Sales numbers and chart watching thread

For all Torment discussion that does not fit elsewhere. No spoilers allowed.

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Lix
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Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Lix » March 1st, 2017, 5:24 am

The sales numbers of TToN are really important, both to the future of the franchise and to the future of RPG development in general. As players we'll never have access to the exact sales numbers, but we can look at the game's Steamspy estimates, the concurrent players on Steam, and the weekly console charts to estime how well the game is doing.

I plan to update this thread periodically with sales watching data. For now, all we have are the peak concurrent players on Steam on launch day. That's hard data, but it doesn't translate directly into sales numbers.

Nonetheless, here's how Torment's launch compares to other "big indie" RPGs:

Pillars of Eternity: 31,000 concurrent players on launch day
Shadowrun Returns: 24,000 players
Original Sin: 22,000 players
Wasteland 2: 19,000 players
Tyranny: 13,000 players
Torment: 7,430 players
Shadowrun Hong Kong: 5,980 players

It looks like most people may be hesitant to hop into a story-heavy game on a week day. We'll see what Steamspy says once it updates its numbers over the coming days. We'll also be looking at the various console charts for this week as soon as they're published online.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by SagaDC » March 1st, 2017, 5:49 am

Well, it's also worth keeping in mind that unlike all of those other games, Torment was launched concurrently on multiple platforms. You're only tracking the players who are using Steam, but there are also players who have opted to use Gog or console versions. Unless you're somehow able to get those numbers as well, you're going to be working with very incomplete information.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Serjo » March 1st, 2017, 5:52 am

SagaDC wrote:Well, it's also worth keeping in mind that unlike all of those other games, Torment was launched concurrently on multiple platforms. You're only tracking the players who are using Steam, but there are also players who have opted to use Gog or console versions. Unless you're somehow able to get those numbers as well, you're going to be working with very incomplete information.
Based on my own experience, Torment's console versions could be more popular than the PC versions.

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Jean-Luc
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Jean-Luc » March 2nd, 2017, 4:02 am

I'm a backer but I'm not playing it at release because I want to wait for patches/dlc/enhanced edition before diving in. It's just a sad fact that most games are simply not complete at release and it usually take a year before they're truly finished.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 2nd, 2017, 4:15 am

SagaDC wrote:Well, it's also worth keeping in mind that unlike all of those other games, Torment was launched concurrently on multiple platforms. You're only tracking the players who are using Steam, but there are also players who have opted to use Gog or console versions. Unless you're somehow able to get those numbers as well, you're going to be working with very incomplete information.
I'd imagine that most console profits go to Techland, they didn't pay for console ports out of the goodness of their heart. So the PC sales are not encouraging, although perhaps expect because T:TON was always going to be a niche even among those other Kickstarter RPGs.

Hopefully the sales pick up though, if we are to have some hope of good post-release support, and the game of this type to ever be made again.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Lord of Riva » March 2nd, 2017, 4:24 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
SagaDC wrote:Well, it's also worth keeping in mind that unlike all of those other games, Torment was launched concurrently on multiple platforms. You're only tracking the players who are using Steam, but there are also players who have opted to use Gog or console versions. Unless you're somehow able to get those numbers as well, you're going to be working with very incomplete information.
I'd imagine that most console profits go to Techland, they didn't pay for console ports out of the goodness of their heart. So the PC sales are not encouraging, although perhaps expect because T:TON was always going to be a niche even among those other Kickstarter RPGs.

Hopefully the sales pick up though, if we are to have some hope of good post-release support, and the game of this type to ever be made again.
thats a vicious circle though. The post release support is reliant on sales but those suffer due to a "incomplete" game. A lot of people now wait for a while before purchasing a game and this here isnt a AAA-TItle that sells like hot-cakes just because its from a specific publisher/devloper/franchise.

The issue here is that a company reliant on crowdfunding will see a lot less returns if the backers arent happy with the result.
This is meant generally and not as a critique.

We will see how this turns out with fig as they bait people with money rather than hopes which is a vastly different reason to support something.

