A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

For discussing Torment's story, setting, and characters. Ninth World discussions encouraged. Spoilers allowed.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 23rd, 2016, 4:52 pm

Tides wrote: For me Numenera would be boring if it's point and click adventure with hardly any combat. In Pillars even the so called trash mobs are quite challenging.
That's exactly how I feel too.

Now let me praise the game for a second:
I haven't tried the beta, but from what I've watched on youtube and twitch the lore, depth, and look are all amazing. I feel like I could really get lost playing through TToN. I think it would take several play throughs to really absorb all the work the developers have put into this game. Its almost more of a work of art than a game.

That's the only problem though, that they might be seeing the game as only art and not as a video game. Which I mean is okay if that's what they want to do. I'm still going to play the game. I just don't know if it's going to hold my attention and challenge me in the same way that POE or Baldur's Gate has done.

My solution is to just make it where different choices in the game create increased combat encounters. I'm thinking about how in Baldur's Gate, when being caught stealing the guards or in BG2 when you'd use magic in that one town. Just give TToN a handful of bizarre rules that you wouldn't break normally but which you could just to have some fun. After having done whatever rule-breaking activity you'd then be hit by respawning enemies every time you entered that area. This way its not just a silly toggle option, though I'd be fine with that. Instead it would make the game even more realistic really. Example, you walk into a section of the city which has an affinity for nature. You find a sign that says in large text, "DO NOT WALK ON GRASS". If you do then from that point on random hippies try and attack you.

That's what I'd do If I knew anything about making games.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by Tides » February 23rd, 2016, 11:59 pm

kilobug wrote:
Tides wrote:Even Planescape Torment has respawning enemies in some areas
Yes, but they were clear in the Kickstarter that TTON will be a "no trash mobs" game.
Tides wrote:and Tides is supposed to have at least two or more cities. I don't believe you'll just jump through portals between them when they showed world map with huge wilderness areas.
What I meant by "city-based" is that most of the gameplay will be in urban settings, but yes it'll spawn at least 3 cities.

You'll use an airship to travel from one to another. It's not known yet (at least to me) how you'll travel to other locations, but "by foot" seems unlikely - either you'll join some kind of caravan, or use portals, or ... but there won't be much of foot-based cross-country travel (like in the original PST).
This sounds really disappointing If you really can't explore outside cities. I doubt that it'll have freeroam world but at least it should have a map where you choose locations like games like Baldur's Gate/Pillars/Tactical jrpgs and on this map should be locations outside of cities.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by Tides » February 24th, 2016, 12:08 am

anonymous6059 wrote:
Tides wrote: For me Numenera would be boring if it's point and click adventure with hardly any combat. In Pillars even the so called trash mobs are quite challenging.
That's exactly how I feel too.

Now let me praise the game for a second:
I haven't tried the beta, but from what I've watched on youtube and twitch the lore, depth, and look are all amazing. I feel like I could really get lost playing through TToN. I think it would take several play throughs to really absorb all the work the developers have put into this game. Its almost more of a work of art than a game.

That's the only problem though, that they might be seeing the game as only art and not as a video game. Which I mean is okay if that's what they want to do. I'm still going to play the game. I just don't know if it's going to hold my attention and challenge me in the same way that POE or Baldur's Gate has done.

My solution is to just make it where different choices in the game create increased combat encounters. I'm thinking about how in Baldur's Gate, when being caught stealing the guards or in BG2 when you'd use magic in that one town. Just give TToN a handful of bizarre rules that you wouldn't break normally but which you could just to have some fun. After having done whatever rule-breaking activity you'd then be hit by respawning enemies every time you entered that area. This way its not just a silly toggle option, though I'd be fine with that. Instead it would make the game even more realistic really. Example, you walk into a section of the city which has an affinity for nature. You find a sign that says in large text, "DO NOT WALK ON GRASS". If you do then from that point on random hippies try and attack you.

