Sales numbers and chart watching thread

For all Torment discussion that does not fit elsewhere. No spoilers allowed.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Matches_Malone » March 14th, 2017, 5:22 pm

I don't have any problem reading games in english. I've doing so all my life. But there is so many people who simply can't read english and is forced to read in whatever his/her language is... I simply can't imagine anyone playing the spanish version of Numenera and feeling it is a good game.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by kilobug » March 14th, 2017, 6:15 pm

Woolfe wrote:Indeed, ultimately the game has already been "paid for" by backers, so any additional sales are technically profit.
Not entirely. InXile said several times, and I've no reason to distrust them, that in addition to backer's money, they invested a significant amount (but no idea if that's $1 million, $5 millions or even more) of their own money (mostly from the sales of WL2) into TToN. So if they don't sell much, they will lose money on the game.

But I don't think the game is doing that bad - it's not doing very well on Steam (but still did sell on the first days), but it did quite good on GOG, and I hope therre will a "rebound" when they'll release the Oom "DLC".
Dork Mage wrote:Translation was a mistake from the start. It is difficult to see how a million+ word game could be translated given that context is quite often not comprehensible for an average conversational translator. If each encounter is written like a film script - maybe. But as a novel, good luck. But then, InXile should have known this from WL2 which in comparison was a "simple" translation.
No, they shouldn't have known this from WL2, when they made the Kickstarter for TTON and announced the translations, WL2 was still under development (and translation comes near the end of it). Nor did they know at that time how big the game would be in term of script size. But sure they should have known from their background in game development, especially since some did work on PST, but then I don't know how much a "designer" or "programmer" knows about the cost/pain Interplay had to translate PST.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Woolfe » March 14th, 2017, 8:12 pm

kilobug wrote:
Woolfe wrote:Indeed, ultimately the game has already been "paid for" by backers, so any additional sales are technically profit.
Not entirely. InXile said several times, and I've no reason to distrust them, that in addition to backer's money, they invested a significant amount (but no idea if that's $1 million, $5 millions or even more) of their own money (mostly from the sales of WL2) into TToN. So if they don't sell much, they will lose money on the game.

But I don't think the game is doing that bad - it's not doing very well on Steam (but still did sell on the first days), but it did quite good on GOG, and I hope therre will a "rebound" when they'll release the Oom "DLC".
Yeah I normally qualify that statement with a "mostly", but I forgot this time. I would be surprised if they pumped in more than what was earned during the kickstarter though.

More importantly, either way the game is paid for by Inxile/Backers, so the only pressure on them is the loss, and providing that was cash and not credit, any loss would be upsetting but overall manageable.

And I agree, I don't think it is as bad as people are making out, I don't think it is as good as they hoped, but then it is a very very different game, and the lack of RTwP was always going to upset some people, and the small number of combat situations in general was going to upset a lot more. The litmus test for TToN will be 6 months to a year down the track, once all the "this game was never going to please" people drop off the radar.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Serjo » March 15th, 2017, 3:41 am

kilobug wrote:but it did quite good on GOG
I've sorted the GOG all time best seller list to show the games that have been released since late 2015 which cost 25 bucks or more:

https://www.gog.com/games?release=a2015 ... ing&page=1

In sales to date, Torment is not only below the "big titles", but also below The Age of Decadence, Blackguards 2, Tyranny, and The Dwarves. The Dwarves has 26,000 owners on Steamspy, and I doubt it was a great hit on GOG.

The only recent RPGs that Torment has outsold so far are Siege of Dragonspear and Earthlock: Festival of Magic.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Lix » March 31st, 2017, 5:35 pm

Torment is currently in position 77 on the GOG "popular" list, behind the undiscounted Dungeon Keeper 2 and Turok 2: Seeds of Evil.

