A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

For all Torment discussion that does not fit elsewhere. No spoilers allowed.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by kilobug » October 2nd, 2017, 1:05 am

Arsene-Lupin wrote:
October 1st, 2017, 6:08 pm
In Planescape Torment, there was lots of combat. And it was tedious. And it was awful. And it did nothing to improve the narrative of the game. But it did give players something to do in-between running from NPC to NPC and talking. It created balance, and gave players a greater sense of agency.
That's highly subjective, but I don't agree with that - I'm glad they made TTON the way it is, without "trash mobs". I do sometimes enjoy a CRPG with more combat too, but I personally prefer the TTON way, and that's especially true for TTON itself.
Arsene-Lupin wrote:
October 1st, 2017, 6:08 pm
When I read the negative reviews for TToN, the lack of combat is the most common criticism. I do not think there was anything wrong with the *setting* for TToN; I do not think there was anything wrong with the characters or story of TToN; I do not believe there was anything wrong with the writing in TToN.
Well, when I read the negative reviews for TTON, most of them are actually people complaining about "broken promises" and similar, not about the game itself, but about the process. Which is very sad, because if people had the same knowledge about the development of PsT than they did about TTON, they would have been ever more upset... the post-Sigil part of PsT really feels the cuts, while TTON doesn't - if you didn't know that many things were planned and then cut, you wouldn't guess it.

For the rest well... it's probably something to do with wrong exceptations. TTON is a somewhat closer to a point&click adventure game (another genre that I also like) than to Diablo. And that's all fine in itself, but when people except a game full of combat they might be disappointed. But IMHO we need _more_ games that are mostly story-driven, but with a bit of combat and much more flexible than point&click adventure games in how you can handle situation, and with the RPG elements of character progression and chosing your skills. To me that's the best of both world - hard to market unfortunately, but a very good combination in itself.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Firkraag » October 2nd, 2017, 11:54 am

I feel, like the TToN is not very well paced. It doesn't seem put together in a way so, that combat/crises/action could split the narrative at appropriate, nor it has the best pace as an interactive fiction. I felt very exhausted at moments, so I had to figure out where I need to pause before I feel the burn out.

Surprisingly, fetch quests in Planescape: Torment make a lot more sense, now. At each point you could be sent in different direction. Or stay. While you go, you may fight somebody. Or not.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by troybpierce » October 13th, 2017, 1:54 pm

I've played the very beginning of the game for a bit, just to get the feel of it, but I haven't done a serious, full playthrough simply because I want to wait for any and all patches to be released.

I buy games I am excited about at release to support the developers, but I often wait YEARS before I actually play them simply because there tend to be so many bugs in modern games (due to the complexity of modern game development).

For example, I STILL haven't played Pillars of Eternity yet, which I bought back in 2015, because there have been so many patches released. They are currently at patch 3.6 (which may very well be the final patch, though no one knows for sure). That game had a TON of patches released.

Anyway, I am hoping there will be some more patches released for this game (to fix more bugs and possibly even add more content), but I am beginning to think that there won't be anymore patches since the game apparently didn't sell well (at least that's what I've gathered from reading these forums).

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this game didn't sell well simply because it is such an old school game with so little combat and TONS of text to read. Modern gamers are used to voiced dialogue, not hundreds of lines of text to read, so it probably turned away a lot of modern rpg gamers.

So to sum up, I really hope they do release more patches for this game, but I am beginning to think it won't happen...

And to answer the threadstarter's question, yes I DO hope they release other games in the world of Numenera, but maybe the next Numera game should have less text to read and more strategic combat to appeal to more rpg gamers???
Last edited by troybpierce on October 13th, 2017, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Gizmo » October 13th, 2017, 2:18 pm

troybpierce wrote:
October 13th, 2017, 1:54 pm
...Maybe the next Numera game could have less text to read and more strategic combat to have a more broader appeal to modern rpg games???
Modern RPGs are generally wretched things IMO, with shockingly few notable exceptions. The absolute last thing I'd want is another RPG from a team chasing the broader appeal of the modern consumer.

While 'combat heavy' is generally good quality for a game, not all games (nor all RPGs) necessarily have to be so. Planescape Torment, for instance was rather a 'level up over lunch' kind of game where the big moments were in idle conversation, and combat was generally discouraged (despite the trash-mobs)... there weren't even any swords in the game—except for Dak'kon's; and barely any armor—except Vhailor.

I would be disappointed in any PS:T follow-up that significantly shifted the balance of action:dialog from its position between digital novel, and Diablo.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by troybpierce » October 13th, 2017, 2:36 pm

Actually, I am ok with THIS Numenera game being very similar to the original Planescape: Torment (with very little combat and LOTS of text dialogue). After all, this game was the spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment.

But the problem is that this Numenera game sold very poorly (as did Planescape: Torment back when it was released, if you remember). Planescape: Torment also had very disappointing sales at release, and only became a cult classic later.

So both the Torment games were not very financially success at release (the cult classic status of this game remains to be seen sometime in the future...).

So I am thinking that if they DO release another game in the Numenera world, what should they do differently so that it is financially successful??? I think less text and more strategic combat in the next Numera game might prevent it from being another financial flop.

So to repeat, I am ok with how THIS game was developed (being the spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment at all), but I am thinking more along the lines of: "What can they do differently with the NEXT Numenera game so that it's actually financially successful???"

Without money, this series will die (if it isn't dead already...).

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by phimseto » October 13th, 2017, 2:57 pm

This is purely my personal opinion but if we or anyone else ever did another Torment game, I would prefer it to be in a new setting with new characters. It's the themes, character journeys, and unique settings that make a Torment game, and that process is pretty self-contained within the storylines and gameplay of the individual titles. I wouldn't mind seeing another Planescape or Numenera game, even with some of the same characters, but I'd want them to be their own thing rather than trying to be another Torment game.

Also, for all you tabletop fans, I hope you are aware of this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mo ... escription

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Gizmo » October 13th, 2017, 3:58 pm

troybpierce wrote:
October 13th, 2017, 2:36 pm
So both the Torment games were not very financially success at release (the cult classic status of this game remains to be seen sometime in the future...).

So I am thinking that if they DO release another game in the Numenera world, what should they do differently so that it is financially successful???
Nothing. Doing that is a trap. What good is it for a series to morph into something else in order to sell? If you succeed, you profit at the cost of becoming something else... Just look at Fallout, and FO3/4. If something can't find a market—it SHOULD* die out, rather than become a polluted shade of itself. Dungeoncrawlers died out for twenty years...now they are back. Iso/turnbased RPGs died out, now they are back.

If the market isn't there to appreciate a product... it shouldn't be offered. It's a sad thing IMO to give something a face-lift, and trendy clothes to try to force it to fit in with popular appeal. They did that with Tron 2, and all of the Michael Bay Transformer films, all of which pale to their predecessors IMO; (personally I put Fury Road with in that lot).

*But that doesn't preclude making a different series/ or different style of game, using the same setting. The Warhammer IP has the gamut of RTS, First & third person shooters, and lite RPG hybrids in it. They are not all one series, but several using the same setting; and with wildly varied gameplay among them.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by troybpierce » October 16th, 2017, 2:19 pm

I don't know, keeping the same isometric view and Numenera setting, but cutting down on the wordiness and adding more crisis situations wouldn't significantly alter the series, in my opinion. That's not a drastic change like the example you gave (the old school Fallout games compared to the modern Fallout games). It seems like a small change to me.

I guess the question is - would those two changes result in more sales for the next Numenera game?

I don't know for certain that it would, but I think so.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Gizmo » October 16th, 2017, 5:07 pm

It would certainly make it less verbose, and inherently have less of a story; or at least one told a lot more curtly... This is bad IMO. Doubly so for a Planscape:Torment inspired endeavor.

Have you played FO4? From what I've read about the game... PC dialog became sparsely worded tweets that (ostensibly) were there just to imply the minimum intent. Imagine if the NPCs all spoke as minimalistically as the Player Character.

It means becoming a Cliff-Notes version of an already stripped down story designed for a game.

Sure, people think differently, and want different things from a game. I play games for the gameplay (of course), but I also like a good story, and consider cutscenes as welcome milestones; the more the better. Planescape even had cutscenes in the middle of combat. When people find a game that offers what they like, and see a game that purports to be somewhat of a part 2, shouldn't they expect it to offer a continuance of the series experience (that they —presumably enjoyed in the previous title)? Isn't that why anyone would bother to check out a sequel to a game they've played. Does anyone really want or expect Deus-ex gameplay in the next Mortal Kombat title—or the reverse?

If they went by profits & fads... Why not make the next MK title a Farmville clone?
Image
(...complete with combat, but with so much more! :twisted: )

I would just be disappointed in any Planescape successor that played out like a Diablo sequel.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by marceror » October 16th, 2017, 7:41 pm

Gizmo wrote:
October 16th, 2017, 5:07 pm
It would certainly make it less verbose, and inherently have less of a story; or at least one told a lot more curtly... This is bad IMO. Doubly so for a Planscape:Torment inspired endeavor.

Have you played FO4? From what I've read about the game... PC dialog became sparsely worded tweets that (ostensibly) were there just to imply the minimum intent. Imagine if the NPCs all spoke as minimalistically as the Player Character.

It means becoming a Cliff-Notes version of an already stripped down story designed for a game.

Sure, people think differently, and want different things from a game. I play games for the gameplay (of course), but I also like a good story, and consider cutscenes as welcome milestones; the more the better. Planescape even had cutscenes in the middle of combat. When people find a game that offers what they like, and see a game that purports to be somewhat of a part 2, shouldn't they expect it to offer a continuance of the series experience (that they —presumably enjoyed in the previous title)? Isn't that why anyone would bother to check out a sequel to a game they've played. Does anyone really want or expect Deus-ex gameplay in the next Mortal Kombat title—or the reverse?

If they went by profits & fads... Why not make the next MK title a Farmville clone?
Image
(...complete with combat, but with so much more! :twisted: )

I would just be disappointed in any Planescape successor that played out like a Diablo sequel.
I would buy that!!!

Wait, no I wouldn't! I have too much self respect.

[spoiler]<pretend the spoiler function works and starts here>I'd actually buy it. Maybe twice. Shhh!</pretend the spoiler function works and ends here.[/spoiler]

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by troybpierce » October 17th, 2017, 7:38 am

Haha, your example is too ridiculous to even be remotely comparable to what I suggested.

More patches to this game and another Numenera game in the future is what I'm hoping for (as long as it doesn't turn into Farmville).

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by troybpierce » October 17th, 2017, 12:15 pm

phimseto wrote:
October 13th, 2017, 2:57 pm
This is purely my personal opinion but if we or anyone else ever did another Torment game, I would prefer it to be in a new setting with new characters. It's the themes, character journeys, and unique settings that make a Torment game, and that process is pretty self-contained within the storylines and gameplay of the individual titles. I wouldn't mind seeing another Planescape or Numenera game, even with some of the same characters, but I'd want them to be their own thing rather than trying to be another Torment game.
I get what you're saying - a game set in the Planescape setting or the Numenera setting doesn't have to be another Torment game.

You are defining a Torment game as a style of game where text-based storytelling is the main mechanic of the game and the story discusses certain themes. But a Torment game does not have to be tied to a specific setting (Planescape or Numenera).

So based on that definition, the next Torment game could take place in any setting.

And the next Numenera game (or Planescape game) doesn't have to be in the same mold as a Torment game.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Gizmo » October 17th, 2017, 12:56 pm

troybpierce wrote:
October 17th, 2017, 12:15 pm
(Of Phimseto's points)
  • a game set in the Planescape setting or the Numenera setting doesn't have to be another Torment game.
  • a Torment game as a style of game where text-based storytelling is the main mechanic of the game and the story discusses certain themes. But a Torment game does not have to be tied to a specific setting (Planescape or Numenera).
  • the next Torment game could take place in any setting.
    And the next Numenera game (or Planescape game) doesn't have to be in the same mold as a Torment game.
Well I certain.y agree with all of these. 8-)

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by jsaving » October 18th, 2017, 6:47 am

troybpierce wrote:
October 13th, 2017, 2:36 pm
So to repeat, I am ok with how THIS game was developed (being the spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment at all), but I am thinking more along the lines of: "What can they do differently with the NEXT Numenera game so that it's actually financially successful???"

Without money, this series will die (if it isn't dead already...).
This is a great point, actually. I was happy to participate in the call for "more Numenera from inXile" but it will never, ever happen unless they see a path to better profitability in a sequel. And the only way *that* will happen is if they correctly diagnose what hindered sales for TToN and then evaluate whether those headwinds are fixable.