That's what I'd do If I knew anything about making games.
I also hope there is going to be big bestiary not only humans and humanoids Numenera has many non-humanoid monsters.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by kilobug » February 24th, 2016, 12:58 am

Tides wrote:Indeed adding difficulty modes with more encounters is a good idea there could also be special modes like Trial of Iron and Path of The Damned from Pillars of Eternity and partly randomly generated enemy placement could be interesting too. Planescape Torment had plenty of combat even if that combat was poorly implemented compared to other Ininity Engine games.
Well, that's not really the purpose of the game - PoE is in many ways closer to IWD than to PST, much more combat-focused, making such challenges quite logical, but not that much in a Torment game.

If we want something like that, it should have some in-game reasons and lore, and thematically fuse with the rest of the game - a bit like the Modron Cube in PST. Repeatable combat at different difficulty levels, but completely fused in the game lore and full of funny and thought-provoking references. Just a little less boring that the Modron Cube where the combats were way too much of the same.

Would be nice in absolute, but not sure it's worth the effort it would require.
Tides wrote:For me Numenera would be boring if it's point and click adventure with hardly any combat.
There will be opportunity for combat in most of the crisis, and there will be many mini-crisis. But even without combat, it's not "just" a point-and-click adventure game. Your skills and abilities will be usable in dialogs and interaction with the environment tasks, your character development and your choices will influence what you can do in the game and at how difficult it'll be, even outside combat - like in PST.
Tides wrote:In Pillars even the so called trash mobs are quite challenging.
For me (but sure, it's highly subjective) Pillars was a bit boring (especially the second half of the game) due to too many trash mobs and "mindless" combats, it felt more like playing IWD (which I never liked much) than like playing BG or PST. I've heard on the latest version they reduced the number of fights and increased their individual difficulty during Act 3, I'll give it another try.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by kilobug » February 24th, 2016, 1:08 am

anonymous6059 wrote:Its almost more of a work of art than a game.
Well, that was true of PST too ;) It's both an artistic masterpiece and a game, the two aren't exclusive.
anonymous6059 wrote:I'm still going to play the game. I just don't know if it's going to hold my attention and challenge me in the same way that POE or Baldur's Gate has done.
Differs for people I guess, but as I said above PoE at times didn't hold my attention because of too many mindless fights. I prefer PST to BG, and BG to IWD, because of the emphasis on story and exploration rather than combat, and PoE was somewhere between BG and IWD to me - while I hope TToN will be faithful to PST or even better than it.
anonymous6059 wrote:I'm thinking about how in Baldur's Gate, when being caught stealing the guards or in BG2 when you'd use magic in that one town. Just give TToN a handful of bizarre rules that you wouldn't break normally but which you could just to have some fun. After having done whatever rule-breaking activity you'd then be hit by respawning enemies every time you entered that area.
That kind of stuff is quite immersion breaking to me, it lacks verisimilitude. You broke the laws, guards attacked you, you defeated the guards... and newt time you come, you see the same amount of guards, and they attack you again and again ? Feels very artificial and irrational. If you break the law and beat guards - well, you'll become "#1 most wanted person", they'll not just send again and again the amount of guards, but hundred of them so you have no chance to beat them, and everyone you'll interact too in the city will know you're a wanted criminal and be afraid or hostile to you (or try to recruit you, if they actually are rebels). Doing that well, in a way that doesn't break the verisimilitude requires handling far-reaching consequences and adjusting all the area (at least the city) to reflect your "wanted criminal" status.

That's why I was more thinking about something like the Modron Cube to give people replayable fights if they want it, but without breaking the immersion and the story, but quite the opposite, showing yet another facet of something weird but totally within the game lore.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by morte_rictusgrin » February 24th, 2016, 1:17 am

kilobug wrote:
If we want something like that, it should have some in-game reasons and lore, and thematically fuse with the rest of the game - a bit like the Modron Cube in PST. Repeatable combat at different difficulty levels, but completely fused in the game lore and full of funny and thought-provoking references. Just a little less boring that the Modron Cube where the combats were way too much of the same.

