason why he wanted to be immortal in the first place. The planes are not routed that easily.

To really change the way of how things work in the planes would require to change belief itself of how the whole Planescape multiverse works. And how could one night hag, though powerful, change belief of countless Prime worlds? Not even gods can truly accomplish such a task.

So "belief" answer may as well be "nothing" answer to someone like Ravel, who, although quite powerful and knowledgeable in her own way, is just another denizen of the planes, shaped by nightmarish beliefs of the Primes. For her, changing the nature of a man was beyond impossible. But then again, the real answer stopped mattering to her a long time ago, in the end all she wanted was TNO's opinion and approval, as she was obviously fixated on him, just as she was on unraveling the impossible puzzles. He was her unsolvable puzzle that left her with an unsolvable question.
I just wanted to say thank you for replying. That had to be the most well thought out answer I've ever seen. Still, I'm not completely sure you straightforwardly answered the question though. I got the impression your saying its either unanswerable or that its both "nothing" and "belief". Since the immortality that Ravel created was so flawed it wouldn't actually count as true immortality. That would mean that *belief* can't change the nature of a man because all men must first believe in changing their nature and that would never happen. So it kind of becomes a chicken and egg problem? Nothing could ever change human nature because it would take everyone believing they could in order for it to happen. So that seems to indicate that the real answer would be: Nothing can change the nature of a man.

Anyway, Still thank you for that detailed and very interesting reply... You've certainly got me thinking.

User avatar
Aramintai
Scholar
Posts: 199
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 12:15 pm

Re: What can Change the Nature of a Man?

Post by Aramintai » March 7th, 2016, 8:43 am

anonymous6059 wrote: I just wanted to say thank you for replying. That had to be the most well thought out answer I've ever seen. Still, I'm not completely sure you straightforwardly answered the question though. I got the impression your saying its either unanswerable or that its both "nothing" and "belief". Since the immortality that Ravel created was so flawed it wouldn't actually count as true immortality. That would mean that *belief* can't change the nature of a man because all men must first believe in changing their nature and that would never happen. So it kind of becomes a chicken and egg problem? Nothing could ever change human nature because it would take everyone believing they could in order for it to happen. So that seems to indicate that the real answer would be: Nothing can change the nature of a man.
Sorry for being confusing, I started delving deeper into why Ravel couldn't change the nature of a man. My answer is still belief, but it is based on perspective. Basically, to change something so fundamental as the very rules by which the planes turn requires amount of belief way beyond one person, even if it's someone as powerful as Ravel. So from her perspective the answer is "nothing" - she alone could not change the nature of man.
But if you look in general, in a greater scope, if a huge collective of Primes started to believe in TNO as their god - he'd truly become immortal. Or if they stopped believing in Lower Planes afterlife for the wicked - those planes would change or even stop existing altogether. But achieving such epic feats as godhood or belief change on a massive scale are certainly much harder and more time consuming goals and TNO, it seems, was running out of time so he chose Ravel's help.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest