Where are the prostitutes?

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Aotrs Commander » March 25th, 2017, 5:42 am

One might observe, were prostitutes implemented for versimilitude, they should ALSO implement veneral disease. (Only Crusader Kings 2 that I can think of actually does do that, and the proper, incurable kind too.) A small chance of a permenant debuff for having unprotected sex (and smaller with, since no protecion is pefect, even if you can find some) with a prostitute would be rather more accurate/immersive/whatever... Yet I suspect that suggestion would be met with some ire.


revelation_now wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 12:02 am
You see, since Planescape Torment was about the nature of man, it is imperative that it dealt with sex as its such a fundamental part of how we identify and relate to one and other. In many ways, love sex and reproduction are central themes to the question of "What does one life matter?".
I might politely point out that those sentiments are not universal. Sex, love and reproduction are not central themes to the lives of many people.


Gizmo wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 12:05 am
Quite an about face from its predecessor eh?
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Thankfully. PS:T is still in my opinion, the best CRPG, but it was not without its flaws. The journal renders were definitely one of them.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Zombra » March 25th, 2017, 7:47 am

Ranger1 wrote:
March 24th, 2017, 11:22 pm
Zombra wrote:
March 17th, 2017, 11:41 am
Also, where are the bottlers, chamberlains, cordwainers, and ewerers??

Thats a straw man argument and you know it.

No. It's a reductio ad absurdum, which is perfectly valid ... if the argument is about "realism" or even "verisimilitude" ... and that's still the only excuse I've seen for complaining. "There are slums so they forgot prostitutes because realism." Yet no one is complaining about a lack of road crews fixing potholes, even though there are paved surfaces in the game.

If you want to see boobs, fine and I agree with you ... but just say "I wanna see boobs" and stop pretending you're crusading for "realism".
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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Gizmo » March 25th, 2017, 1:20 pm

Aotrs Commander wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 5:42 am
Thankfully. PS:T is still in my opinion, the best CRPG, but it was not without its flaws. The journal renders were definitely one of them.
I read an interview with an ex-BlackIsle dev recently (I think it was with Leonard Boyarsky), who said that in the mid-nineties, it was nearly impossible [more likely infeasible] for them to model a believable person in 3D.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by waltc » March 25th, 2017, 2:17 pm

I must say that out of all the things I've thought about with this game, the absence of hookers and whores and is not one of them...;) In fact, until I saw this thread I had never even thought about it. The Internet is full of images of hookers and whores, if a person is interested, so having such imagery infest my computer games is surely not a request I'd ever make...;) Let us hope that in a billion years society has progressed a bit further than having become a sea of pimps, thugs, hookers and whores...!...;) I should like to think so, anyway. Cartoon sex is not my thing, I confess, and in computer games it usually strikes me as gratuitous...;)

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Gizmo » March 25th, 2017, 5:16 pm

waltc wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 2:17 pm
The Internet is full of images of hookers and whores, if a person is interested...
That's really not the point; and really not polite to [PA] imply that it is.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Aotrs Commander » March 25th, 2017, 5:58 pm

Gizmo wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 1:20 pm
Aotrs Commander wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 5:42 am
Thankfully. PS:T is still in my opinion, the best CRPG, but it was not without its flaws. The journal renders were definitely one of them.
I read an interview with an ex-BlackIsle dev recently (I think it was with Leonard Boyarsky), who said that in the mid-nineties, it was nearly impossible [more likely infeasible] for them to model a believable person in 3D.
That mandated the female skimpy cosumes in the journal how...?

Fall-from-Grace was wearing something that did not look... Like that (which, let us remember, was supposed to be a regular hive inhabitant). Seriously, the fracking female zombie was wearing more than that,

I think those choices were rather less likely technical and more due to the attitudes of twenty years ago.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Gizmo » March 25th, 2017, 6:21 pm

Aotrs Commander wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 5:58 pm
I think those choices were rather less likely technical and more due to the attitudes of twenty years ago.
And what would those be?

Comic art always gets flack for this as well, but one of the reasons for exaggerated proportions was simply to make it obvious that the figure is male or female.

*Of course another way to evaluate it, is that a person with [those] exaggerated proportions would without doubt find it advantageous to them in the sex trade, and (depending upon personality) might gravitate towards that line of work.

**Of course another way to evaluate it, is that the artist was asked to render a prostitute, and the rendered appearance may well be what they believe one might look like in Sigil.