Would be nice in absolute, but not sure it's worth the effort it would require.
The whole Rubicon Maze is nothing but joke over D&D. It was designed to be boring and repeatable.
Undersigil, on the other hand, another XP grinding ground, always seemed to me like some unfinished location: doors must have been portals to somewhere, but, alas, it is just dead ends.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 24th, 2016, 4:13 am

kilobug wrote: That kind of stuff is quite immersion breaking to me, it lacks verisimilitude. You broke the laws, guards attacked you, you defeated the guards... and newt time you come, you see the same amount of guards, and they attack you again and again ? Feels very artificial and irrational. If you break the law and beat guards - well, you'll become "#1 most wanted person", they'll not just send again and again the amount of guards, but hundred of them so you have no chance to beat them, and everyone you'll interact too in the city will know you're a wanted criminal and be afraid or hostile to you (or try to recruit you, if they actually are rebels). Doing that well, in a way that doesn't break the verisimilitude requires handling far-reaching consequences and adjusting all the area (at least the city) to reflect your "wanted criminal" status.

That's why I was more thinking about something like the Modron Cube to give people replayable fights if they want it, but without breaking the immersion and the story, but quite the opposite, showing yet another facet of something weird but totally within the game lore.
I get that its annoying to always have the same number of enemies respawn everytime. So maybe it wouldn't be the best idea. I don't really agree though with the whole "most waned list" idea though. What you described would be similar to something like grand theft auto the video game. In this game who's to say that the city guards are that coordinated? Every time you'd come through an area you could just run into another skirmish of guards who are looking for a person of your description. They could simply want to question you or have you leave the city. It might not be quite the same, they might not view killing guards like we'd view killing a police officer. Lots of fantasy settings exist where the PC kill random people in bar fights, back alleys, or wherever and nobody gets arrested for it. Its not real life, its a fantasy game. So it doesn't seem to break any immersion for me at least. I do agree though that eventually people should start to catch on though. At some point after killing x number of town folks your just going to be overwhelmed with guards as soon as you enter the town and be refused services by merchants.

I like the idea about the Modron Cube except that it's too disconnected for me. I want something that will give me the option to join in combat once every.....say....20 min. Depending on my reaction to the situation I could avoid the fight. So i'd settle for the Modron's Cube if it were to find ways of working its way into the story periodically. Also, I'd need for there to be some kind of useful reason for accomplishing this task. For instance, by defeating 15 unique randomly generated bosses within the cube you receive a special bit of information, lore, memories, and a reward. Nothing that is needed to beat the game of course, just a few small extras. Oh and the corpses along the way would need to have a little bit of jink on them too. ;)

We got a deal? Now I just have to learn how to program....... See ya in 10 years.

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by Tides » February 24th, 2016, 4:52 am

anonymous6059 wrote:
kilobug wrote: That kind of stuff is quite immersion breaking to me, it lacks verisimilitude. You broke the laws, guards attacked you, you defeated the guards... and newt time you come, you see the same amount of guards, and they attack you again and again ? Feels very artificial and irrational. If you break the law and beat guards - well, you'll become "#1 most wanted person", they'll not just send again and again the amount of guards, but hundred of them so you have no chance to beat them, and everyone you'll interact too in the city will know you're a wanted criminal and be afraid or hostile to you (or try to recruit you, if they actually are rebels). Doing that well, in a way that doesn't break the verisimilitude requires handling far-reaching consequences and adjusting all the area (at least the city) to reflect your "wanted criminal" status.

That's why I was more thinking about something like the Modron Cube to give people replayable fights if they want it, but without breaking the immersion and the story, but quite the opposite, showing yet another facet of something weird but totally within the game lore.
I get that its annoying to always have the same number of enemies respawn everytime. So maybe it wouldn't be the best idea. I don't really agree though with the whole "most waned list" idea though. What you described would be similar to something like grand theft auto the video game. In this game who's to say that the city guards are that coordinated? Every time you'd come through an area you could just run into another skirmish of guards who are looking for a person of your description. They could simply want to question you or have you leave the city. It might not be quite the same, they might not view killing guards like we'd view killing a police officer. Lots of fantasy settings exist where the PC kill random people in bar fights, back alleys, or wherever and nobody gets arrested for it. Its not real life, its a fantasy game. So it doesn't seem to break any immersion for me at least. I do agree though that eventually people should start to catch on though. At some point after killing x number of town folks your just going to be overwhelmed with guards as soon as you enter the town and be refused services by merchants.

I like the idea about the Modron Cube except that it's too disconnected for me. I want something that will give me the option to join in combat once every.....say....20 min. Depending on my reaction to the situation I could avoid the fight. So i'd settle for the Modron's Cube if it were to find ways of working its way into the story periodically. Also, I'd need for there to be some kind of useful reason for accomplishing this task. For instance, by defeating 15 unique randomly generated bosses within the cube you receive a special bit of information, lore, memories, and a reward. Nothing that is needed to beat the game of course, just a few small extras. Oh and the corpses along the way would need to have a little bit of jink on them too. ;)

We got a deal? Now I just have to learn how to program....... See ya in 10 years.
There should be a lot to the numer of guards since Numenera's population seem to be limited. So if you kill enough of guards they stop coming after because all are dead. Cowled Wizards are limited in BG2. There also could be randomly generated headhunters and mercenaries who attack you if you're a criminal. There also could be randomly generated animals and creatures outside of cities,

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Re: A look at writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by kilobug » February 24th, 2016, 11:35 am

Tides wrote:There should be a lot to the numer of guards since Numenera's population seem to be limited.
Well, according the Numenéra corebook, cities in the Steadfast are up to like 80 000 people with many at or above 20 000. Torment is not in the Steadfast, but the cities we visit in the game aren't small villages, more big regional hugs, so a population above 20 000 isn't unlikely. Even if 1% is part of law enforcement (soldiers, police, militia, bodyguards, ...) that makes 200 of them - if you start killing a dozen, there is no way they'll let you go and you won't face an overwhelming army. You can't openly kill law enforcement officers and yet walk in daylight and do business as usual, that's asking too much of suspension of disbelief.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 24th, 2016, 1:55 pm

Well lets just scratch the whole Guard thing. Kind of feel its...not seeing the forest for the trees. The point was that through dialogue options or your actions you could cause different groups to attack you. Another example that comes to mind is the tanar'ri, think its the tanar'ri at least, that wander around the hive. They just wander around doing their own thing not messing with you. However, if you continuously try and talk to them or provoke them they'll attack you. The reason why I think this is the solution is because its the most realistic way to do it without having to add difficulty modes. To make things even more fair make sure that both players who do and those who don't attack are both rewarded. If you manage to make it through the game without killing anyone you just absolutely felt had to die then you should get a special reward, legacy, whatever. Same thing if you decide to kill every person that looks at you funny. That's the best part about role-playing games, well at least good ones, you decide how you want to play it.

My super amazing solution would:
1. make it where we don't need "trash mobs"
2. Don't need to try and add several difficulties.
3. Should add to the impressiveness of the game.
4. Lastly, It would make me happy and keep me from getting bored. I mean what could be more important? ;)

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by kilobug » February 25th, 2016, 12:34 am

anonymous6059 wrote:Another example that comes to mind is the tanar'ri, think its the tanar'ri at least, that wander around the hive. They just wander around doing their own thing not messing with you. However, if you continuously try and talk to them or provoke them they'll attack you.
Yes, the Tanar'ri things works pretty well, because the Hive is a place with virtually no law enforcement (the Harmonium avoids it), and because Tanar'ri aren't liked by most people, and because they're the ones actually starting the fight - but it takes lots of conditions for it to work out decently, not sure they'll be met in TTON.
anonymous6059 wrote:Same thing if you decide to kill every person that looks at you funny. That's the best part about role-playing games, well at least good ones, you decide how you want to play it.
Well, the problem is with _computer_ role-playing games. In pen&paper game, sure, do whatever you want - and the GM will handle the (possibly dire) consequences. Kill random people - someone may then blackmail you because they saw you, you might be arrested or otherwise have problems with law enforcement, the brother of someone you killed may hire assassins and send them against you, a mind-reading NPC somewhere in other city may deny you help, whatever.

But in a computer game, it's much harder to give lots of freedom to the player, and yet have the game react in meaningful and interesting ways to what you do. That's part of why I didn't like much the Elder Scrolls games (at least Oblivion and Morrowing, the two I tried), because you've virtually total freedom in them, but basically no consequence of your actions, that's very shallow and empty freedom.

Torment is supposed to be a game with lots of "reactivity", where your choices actually matter and change the way NPCs will react to you, ... in a computer game, making the choices meaningful and deep also means they have to be limited. TTON will not give you complete freedom (it's story-based, not open world), but the freedom you will have, the choice you'll make will matter. That's IMHO what's important - and it doesn't really allow to "kill every person that looks at you funny".

So while I would be fine with more opportunity to pick up fights if you chose to do so (there will be some outside of Crisis, not sure how many), you've to keep in mind that it's not that simple, to be done well it needs lots of work behind it, crafting consequences for your choice.
anonymous6059 wrote:4. Lastly, It would make me happy and keep me from getting bored. I mean what could be more important? ;)
Well, making people happy is definitely important in a game :) But if you need "random fights" to not get bored in a Torment game, it's somewhat worrisome. Take the under-Sigil fights, the Modron Cube, and the hive fights (Tanar'ri/thugs) out of PST and it would still be an amazing game - shorter game, a bit less fun for some players perhaps, but it wouldn't become boring.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 25th, 2016, 8:45 am

kilobug wrote: But in a computer game, it's much harder to give lots of freedom to the player, and yet have the game react in meaningful and interesting ways to what you do. That's part of why I didn't like much the Elder Scrolls games (at least Oblivion and Morrowing, the two I tried), because you've virtually total freedom in them, but basically no consequence of your actions, that's very shallow and empty freedom.

Torment is supposed to be a game with lots of "reactivity", where your choices actually matter and change the way NPCs will react to you, ... in a computer game, making the choices meaningful and deep also means they have to be limited. TTON will not give you complete freedom (it's story-based, not open world), but the freedom you will have, the choice you'll make will matter. That's IMHO what's important - and it doesn't really allow to "kill every person that looks at you funny".

So while I would be fine with more opportunity to pick up fights if you chose to do so (there will be some outside of Crisis, not sure how many), you've to keep in mind that it's not that simple, to be done well it needs lots of work behind it, crafting consequences for your choice.
I understand that in developing this kind of game something like the "wheat and chessboard problem" will exist. The more stuff that you try and add the more branches need to be made. It gets to become a exponential amount at some point that's not something any developers would attempt. However, that doesn't mean you can't have some "shallow" choices in the game. Don't get me wrong I totally agree with what your saying. I also really want the game to focus "almost" exclusively on having a ton of reactivity. I'd just like some dead ends too.

Example, Baldur's gate (yep I'm resorting to using this game as an example yet again)
You could try and kill anyone. Some NPCs, the ones which were necessary for the continuation of the main quests, could even be killed. Yet, in order to kill these Necessary NPCs you'd basically have to throw everything you had into it over and over and over before you'd succeed. This would often be used as a red flag that you were trying to break the game. If you did succeed then the reactivity would be pretty much game breaking. You'd have to revert back to a prior save. Similarly in TToN you could arrange a similar, but hopefully more interesting, way of accomplishing the same thing.

From my experience this is pretty much the same thing that would also happen in a real Table top game. The DM normally has a general direction that the group is supposed to be heading in, a main quest. If the group really wants to be a pain and totally ruin the DMs entire weeks preparation some DMs, most from my experience, will make you pay for messing stuff up. If while playing TToN you decide to kill the merchant cause your bored or just don't like him you should be able to do it. If he has some information that was crucial to the story later on then make that merchant a real tough guy. Maybe even throw up and flag saying that this is really not a good idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2aV_pIS4rY
(this is pretty much how every dnd session I've been part of has gone.)

If a game from 1998 could find a way to make it work I think we should be able to come up with something in 2016.
Last edited by anonymous6059 on February 25th, 2016, 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 25th, 2016, 8:56 am

kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:4. Lastly, It would make me happy and keep me from getting bored. I mean what could be more important? ;)
Well, making people happy is definitely important in a game :) But if you need "random fights" to not get bored in a Torment game, it's somewhat worrisome. Take the under-Sigil fights, the Modron Cube, and the hive fights (Tanar'ri/thugs) out of PST and it would still be an amazing game - shorter game, a bit less fun for some players perhaps, but it wouldn't become boring.
See if you take all those fights out of the game I really do think it would suffer though. Firstly, I'd never worry with picking up anything if I knew that I never needed to worry about weapons, armor, jink, or anything on a corpse. This in itself would ruin another thing that I enjoy inventory management. It might not ruin it but I do think the game would suffer from not having those things. Its all about variety. Its about being reading a bit, fighting for a few, then upgrading your armor, buying some weapons, the reading for a bit.

Don't get me wrong though I'll still play the game and it might be the best game of all time. I'm just saying that for a lot of people myself included it might be difficult to get into it. Another example would be the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe. I'm having the hardest time reading his books. Its just going over my head, but I'm still trying to enjoy it. I hope that if I stick with it that I'll eventually love it. Its just not the easiest read for me. I think that's what this game will be like. Lots of people will be like waiting around to get to kill something and get fed up and quit.

Hopefully I'm wrong though.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by kilobug » February 25th, 2016, 9:17 am

anonymous6059 wrote:See if you take all those fights out of the game I really do think it would suffer though. Firstly, I'd never worry with picking up anything if I knew that I never needed to worry about weapons, armor, jink, or anything on a corpse.
Well, I was speaking about the removing the "mindless" fights (thugs, Tanar'ri, under-Sigil, ...) not removing the plot-related fights (cranium rats/undead king, Ravel's maze, Trias, Transcendant One, ...). You will still have many opportunity for fights in TTON even if you remove all repeatable, random or "trash mob" fights.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by Drool » February 26th, 2016, 12:08 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:If the group really wants to be a pain and totally ruin the DMs entire weeks preparation some DMs, most from my experience, will make you pay for messing stuff up.
Group I was in ruined six months of GM planning. He spent close to a year plotting and working before he got his revenge.
anonymous6059 wrote:If he has some information that was crucial to the story later on then make that merchant a real tough guy.
What? No. Why should every random nobody who just so happens to have important information suddenly by hyper badass ninja-Glaives? That's just as annoying as Bethesda's invincible NPCs. If a squishy merchant has plot-critical information and you kill him, tough luck. Inform the player afterwards. Maybe have a second, more difficult path (like if you killed Vivec in Morrowind), or maybe you just shouldn't be a goddamn pyschopath.

But this stuff about making NPCs invincible or turning random hobos into warrior gods is for the birds.
anonymous6059 wrote:I think that's what this game will be like. Lots of people will be like waiting around to get to kill something and get fed up and quit.
Well, that's bound to happen with a somewhat high concept game. And there's no polite way to say it, but... this game isn't going to be for everybody, and they're not trying to make it be for everybody.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 26th, 2016, 5:30 pm

Drool wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:If he has some information that was crucial to the story later on then make that merchant a real tough guy.
What? No. Why should every random nobody who just so happens to have important information suddenly by hyper badass ninja-Glaives? That's just as annoying as Bethesda's invincible NPCs. If a squishy merchant has plot-critical information and you kill him, tough luck. Inform the player afterwards. Maybe have a second, more difficult path (like if you killed Vivec in Morrowind), or maybe you just shouldn't be a goddamn pyschopath.