One story that's being told is, people just don't want to read any more. In this scenario, the way to generate more sales is to reduce the word count and increase the amount of combat. I would disagree with the premise that the word count itself was the problem, as plenty of other successful RPGs over the last few years have required a lot of reading (such as Pillars of Eternity whose wall-of-text "lore dumps" are still discussed today). But if the word count were the problem, and people just don't want "literary" games any more, then that would probably be a signal that this sort of game isn't going to be commercially viable in today's market.

The other story that's being told is, mistakes were made that prevented TToN from generating the sales that it could have gotten. The combat system was too clunky, causing people to dread crises; the plot advanced too slowly, causing people to be confused about what was happening or what to do next; promised features weren't fully delivered, causing people to become embittered; and the game didn't really answer the question of why one life matters, in contrast to PST which revolved almost completely around the question of what can change the nature of a man. The good news about this scenario is that all of those issues are fixable, and none of them call into question the fundamental attributes that make Torment games great.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Gizmo » October 18th, 2017, 8:37 am

jsaving wrote:
October 18th, 2017, 6:47 am
But if the word count were the problem, and people just don't want "literary" games any more, then that would probably be a signal that this sort of game isn't going to be commercially viable in today's market.
I don't think anything that is not outright 'empowerment fantasy' will score top sales in today's market; though fluke exceptions do exist. :(

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by kilobug » October 19th, 2017, 3:37 am

It's true that a "Torment" game and a "Numenera" game are two different things. The next Torment game (if it is ever made) could very well be in a different settings (the Strange perhaps, or whatever else), like TTON was in a different settings than PsT. And a Numenera (or Planescape) game could very well be anything - from a Diablo-like action game, to a strategy or management to game, to a FPS.

But it's not completely disconnected either - a Torment game requires a weird and unsual settings, it wouldn't work well in a classical Tolkienesque high fantasy world, for example. And while you could make a FPS in Numenera or Planscape, it would be a waste of the settings, such a deep settings loaded with mystery and philosophical connotations is much better explored in a game that emphasis thinking and reading over action.

But I would to see a new Numenera game, even if commercial reasons it as to be more actionish than TTON was, as long as it's not too much (BG/PoE level of action vs text is fine, but not Diablo level of action vs text).

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by troybpierce » October 19th, 2017, 6:08 am

Yes, a Baldur's Gate/Pillars of Eternity combat vs text balance is what I would hope for in the next Numenera game.

I definitely would NOT want a Diablo combat vs text balance in the next Numenera game.

Good example.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by EisenKreutzer » October 21st, 2017, 11:25 am

I am a massive fan of Numenera, and would definitely love to see InXile try their hands at another game set in the Ninth World. The setting is so rich, vibrant and alive, and so customizeable, that it can contain an enormous variety of stories. InXile really did the setting justice with Torment: Tides of Numenera, and if they can deliver more of that, unshackled by the Torment name and what it represents (as awesome as Planescape: Torment and T:ToN are), then I would be very happy.
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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Adahn451 » October 24th, 2017, 11:00 am

kilobug wrote:
August 3rd, 2017, 2:13 am
That doesn't really matter, since the 1.1.0 is great and doesn't have many bugs.
We must have a very different definition of "bugs". Sure, there are no (?) fully game breaking bugs or CTDs, but I remember counting over 20 bugs just after finishing the first fight in the game. At that moment I decided to give it some time, until the bugs are fixed, and I even decided against reporting the bugs I found, as they were so obvious, that I assumed they are going to be reported hundreds of times and fixed soon. Alas, about half a year passed now, and no new releases have been... released.

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Re: A call for more Numenera from Inxile! :)

Post by Lix » November 8th, 2017, 5:40 pm

TheSeaker wrote:
August 5th, 2017, 3:53 pm
I have no doubt it will end up a classic just like PS:T and I hope the team eventually finds the desire to return to Numenera to create more content. BTW, Steam now has the last 30 reviews as "very positive"! PS:T didn't have this kind of reception out the gate :).
The last sale has given Torment a burst of new user reviews, and they're 65% positive.

You'd be hard pressed to find many RPGs that have had a worse user reception than Torment in its first 8 months after release. The best things you can hope for is that inXile will eventually break even, and that a few people will still remember the game fondly ten years from now.

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