***Of course another way to evaluate it, is that it IS a deliberate parody average of what a generic prostitute might look like in Sigil. Also consider the context; a world where emotional opinions can shift land masses, and one would suppose ~that fantasies could be made incarnate ~for profit. Recall that the PC just mentioning an invented character [lying about them] enough times, causes him to suddenly exist as a living being.

***Of course another way to evaluate it, is simply artistic license. It's their game, they created it; no one else has any say in it.

BTW [and totally as an aside]: I would say that the same should hold true of Kickstarter projects; so long as their say was plainly stated in the prospectus... and of course delivered as promised. I'm not a fan [and consider it silly] when backers demand input. Their choice was to back the project or not, the money doesn't come with strings attached. It'd be utter insanity if it did.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Hal900x » March 25th, 2017, 10:02 pm

That moment when you realize your suggestions for improving the combat system have zero replies, and a thread about hookers has dozens.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Ranger1 » March 26th, 2017, 2:27 am

Zombra wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 7:47 am
Ranger1 wrote:
March 24th, 2017, 11:22 pm
Zombra wrote:
March 17th, 2017, 11:41 am
Also, where are the bottlers, chamberlains, cordwainers, and ewerers??

Thats a straw man argument and you know it.

No. It's a reductio ad absurdum, which is perfectly valid ... if the argument is about "realism" or even "verisimilitude" ... and that's still the only excuse I've seen for complaining. "There are slums so they forgot prostitutes because realism." Yet no one is complaining about a lack of road crews fixing potholes, even though there are paved surfaces in the game.

If you want to see boobs, fine and I agree with you ... but just say "I wanna see boobs" and stop pretending you're crusading for "realism".
Now that you mention it I would not be opposed to other signs of life that add to the verisimilitude of the setting (I generally want as much as possible) but I found this absence particularly jarring. Its the worlds oldest profession for a reason and a genre staple of fantasy. Its just so pg-13 and you would think that a game that is striving to push boundaries in role-playing would not be afraid of what others think but it seems InXile is a timid developer in these matters. Wanting rpgs to strive for some fantasy realism is not an excuse, its wanting InXile to do better in future. You should not be so quick to judge peoples intentions in asking for attention to details.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Zombra » March 26th, 2017, 2:45 am

Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 2:27 am
Its the worlds oldest profession for a reason and a genre staple of fantasy.

A genre staple? :lol: No, it's not.

Even if it was, which it isn't, "fantasy" and "science fantasy" are not the same genre. Numenera is not fantasy.

Ranger1 wrote:You should not be so quick to judge peoples intentions in asking for attention to details.

Your intention is to ask for attention to the details you like while ignoring millions of others. That doesn't make you detail oriented, it just means you want your hobby horse.

Stop pretending you care about "details". You care about this detail. The devs obviously didn't. That doesn't make them wrong and you right.
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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by kaiman » March 26th, 2017, 4:24 am

Hal900x wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 10:02 pm
That moment when you realize your suggestions for improving the combat system have zero replies, and a thread about hookers has dozens.
Looks like you made the wrong suggestion, then. How about a cypher or esoterie that strips all combatants of their protective armour (and underwear)? That would solve two problems in one go! ;-)

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Godfather101 » March 26th, 2017, 4:29 am

kaiman wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 4:24 am
Looks like you made the wrong suggestion, then. How about a cypher or esoterie that strips all combatants of their protective armour (and underwear)? That would solve two problems in one go! ;-)
Only if you need to pay a price to attack then. ^^
every attack.
And the attacks can't be stored or something.
Time based and such things. :mrgreen:
the longer it takes the more it costs. ^^

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Aotrs Commander » March 26th, 2017, 5:49 am

Gizmo wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 6:21 pm
Aotrs Commander wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 5:58 pm
I think those choices were rather less likely technical and more due to the attitudes of twenty years ago.
And what would those be?

Comic art always gets flack for this as well, but one of the reasons for exaggerated proportions was simply to make it obvious that the figure is male or female.
I was commenting on the clothing, not the proportions.

(But yes, it is not a good thing in comics, either, but bad art in comics can cut both ways, lookin' at you, Rob Liefield, but that is incidental to what I was getting at.)
Gizmo wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 6:21 pm
**Of course another way to evaluate it, is that the artist was asked to render a prostitute, and the rendered appearance may well be what they believe one might look like in Sigil.
But that's NOT the harlot image. This is the harlot image:

Image

The afore-shown image is the female Hive TOWNSPERSON. (I went a fired up PS:T to double check. There are two female townspersons and two male. The Second female one is slightly better off, but both are wearing waaay less than the males - and the same applies to the upper-class townies.) I would have given it no second thought had the males - like Nameless One himself, in fairness - all been mostly shirtless or whatever, but most of the pictures of them are them all fully clothed.

