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Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 1:59 am
by Jernaugh
Gizmo wrote:
Jernaugh wrote:Agree completely. Skimming is a vital skill for fast reading and one that will help you not get bogged down by too much descriptive text. It's also a big reason I'm more tolerant of more flowery prose than many other people (like many of those who have criticized the game's writing).
I tend to consider it an insult to the developer [authors] to skim their work; do unto others and all that. ;)

*That's not to say that I think [in the case of books] that one ~has to~ read every single book in BG1&2, and Elderscrolls. It's nice when obscure stories in-game impart clues, but I prefer the PC shouldn't auto-assimilate everything in the book for just clicking on it.
Hm. Maybe we have a different understanding of what skimming is. I don't skip content and I retain the core content. I have an appreciation for good prose and I notice well-written passages. It's just that... Hmm... Subjectively, when I read, it feels like I'm mostly scanning sentences for their meaning. The meaning is what stays with me. I've heard many people say that they almost have a voice in their head reading the text to them, but I don't have that. I don't have pictures in my mind, either. I have impressions and feelings, nothing more.

Now if there's something in the text that signals good prose, like a signal word or beautiful phrase, that focuses my attention on the language, then I notice it. And when there's a lot, then it influences my impressions. But mostly I can ignore mediocre writing and enjoy good writing while still retaining the content fast. This is what I mean when I say skimming.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 2:02 am
by IHaveHugeNick
Serjo wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:They've gone out of their way to make the game appear to be a tactical CRPG.


Yeah, no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbg2UkpRsno

Three minutes about the intricacies of the combat system, focusing on the complex decisions that have to be made to beat the tough challenges ahead.
Your point being? Just because they've made a trailer showcasing the combat, doesn't mean it's being advertised as a tactical cRPG. Not to mention anonymous is a backer, so he bought the game before any combat was showcased, so claiming now that he expected it to be a combat game is a 100% chemically concentrated horseshit. But then he's a 100% troll, so that only makes sense.

Thank you, come again.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 2:10 am
by Serjo
IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Serjo wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote:

Yeah, no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbg2UkpRsno

Three minutes about the intricacies of the combat system, focusing on the complex decisions that have to be made to beat the tough challenges ahead.
Your point being? Just because they've made a trailer showcasing the combat, doesn't mean it's being advertised as a tactical cRPG.
"As we explained in Update 24, we were leaning toward turn-based combat because we believe it’s better suited for the kind of tactical complexity we're looking for through our Crisis system.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/in ... sts/686723
Provide tactical, turn-based gameplay. Whether you choose to fight your way out of a situation or not, you will have interesting tactical choices to make. You'll have a variety of abilities and cyphers (one-use items) to use, either to fight your opponents, distract them, or evade them. The environment itself will offer choices as well: will you dismantle the crime lord's security systems (or co-opt them to turn against her)? Set your own traps then guide your enemies into them? Do you have time to disable the alarms, or will it be easier to make a break past the guards, leaving one of your troop behind to keep them distracted? Every Crisis will make use of your character's abilities (whether combat-focused or not) and provide new options unique to that scenario for you to consider.
https://torment.inxile-entertainment.co ... t/gameplay
Torment: Tides of Numenara - 6 Minutes of Tactical Combat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JymPWyFk1pA

I suppose you don't think it's a cRPG then?

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 3:23 am
by anonymous6059
Drool wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:No. It was never really said and in fact they've gone out of their way to make the game appear to be a tactical CRPG. They even made a combat focused trailer! Also, keep in mind what was actually promised from the beginning:
But wait," you say. "What if I want to fight? A dozen Crises doesn't sound like a good deal to me." Rest assured that if fighting is your preferred way to handle situations, then you will still have ample opportunity to do so. Our dozen (or so) Crises are handcrafted, it's true, and we won't ever require you to fight outside of a Crisis (or even inside most of them). But there will be a number of places where you can pick a fight, if you want to.
Um. Did you read your own quote? They say, right there, that there's about a dozen planned combats (if that as not all Crises are combat). They say you have other options, but they are very clearly stating that there isn't going to be a lot of combat.
What? It does say that a dozen of the combat situations are crisis. It then goes on to assure you that the game will have "amble" opportunities to fight. That not "all" combat will be crisis situations. I don't see how you can see "ample opportunity to fight" and spin that to mean the dozen that they have in the game. The entire point of the paragraph is to assure people that isn't it. That there will be more. Whatever. See it how you want. At least read the context from which the paragraph was taken. :roll:

No matter what, no one was sold on a visual novel. Most people wanted a CRPG that was in the same vein as PST. There is a big difference between "better" combat and almost no combat.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 5:22 am
by kaiman
anonymous6059 wrote:What? It does say that a dozen of the combat situations are crisis. It then goes on to assure you that the game will have "amble" opportunities to fight. That not "all" combat will be crisis situations.
I always read it in a way that combat would generally be playing out in turn-based, i.e. "crisis" mode. Only that there would be bigger, story-relevant crises with additional interactions and smaller, side-content crises without. Of the former, there would be about a dozen, and I would assume there are. If there are ample of the latter is certainly debatable.