Whats important is that companies should not get the wrong message out of this, its not that CRPGs or games like PST cant be successful it is the execution (here with TTON again) that is the reason why the product fails

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 2nd, 2017, 4:37 am

Lord of Riva wrote: thats a vicious circle though. The post release support is reliant on sales but those suffer due to a "incomplete" game. A lot of people now wait for a while before purchasing a game and this here isnt a AAA-TItle that sells like hot-cakes just because its from a specific publisher/devloper/franchise.
Yeah, I agree. All those Enhanced Director's Cut editions being given away for free, a lot of people play the waiting game. Why pay a full price when you can wait a year for -50% sale and get expanded and polished experience?
Lord of Riva wrote: Whats important is that companies should not get the wrong message out of this, its not that CRPGs or games like PST cant be successful it is the execution (here with TTON again) that is the reason why the product fails
I don't know man, it's not like PS:T was some huge commercial success either. It barely made a profit, but that's about it. T:TON has good-to-great reviews, they've had marketing from Techland, it's surprsingly bug free compared to Wasteland, by all accounts it should be selling better. It's too early to declare it a commercial flop, but those numbers are not encouraging.

I think PS:T was always going to be T:TON's biggest enemy. PS:T was a brilliant game but a deeply flawed one as well, and if it came out today it would be slaughtered by reviewers. But all those flaws are forgotten in the depths of time, and people only remember the good parts. I've seen reviewers point out that bad combat or bugs are the issues that keep T:TON from measuring up to the predecessor, and it's just absurd.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Sarakash » March 2nd, 2017, 10:35 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Yeah, I agree. All those Enhanced Director's Cut editions being given away for free, a lot of people play the waiting game. Why pay a full price when you can wait a year for -50% sale and get expanded and polished experience?
This pretty much hits the spot. In fact, some of my friends will wait for the directors cut for this very reason. Not to save the money tho, but because from their point of view, they buy an imcomplete game or even worse: Early Access masked as full release. And this opinion is more common then you might think.

The Wasteland2 release had alot of bugs, especially during the second part of the game. Some questchains where completly broken in my first playthrough. And looking for a solution to sidestep this pretty much spoiled a good portion of the story. In this in context, the whole "cut content discussion" will hurt InXile even more as it would have without the botched WL2 release.

On the other hand, Pillars was quite polished on release. They had a really nasty bug with inventory management among other minor bugs, but you could play through the mainstory and sidequests without any broken chain. And apart from the lackluster Stronghold feature, it felt complete.

I remember a long discussion I had with a friend after he purchased WL2 directors cut. When I told him the difference between vailla and directors cut he actually didn´t believe me at first.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by JoniOdin » March 2nd, 2017, 11:24 am

Jean-Luc wrote:I'm a backer but I'm not playing it at release because I want to wait for patches/dlc/enhanced edition before diving in. It's just a sad fact that most games are simply not complete at release and it usually take a year before they're truly finished.
Yes, same here.
Also, I'm waiting until I get my physical copy I pledged for. Feels more right this way.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Lix » March 2nd, 2017, 11:50 am

It's the second day after launch, and Torment has fallen out of the Steam top 10, the twenty "most helpful" Steam reviews are all negative, and Colin is imploring fans to post positive reviews on Steam and GOG: https://twitter.com/ColinMcComb/status/ ... 2084017152

It's still too early to say anything concrete about sales numbers, but there are mounting signs that the game may be in trouble.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 2nd, 2017, 12:18 pm

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by ohioastro » March 2nd, 2017, 1:07 pm

I'm completely mystified by the people actively trying to torpedo the game on Steam, etc. The original sold poorly, and if they think that they're going to get anyone to try again if they deep-six this game they're quite deluded. I really like it, to be honest, but I didn't obsess about it during development, didn't play the beta, and just backed it knowing that it was my cup of tea.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by SagaDC » March 2nd, 2017, 2:56 pm

Lix wrote:It's the second day after launch, and Torment has fallen out of the Steam top 10, the twenty "most helpful" Steam reviews are all negative, and Colin is imploring fans to post positive reviews on Steam and GOG
Eh, reviews on Steam are pretty consistently 77.75% positive in Torment's favor. So slightly more than three out of every four people are enjoying the game enough to recommend it.