I mean, I was not outraged or anything (again PS:T, tied as my top three best games or all time), but I was raising an eyebrow and doing "riiiiigt. Okay, then."

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Ranger1 » March 26th, 2017, 12:13 pm

Zombra wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 2:45 am
Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 2:27 am
Its the worlds oldest profession for a reason and a genre staple of fantasy.

A genre staple? :lol: No, it's not.

Even if it was, which it isn't, "fantasy" and "science fantasy" are not the same genre. Numenera is not fantasy.

Ranger1 wrote:You should not be so quick to judge peoples intentions in asking for attention to details.

Your intention is to ask for attention to the details you like while ignoring millions of others. That doesn't make you detail oriented, it just means you want your hobby horse.

Stop pretending you care about "details". You care about this detail. The devs obviously didn't. That doesn't make them wrong and you right.
Seriously! You didn't see ladies of the night in rpgs from Baldurs Gate to Wasteland because I can show you examples if you like. Also arguing its science fantasy not fantasy is a weak argument as we both know Sagus Cliffs humans live in a quasi medieval world. Obviously its not possible to cover all details which is why your argument is a facetious one. The sort of detail being asked for by the OP focuses on one of the main themes of human existence, people don't live in an emotionless void and prostitutes should be present to hint at that aspect at least. Its not the be all and end all by any means but it would add a lot of colour to Numeneras setting. But by all means treat the topic flippantly like it is of no importance what so ever.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Zombra » March 26th, 2017, 12:38 pm

Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 12:13 pm
Seriously! You didn't see ladies of the night in rpgs from Baldurs Gate to Wasteland because I can show you examples if you like.
By that logic, if I can cite a few examples of fantasy fiction without prostitutes, you'll have to concede that they aren't a staple of the genre. Agreed?

If you prefer, I can name several RPGs that have boats in them. Should we then post angry threads about any RPG that doesn't have boats? After all, boats are a staple!

(And since when is Wasteland a "fantasy" game?)
Ranger1 wrote:The sort of detail being asked for by the OP focuses on one of the main themes of human existence, people don't live in an emotionless void and prostitutes should be present to hint at that aspect at least.
By that logic, every game about humans should have prostitutes in it. Is that what you're trying to say?
Ranger1 wrote:Its not the be all and end all by any means but it would add a lot of colour to Numeneras setting.
Sure, it might. Adding flying elephants might also make the setting more colorful.

No one is denying that adding interesting elements makes fiction interesting. What I'm denying is that prostitution is a necessary or expected part of every fantasy setting, such that its absence warrants a backlash.
Ranger1 wrote:But by all means treat the topic flippantly like it is of no importance what so ever.
I think it's an interesting topic ... not whether or not prostitution was included in the game, but that some people are actually upset by its omission.
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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Ranger1 » March 26th, 2017, 1:17 pm

By that logic, if I can cite a few examples of fantasy fiction without prostitutes, you'll have to concede that they aren't a staple of the genre. Agreed?

If you prefer, I can name several RPGs that have boats in them. Should we then post angry threads about any RPG that doesn't have boats? After all, boats are a staple!
Who is talking about fantasy fiction? We are talking about crpgs here. If the rpg in question was nautical in flavour then sure I would expect boats. Boats are an optional thing not an aspect of the setting btw. There are countless rpgs of yore with a seedy aspect so your statement is very questionable. Numenera has aspirations for being a serious rpg which is not the same thing as not exploring the topic altogether.
Ranger1 wrote:Its not the be all and end all by any means but it would add a lot of colour to Numeneras setting.
Sure, it might. Adding flying elephants might also make the setting more colorful.

No one is denying that adding interesting elements makes fiction interesting. What I'm denying is that prostitution is a necessary or expected part of every fantasy setting, such that its absence warrants a backlash.
What backlash? I'm talking about an omission which makes the game less interesting and I find it interesting you refuse to engage meaningfully in a debate about its absence. I find prostitution being depicted in an rpg of value because it hints at the seediness of everyday life. Its very presence shows the emotional life of its inhabitants. It casts other characters misery and despondency in a different light and it cuts across all sectors of society rich and poor alike. In a game about deeper meanings you should be questioning its absence but you are like the three monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. But by all means compare to pink Elephants if it makes you happy.
Ranger1 wrote:But by all means treat the topic flippantly like it is of no importance what so ever.
I think it's an interesting topic ... not whether or not prostitution was included in the game, but that some people are actually upset by its omission.
More baffled? Bemused somewhat that a game intended for an older audience shoots for a pg-13 rating.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Gizmo » March 26th, 2017, 1:41 pm

Aotrs Commander wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 5:49 am
Gizmo wrote:
March 25th, 2017, 6:21 pm
**Of course another way to evaluate it, is that the artist was asked to render a prostitute, and the rendered appearance may well be what they believe one might look like in Sigil.
But that's NOT the harlot image.
The post with the image didn't say that it was; it was a response about female NPCs.