Having just made my way into the tomb of the Endless Gate, I think I have avoided 3 fights in the Valley alone, and another 4 or 5 in Sagus Cliffs. I've also fought at least 4 times "already". I've played about 19 hours so far, which amounts to very little combat compared to your average cRPG. However, even with PS:T I spent 3 hours in the mortuary on my latest playthrough, without picking a single fight. And there are cRPGs like Drakensang: River of Time that sport fairly long stretches without any combat whatsoever as well.
anonymous6059 wrote:No matter what, no one was sold on a visual novel. Most people wanted a CRPG that was in the same vein as PST. There is a big difference between "better" combat and almost no combat.
I don't think "cRPG" equals "combat simulator" (though most are built that way). For me it's the role-playing aspect that is the important bit of a (c)RPG, and TToN gives me ample opportunity for that, at least :-).

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 6:30 am
by anonymous6059
kaiman wrote: However, even with PS:T I spent 3 hours in the mortuary on my latest playthrough, without picking a single fight.
Yes you did, you decided not to pick a fight. You could of spent that time killing every dustman in the mortuary though. In PST you awake in the mortuary scared, confused, and all you know is that you need to get out and find Pharod. The methods you use are up to you. That is what makes the game so great. In TToN you have large spans where combat isn't an option at all. PST is a CRPG that plays out just like Baldur's gate or Icewind Dale. The only difference is that the writing is really good and that you have multiple ways to resolve conflict. TToN is not like that. It is an adventure game where the main objective is to read and learn about the world around you.

Anyway, it isn't that I even mind the lack of combat all that much. Sure, I wish you could at least choose to fight thugs, miscreants, levies, and you know the regular lot. That doesn't mean I was expecting tons of combat. What bugs me is that Inxile sold this game as a tactical CRPG. Most people who watch the trailers or look at the original kickstarter promises are going to believe that this game has a lot of combat and that the combat will be very interesting and full of consequences.

Instead, you roam around reading short stories that don't feel very connected for extended periods of time. This leads people to skim through the game's dialogue looking forward to the next "impressive" fight. When the game suddenly ends they are going, "What? That was the whole game?".

The game needs these things:
1. A more passionate connection to the world. Take the Ghostly Women quest [Ashen Quest] and add more depth to it. Make the connection to that girl stronger. Possibly make the girl your own daughter. You're haunted by nightmares every time you rest and can't stop thinking about this girl. Everything reminds you of her. You know the typical crap.
2. It needs more combat and a few very simple cut-scenes [literally the same panning views that you got when entering new areas in PST, nothing theatric here] interspersed among the walls of text. This will help alleviate boredom. Once you get 1/2 of the way through the game they could spend 1/4 of the game deep in story, but you have to hook people early especially if you don't warn them that its just a visual novel.
3. The Toy and one more interesting companion that isn't human. Did the developers even play PST? I mean, I know they worked on the game, but its like they had no clue what made the game enjoyable. Sigh.

Of course its too late now. I doubt that we will ever see any of the cut content. Anyway, I kind of went off on a tangent. I'm done.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 6:53 am
by Gizmo
anonymous6059 wrote:Did the developers even play PST? I mean, I know they worked on the game, but its like they had no clue what made the game enjoyable. Sigh.
I've yet to play TToN, since my first PC died [impacted with the ground] before the game started; and I haven't had time to invest in it since ~yet. But this is disturbing, and I wonder ~since some of them worked on the original, if they have intentionally changed the design ethos away from the original... to better suit the present day mass-consumer. (That would be sad indeed :()

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 8:08 am
by TwinkieGorilla
It is, unfortunately, underwhelming. It's hard not to find yourself feeling that this game is comprised of a huge handful of missed or squandered opportunities. There should be less flavor text and more meaningful quests. Combat is underused and underwhelming. I've found almost zero challenges thus far and if it weren't for my love of nostalgia and the artwork/art direction I'm not sure I'd feel as excited in continuing. For a game that touts itself as "REPLAYABLE!" it doesn't really feel that way since it all feels a little too thin, content-wise. They really put all their eggs in the stupidest basket: MORE TEXT THAN PS:T does not = AS INTRIGUING AND INTERESTING AS PS:T.

Fargo has his head too far up his ass, methinks. Focusing on the wrong things.

Anyway, HI GIZMO!

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 9:23 am
by Firkraag
Gizmo wrote:to better suit the present day mass-consumer. (That would be sad indeed :()
Present day mass-consumer? Reading? We're talking the same present day mass-consumer?