The game may very well have a long tail in post-release sales, but that tail hasn't shown itself just yet.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Rink » April 1st, 2017, 2:23 am

hmm, well it is one of those games that may attract people that don't follow the game-market that closely, because there wasn't a game like it in a very long time, so I also think it will have a long-tail of post-release sales. Maybe the enhanced edition of "P:T" will boost Torments:ToN sales as well. I don't really think Beamdog will improve P:T, but they cannot really screw it up neither :D
I hope it will, because if sales do not pick up it is unlikely others will try to make games like P:T or T:ToN.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Atsuico » April 1st, 2017, 5:36 am

kilobug wrote:
March 14th, 2017, 6:15 pm
Not entirely. InXile said several times, and I've no reason to distrust them, that in addition to backer's money, they invested a significant amount (but no idea if that's $1 million, $5 millions or even more) of their own money (mostly from the sales of WL2) into TToN. So if they don't sell much, they will lose money on the game.
When I hear that Brian Fargo didn't get paid, I'll believe they actually lost money on this game :roll:

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by acm » April 2nd, 2017, 7:08 am

I would be very interested in seeing the sales numbers of the console version. Putting an isometric, text-heavy cRPG on a TV screen is one of the silliest things I could imagine in gaming. Thinking that it would be actually a good idea to develop or fund should book a trip out of bizarro-world.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Dork Mage » April 2nd, 2017, 6:51 pm

Console version is Techland's idea. Just saying....

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Rink » April 3rd, 2017, 4:53 am

I agree that the consoleversion is unusual for this type of game and ToN is best served on PC, but if it is worth it depends on the cost of the implementation on the console compared to the expected sales that otherwise wouldn't have happened (some people don't play games on PC). If you can get the money back with a few 1000 in sales, then it is likely to be worth it.
Additionally one has to think about the PR-effect, producing a game for a console means more public exposure for the game and thus for the company.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by acm » April 3rd, 2017, 7:04 am

Dork Mage wrote:
April 2nd, 2017, 6:51 pm
Console version is Techland's idea. Just saying....
Yes, I knew it before. But someone has to agree to do it. Maybe it's good money, but from what I read it is a nightmare to develop and support consoles. At least at Introversion Software (Prison Architect) they often mention that they nearly crashed their company with it. It's a double edged sword to agree. The game design must also be changed accordingly, interface must be clunkier, texts larger and simpler to read, combat round-based and usable with a few buttons, and it's a nightmare to optimize. Not sure how it went, but my bet is that it turned into a major headache and sucked up resources that could have been used creatively.
Rink wrote:I agree that the consoleversion is unusual for this type of game and ToN is best served on PC, but if it is worth it depends on the cost of the implementation on the console compared to the expected sales that otherwise wouldn't have happened (some people don't play games on PC). If you can get the money back with a few 1000 in sales, then it is likely to be worth it.
Additionally one has to think about the PR-effect, producing a game for a console means more public exposure for the game and thus for the company.
I saw the (found online, so no idea if accurate) sales number for Skyrim, it was like 59% XBOX, 27% PS3, 14% PC, so from a business standpoint I can relate. But the game has to be as good on console as on PC, and this requires a (at least) double effort (or you will see lots of complaints, hurting both PC and console). Do you really want to do that for thousands of sales? I'm sure they were also aiming high there. Personally, for the next Kickstarter I would support I want to see the guarantee that the game is PC only, partly to protect the developers from themselves ;-)

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Rink » April 3rd, 2017, 7:19 am

acm wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 7:04 am
Personally, for the next Kickstarter I would support I want to see the guarantee that the game is PC only, partly to protect the developers from themselves ;-)
I think it is easier to adapt to other plattforms if you know that goal and adapt to it before you start programming.
But yes, maybe you are right. I still trust that developers should know best which way is the most promising to sell their product. Because if they don't know, then who does? :D
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by acm » April 3rd, 2017, 7:57 am

Rink wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 7:19 am
I think it is easier to adapt to other plattforms if you know that goal and adapt to it before you start programming.
But yes, maybe you are right. I still trust that developers should know best which way is the most promising to sell their product. Because if they don't know, then who does? :D
You need to do testing on all platforms, it's work someone has to do continuously; there are probably nice tools for this but it's still overhead. Maybe they predicted large interest, but maybe they just thought that they are "f**ing Triple-A" now and should start doing those console games everyone is talking about.

My dream for a Kickstarter project would be that the developer needs zero sales afterwards to break even, and put everything into their vision of a (maybe very niche) game. Additional sales are just a bonus but not the main goal (may happen "accidentally" of course when the game is great). But then the funding goal will start to look quite scary and put people off.