Incidentally [though I can't post a screenshot ~here], most of the corpses on slabs in the Mortuary (including females) are shirtless; as should be expected, I suppose. It's a morgue.

I think this was just the style of the game and its setting. Creepy, mysterious, and as far distant from the [safe] Forgotten Realms & Tolkien as possible. Fallout was intended the same; Fallout 2 was even advertised as such.

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Zombra » March 26th, 2017, 2:04 pm

Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 1:17 pm
Who is talking about fantasy fiction?
You are:
Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 2:27 am
Its the worlds oldest profession for a reason and a genre staple of fantasy.
You said that prostitution is a staple element of fantasy. Your words, not mine. If you're letting that argument crumble and die, great and thank you.
Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 1:17 pm
We are talking about crpgs here.
OK, we can move on and debunk that sex is a staple of CRPGs if you want. In fact that will be much easier. How many would you like me to name?
Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 1:17 pm
I'm talking about an omission which makes the game less interesting and I find it interesting you refuse to engage meaningfully in a debate about its absence. I find prostitution being depicted in an rpg of value because ...
No one is saying that there is no value or interest in such a theme. There are many interesting themes they could have included. All I'm saying is that it's goofy for people to act like inXile made some kind of mistake by making a story about what they wanted it to be about. "Why isn't there a 'coming of age' subplot? I want this to be more like Sixteen Candles!" That's all this is.
Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 1:17 pm
If the rpg in question was nautical in flavour then sure I would expect boats. Boats are an optional thing not an aspect of the setting btw. There are countless rpgs of yore with a seedy aspect so your statement is very questionable. Numenera has aspirations for being a serious rpg which is not the same thing as not exploring the topic altogether.
This boils down to, "Since Numenera is supposed to be the kind of setting I want it to be, it should have things in it that I want it to have." There's nothing wrong with wanting it to be a certain way, but the fact that your expectations had nothing to do with what they were making is your fault, not inXile's. This was never billed as the Whorehouse RPG.

Unless your argument is that all "serious" stories must feature sexual themes? We can debunk that one really fast.
Ranger1 wrote:
March 26th, 2017, 1:17 pm
By all means compare to pink Elephants if it makes you happy.
Thank you, I thought it was a fun way to illustrate how weak and flimsy the implied logic was.
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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Ranger1 » March 26th, 2017, 2:58 pm

@Zombra
Taking my comments out of context is just dishonest. My comment about fantasy wasn't specific enough but it is what I meant and the context of the discussion should of been enough to clue you in.
"Why isn't there a 'coming of age' subplot? I want this to be more like Sixteen Candles!" That's all this is.
You can interpret my comments however you like but it isn't what I meant. It seems you do not wish to respect different viewpoints and thats all you really needed to say. You are being disrespectful.
This boils down to, "Since Numenera is supposed to be the kind of setting I want it to be, it should have things in it that I want it to have." There's nothing wrong with wanting it to be a certain way, but the fact that your expectations had nothing to do with what they were making is your fault, not inXile's. This was never billed as the Whorehouse RPG.

Unless your argument is that all "serious" stories must feature sexual themes? We can debunk that one really fast.
I'm arguing they missed a trick and should consider such things in future. Is it that hard to comprehend? Disappointment is not the same thing as being demanding (the game is released and I am mostly happy with it). You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but you can make suggestions for the developer going forward. This is why we are all here no?

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Re: Where are the prostitutes?

Post by Zombra » March 26th, 2017, 3:19 pm

@Ranger1

You're right, I was being needlessly confrontational. I apologize. Going back and reading your earlier posts, I found that your initial stance was supporting the OP's general sentiment but not his weak logic. We agree that there are many things inXile could have done differently with the story ... there's nothing wrong with being disappointed with the absence of a theme you find interesting. I still don't think it's reasonable to expect those themes, but you seem to see the difference between failing to meet genre standards and simply not making a story about a particular theme. If we can agree that sex is a nonessential theme, even in fantasy, even in CRPGs, even in serious stories, then we can agree that it is not broken or wrong for a serious fantasy CRPG not to include that theme ... but it might have been cool for them to explore it.
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