But this stuff about making NPCs invincible or turning random hobos into warrior gods is for the birds.
I feel like your kind of taking what I was discussing out of context. I didn't mean to imply that everyone would be very tough to kill. Only that everyone should be kill-able in the first place and that those few NPCs who are absolutely needed and who shouldn't die should still be able to be killed. Just that it should be difficult as a warning of sorts. Not many people enjoy spending 30+ hours only to discover that they shouldn't of killed the princess in level 1. Not every single action in the game has to be "reactive", needing entirely separate quest branches. The person I was talking with felt that they just didn't have the resources and time to create a game that had that level of depth and reactivity. I was saying that I'd rather play a game where you can try and attack anyone you choose rather then play a game where some people just can't be hurt even if that meant some choices would have shallow consequences. For the most part I'd of course prefer that the game have new quest options available even if I killed every single person I met. The idea is that you should be able to complete the game in any fashion you wished. That even those short attention spanned players that tried to hack slash their way to the end should have something. I feel like this would be more in the vein of PST or other black isle infinity engine games compared to a point and click where you just talk.

This really all came about though because I was suggesting that a interesting why to have more combat in the game without reducing immersion is to make more aggressive NPCs. NPCs that would try and pick a fight with you over the smallest infraction. An example would be breaking a custom observed in a faction. Unless the PC were to try and intentionally "play nice" you would have 3x the number of possible combat encounters. The reason why I'd suggested increasing combat in this way is that most people seem to be against trash mobs. They do not wish to be in situations where randomly generating monsters are constantly attacking them. Supposedly this would break immersion. I honestly don't know if it would or not. I was simply throwing out an idea.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 26th, 2016, 5:51 pm

Drool wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:I think that's what this game will be like. Lots of people will be like waiting around to get to kill something and get fed up and quit.
Well, that's bound to happen with a somewhat high concept game. And there's no polite way to say it, but... this game isn't going to be for everybody, and they're not trying to make it be for everybody.
I don't see why Inxile can't achieve both goals. Its obvious that the lore, artwork, and writing are already superb from what I've heard and seen. What exactly would it hurt if they actually took the time to make this game "good" all around? In order to truly create a game that captures table top better than any game to this point I think it needs to be as reactive as possible, even if some of those choices are shallow. What harm would come from adding a mundane, shallow, and bare boned set of main quests for the fellow who tried to just break the game by fighting his way to the end and skimming through all the dialogue.

That is if they can do it in a way that doesn't reduce immersion for true fans. To me I see no reason not to add additional options and interesting ways of completing the game if in the end only more people would be entertained.

By the way I'm only chatting. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do anything. I know nothing about making video games. I'm simply discussing the gameplay of this game and PST. What I imagine would be the "best way" to make it happen.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by Drool » February 27th, 2016, 12:03 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:Only that everyone should be kill-able in the first place and that those few NPCs who are absolutely needed and who shouldn't die should still be able to be killed. Just that it should be difficult as a warning of sorts.
Yes. That's exactly what I'm objecting to.

If the quest critical NPC is a warlord, then yes, he should be hard to kill. If it's a merchant who has never lifted a weapon in his life, he shouldn't instantly become hard to kill because he knows some esoteric piece of information.
anonymous6059 wrote:Not many people enjoy spending 30+ hours only to discover that they shouldn't of killed the princess in level 1.
Who said anything about that? In fact, I specifically stated that the game should tell you when you kill a mission critical NPC. The only way you'll lose 30 hours of gameplay is if you've managed to not save the game in the past 30 hours. And, maybe it's just me, but I've never killed a mission critical character in any game by accident. If I'm doing it intentionally, I don't need the game cheating to tell me I'm doing something "wrong". I'm well aware.
anonymous6059 wrote:This really all came about though because I was suggesting that a interesting why to have more combat in the game without reducing immersion is to make more aggressive NPCs.
The impetus for the idea is rather irrelevant to my objections to said idea. However, I will state that "finding a way to add combat" seems to go against the central guiding principles, the entire point, and the spirit of the game they're making. The lack of combat isn't because inXile hasn't figured out how to add combat; it's because they have consciously made the decision to not have it.

It like buying a convertible car and then complaining that it doesn't have a hardtop.
anonymous6059 wrote:I don't see why Inxile can't achieve both goals.
Because they're mutually exclusive.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by vv221 » February 28th, 2016, 5:43 am

While I have high hopes for the Crisis system, especially for fights, I understand Drool here: this is not the reason I will be playing Torment: Tides of Numenéra.