A game that runs on both PC and console is for me a strictly inferior game than a specialized one, and a broadly appealing game tend to get diluted and compromised. Maybe it's just my prejudice, but it's much harder to nail something in several contradicting dimensions.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Dork Mage » April 3rd, 2017, 3:36 pm

acm wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 7:04 am
Not sure how it went, but my bet is that it turned into a major headache and sucked up resources that could have been used creatively.
That has been the concern of backers.

InXile did the console version for WL2 (same Unity engine being used for TToN), so they are familiar with porting to consoles. There were complaints about console-ized UI screens during the beta before the console version announcement, so InXile likely was designing with consoles in mind all along.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by acm » April 3rd, 2017, 6:25 pm

Dork Mage wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 3:36 pm
That has been the concern of backers.

InXile did the console version for WL2 (same Unity engine being used for TToN), so they are familiar with porting to consoles. There were complaints about console-ized UI screens during the beta before the console version announcement, so InXile likely was designing with consoles in mind all along.
Yes, the concern shows up from time to time, and the counter-argument that someone else paid for it than comes up doesn't convince me. Bigger projects will get harder to manage, programmers will get more duties, and the game design will have to change.

I think the cRPG crowd especially "don't like" console games, so the core audience will mind this step. But maybe the sales/download figures *edit: of the console version* will prove me wrong.
Last edited by acm on April 3rd, 2017, 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Dork Mage » April 3rd, 2017, 6:38 pm

acm wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 6:25 pm
Yes, the concern shows up from time to time, and the counter-argument that someone else paid for it than comes up doesn't convince me.
Agreed, the "PC" developers have to spend time supporting the "CONSOLE" developers (or they are one and the same).

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by kilobug » April 4th, 2017, 1:21 am

acm wrote:
April 3rd, 2017, 6:25 pm
Yes, the concern shows up from time to time, and the counter-argument that someone else paid for it than comes up doesn't convince me. Bigger projects will get harder to manage, programmers will get more duties, and the game design will have to change.
I'm highly skeptical about the "game design will have to change", TTON feels a very much PC-oriented game to me (at least compared to Witcher or recent Fallout or ...). For the rest it's partly true, but the reverse is also true : the one paying for console version (Techland) also paid for testing and QA on the console version, which benefited the PC version (since most bugs in a game like that aren't platform-specific) so while in term of planning we probably would have had the game earlier with no console version, in term of quality we would have had more bugs with no console version, so I think overall we are benefiting for it.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by acm » April 5th, 2017, 6:38 am

kilobug wrote:
April 4th, 2017, 1:21 am
I'm highly skeptical about the "game design will have to change", TTON feels a very much PC-oriented game to me (at least compared to Witcher or recent Fallout or ...). For the rest it's partly true, but the reverse is also true : the one paying for console version (Techland) also paid for testing and QA on the console version, which benefited the PC version (since most bugs in a game like that aren't platform-specific) so while in term of planning we probably would have had the game earlier with no console version, in term of quality we would have had more bugs with no console version, so I think overall we are benefiting for it.
Yes, maybe. When Inxile already had experience with WL2 and the Pillars engine supports it then maybe it can be streamlined.

How does the console version play? If I could choose I would still go with PC in any case, this game requires clicking stuff, mouseovers, etc, right? It is not a "natural" console game, and must be adapted to one. But we will never see a comparison, so it's not that important.

How many people bought the console version? I found a number of players on XBox, it was less than 1000, but no guarantees there. I guess Inxile wants to see 10%, 20%, 30% of sales coming from console?

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Dork Mage » April 5th, 2017, 2:51 pm

I believe it is Techland that is interested in console sales (gains the most profit), not InXile.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by acm » April 5th, 2017, 6:50 pm

Dork Mage wrote:
April 5th, 2017, 2:51 pm
I believe it is Techland that is interested in console sales (gains the most profit), not InXile.
If inxile devs have a mercenary attitude and are happy as long they are paid, perhaps. But I think they really want to see it succeeding, with a sizeable chunk in console sales. When the sales are not as expected I'm just saying that *not making* a console version should be considered seriously in the future, even if the overhead seems manageable and you find someone with money to burn and who can be convinced that a console version of a game inspired by an Infinity Engine cRPG is actually a good idea.

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