For me the game felt much, more like extremely ambitious experiment and then desparate attempt to save what they. Consider all the things cut, both specific ones and implied, all the reports from people, that can be summed as "Many words. Little to no gameplay" and you can get a picture of a game, that LACKS CONTENT. As in "there should be much more pacing mechanics between dialogues". Don't get me wrong, it has good writing and particularly good gameplay moments, but it has flaws too and gameplay content deficit is one of the huge ones.

It's exhausting and it will be as exhausting for modern mass-consumer, as for old school gamers. The exception for people, who either enjoy this kind of thing or can overlook it due to their own gameplay style.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 9:30 am
by undecaf
TwinkieGorilla wrote:It is, unfortunately, underwhelming. It's hard not to find yourself feeling that this game is comprised of a huge handful of missed or squandered opportunities.
That's pretty much how it feels, yes.

I find it strange and a bit disheartening that even with generally more interesting "everything", this is barely carrying as well with me as the blandness of Pillars of Eternity.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 10:14 am
by anonymous6059
Well, It is officially considered crap now. http://store.steampowered.com/app/272270/
:(

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 10:28 am
by Abdullah
That's a failure

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 10:52 am
by kaiman
anonymous6059 wrote:Well, It is officially considered crap now. http://store.steampowered.com/app/272270/
:(
Now I'm disappointed.

Seeing my own growing list of things that could have been done differently (and I am usually very lenient when it comes to those things), I think inXile has wasted quite a bit of potential. And the controversy around cut content surely didn't help either.

My sole consolation right now is that (a) I do still enjoy the game tremendously for what it is and (b) I am not so sure that PS:T would have fared much better, had Steam or Metacritic been around when it was released initially.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 11:16 am
by TwinkieGorilla
Official petition for "What can change the nature of HOLD ON I waited four years for THIS?" as the official Tides slogan.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 11:22 am
by kaiman
anonymous6059 wrote:
kaiman wrote: However, even with PS:T I spent 3 hours in the mortuary on my latest playthrough, without picking a single fight.
Yes you did, you decided not to pick a fight. You could of spent that time killing every dustman in the mortuary though.
Well yeah, but so was my choice in TToN. I could easily have had 3 times the combat, too. Okay, still not the amount to be found in any other RPG out there, but almost all of it meaningful and as part of a quest resolution.

My take is that the reason we see so much combat in cRPGs, and are therefore expecting the same from any cRPG is because computers and developers usually suck at facilitating proper role-playing. Offering choices to players, allowing creative solutions to a given situation, adapting to a certain play-style or even just a certain combination of companions and/or skills and equipment on player side is virtually impossible to program with today's tools and computing resources. And it was even less possible when the first cRPGs emerged in the '80s. But numbers and stats and as an extension combat are what computers excel at. So it's natural that cRPGs traditionally focused on that aspect (only), and that people grew to expect exactly this when seeing a game labelled RPG.

I respect TToN for trying to be different, even if the attempt is ultimately doomed, because of the way computers and people tick. For me it's a step in the right direction, a game that offers more meaningful choice than "kill or be killed".

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 11:43 am
by Ningauble
I'm surprised by the limited, hell, almost non-existent voice acting. I'm looking forward to the fan patch.

I'm also surprised that there isn't "character" art during conversations. Some of the descriptions are good, but with so much fantastic art in the Numenera books and the posters I'm surprised we don't get more "shock & awe" from the strangeness of the people in the ninth world. For example any of the fish-people? Oh! THE BUG MERCHANT DESERVES SOME ARTWORK.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 12:46 pm
by Gizmo
Firkraag wrote:
Gizmo wrote:to better suit the present day mass-consumer. (That would be sad indeed :()
Present day mass-consumer? Reading? We're talking the same present day mass-consumer?
I meant that conceptually it might not be dissimilar to Bethesda's FO3... Where they structured it for their TES audience, but dressed it in the trappings and hallmarks of the Fallout IP. Here the hallmark of PST ~is perhaps word-count? I should actually play the game before commenting further about it. :mrgreen:

**But it occurs to me: Larian [I've read] changed the tone of their Divinity:Original Sin RPG, with their Enhanced Edition update.
If it's really needed, is this something InXile could pull off as well, with TToN?

***Gameplay & writing aside, I am very specifically reminded of the stark differences between the initial Witcher 2 intro compared to the later intro from the Enhanced edition! And would like to see similar done for Torment. 8-)

Originally released Witcher 2 intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF62dFrsGGk

Later replaced by the Enhanced edition intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ_KtvVvolY

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 12:53 pm
by Firkraag
We'll see.

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 1:28 pm
by Serjo
anonymous6059 wrote:Well, It is officially considered crap now. http://store.steampowered.com/app/272270/
:(
I believe that Torment is now officially the lowest rated crowdfunded RPG on Steam. Or have I overlooked another obscure failure from the last few years?

Re: I am disappointed

Posted: March 8th, 2017, 1:28 pm
by TwinkieGorilla
Gizmo wrote:*stuff*
:evil:

Hey. I said 'Hi!' goddammit!