I usually play two games at a time (not at the same time mind you, I have only one barely working brain :mrgreen:), one heavily focused on story and one with a really good gameplay . Recently I’ve been playing a lot of Planescape: Torment, where I am hunting lore through dialogues and exploration, and Transistor to have a little break with less reading and a top-notch gameplay (and still a very good story because I love that in my games).

I will most probably play Torment: Tides of Numenéra in the same way, diving head on into the story, with another game in parallel for when I feel in the mood for more action in my gaming session, perhaps a new Diablo 2 hardcore character or some Faster Than Light runs. So that’s not that I "don’t care" for the combat in T:ToN, I especially hope it will be more fleshed out than the one of Planescape: Torment, just that I care less for it than for other aspects of the game that are bound to have more impact on the overall experience.

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Re: A look on writing, gameplay and some lore questions

Post by anonymous6059 » February 28th, 2016, 7:17 am

Drool wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:This really all came about though because I was suggesting that a interesting why to have more combat in the game without reducing immersion is to make more aggressive NPCs.
The impetus for the idea is rather irrelevant to my objections to said idea. However, I will state that "finding a way to add combat" seems to go against the central guiding principles, the entire point, and the spirit of the game they're making. The lack of combat isn't because inXile hasn't figured out how to add combat; it's because they have consciously made the decision to not have it.
If in fact that is what Inxile wants to do that's fine with me. I just don't think that's what they have planned. Planescape Torment was full of combat and so was pretty much every Infinity engine game with a decent story. Nothing is exclusive about it. If they want to make a spiritual successor to PST then what good is throwing out 1/3 of what the game was about. What I'm talking about can be found throughout Planescape Torment already. If you don't want to find the deva's tears and just want to kill Ravel's kids in the brothel and just take the blood. Don't want to find the mug of black ice just kill that guy for the Ecco's Keys. Those Mercyguards will be all over you for it but you can do it. You will have one hell of a time trying to do it. Everyone will try to kill you including the Modrons for some reason. That's what made game's like Planescape fun. It gave you the freedom to play it how you wanted to play it. You can break into any room, kill anyone, take what you want. It isn't in any way exclusive or outside what it means to be a spiritual successor. It just sounds like you don't want this to be a Role Playing Game or jut want to disagree/troll.

One of the biggest complaints I've seen from the beta is from all the "weapon sickness" . You can find all these weapons in the game, but don't have anyone or anything to use them on. That in itself suggest to me that they do indeed plan on having more uses for weapons.

If you look at some of the reviews written about the game's beta you'll see over and over the exact same concern that I'm talking about.

"It’s a really clever system. My only concern is that inXile is only talking in terms of there being a ‘dozen (or so)’ of these handcrafted encounters, intended to go from simple fights to time-pressure situations like a prison escape, with a promise of easier fights if you choose to pick them and the NPCs are up for it. You can’t just attack anyone you want though, and pretty much nobody I encountered seemed to have a hostile bone in their bodies. Even a group of lightning-spurting rock monsters down in the underground that I’d been charged with removing were oddly happy to just go “Oh, okay, we leave.” Hell, even the thugs standing around the dodgy bits of town were more into politely objecting to having their conversations disturbed than being sweaty XP sacks." https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/0 ... nera-beta/

"As I exhausted every dialogue tree (including that of Otero, who is himself one of “the boring bits”), I was given dribs of XP and several single-use items called Cyphers as rewards. These can only be consumed during a Crisis, one of the game’s hand-crafted combat encounters. But Crises are so rare, and so avoidable, that I missed every chance to use the Cyphers I collected. For the crime of being given these useless items (I believe I had four) by grateful NPCs, the game afflicted me with “Cypher Sickness,” a stat-reducing ailment." https://killscreen.com/articles/advice- ... -numenera/

All I'm suggesting is making NPCs bigger jerks looking to pick a fight and to be able to kill anyone. Pretty much exactly how it is in Planescape Torment.

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