The "most helpful" portion of Steam Reviews are almost meaningless, since review manipulation is practically a time-honored tradition on Steam these days - especially at even the slightest hint of a controversy. It's something that I've seen plenty of times before, especially when it comes to crowdfunded video games.

Some of the negative reviews have valid points, but many of them are just complaints about what the game could have been rather than what it actually is. That's always a very slippery slope to make your stand on, since literally any product ever released "could have been better".

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by waltc » March 2nd, 2017, 3:26 pm

Lix wrote: Nonetheless, here's how Torment's launch compares to other "big indie" RPGs:

Pillars of Eternity: 31,000 concurrent players on launch day
Shadowrun Returns: 24,000 players
Original Sin: 22,000 players
Wasteland 2: 19,000 players
Tyranny: 13,000 players
Torment: 7,430 players
Shadowrun Hong Kong: 5,980 players

It looks like most people may be hesitant to hop into a story-heavy game on a week day. We'll see what Steamspy says once it updates its numbers over the coming days. We'll also be looking at the various console charts for this week as soon as they're published online.
Most RPGs are single-player games--so you won't see the bulk of the people playing reflected in multiplayer on-line figures (I have no desire to play the game online.) Second, probably most important, Torment Tides had 95,000 backers, most of whom will translate directly into players. Generally, it's not a good idea to guess at single-player RPG sales based on multiplayer on-line numbers, as they surely will always be far lower than sales...;) Played all of those games myself--except for the Shadowrun games & Tyranny--and played all of them off-line.
Last edited by waltc on March 2nd, 2017, 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by waltc » March 2nd, 2017, 3:29 pm

JoniOdin wrote:
Jean-Luc wrote:I'm a backer but I'm not playing it at release because I want to wait for patches/dlc/enhanced edition before diving in. It's just a sad fact that most games are simply not complete at release and it usually take a year before they're truly finished.
Yes, same here.
Also, I'm waiting until I get my physical copy I pledged for. Feels more right this way.
It's not "more right"....it is "exactly the same right" because the files are identical, and the game cares not whether you install it from disk or download it.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by waltc » March 2nd, 2017, 3:32 pm

Jean-Luc wrote:I'm a backer but I'm not playing it at release because I want to wait for patches/dlc/enhanced edition before diving in. It's just a sad fact that most games are simply not complete at release and it usually take a year before they're truly finished.
Your choice but as most backers have waited *years* I doubt they'll have a problem digging in right away...;)

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by waltc » March 2nd, 2017, 3:41 pm

ohioastro wrote:I'm completely mystified by the people actively trying to torpedo the game on Steam, etc. The original sold poorly, and if they think that they're going to get anyone to try again if they deep-six this game they're quite deluded. I really like it, to be honest, but I didn't obsess about it during development, didn't play the beta, and just backed it knowing that it was my cup of tea.
Most of the negative reviews I've read come from people who knew nothing about the original game and thought this game would be an ARPG, or a FPS, or just about anything other than what it is. In a sense, really, those folks don't even count. It's exactly what I thought it would be--but I bought Planescape when it was new...and actually played it through about a year after I bought it (it was strange at first, but once I got into it I couldn't put it down.) I would imagine that Planescape, with the resolution mods and other mods, sells much better today than it did then. It was a sort of a "sleeper" game because it was very off-beat when introduced, but the game is so good and has so much depth that it is still bringing in the dough almost two decades later...! Now *that's* a game...;)

I'm very pleased with Tides right now, and hope they'll improve on it--it's too good to waste--a nice expansion to fill in some gaps and some work on the graphics would be very nice--although the graphics are far better than Planescape's, of course!

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 2nd, 2017, 4:10 pm

SagaDC wrote: Eh, reviews on Steam are pretty consistently 77.75% positive in Torment's favor. So slightly more than three out of every four people are enjoying the game enough to recommend it.

The "most helpful" portion of Steam Reviews are almost meaningless, since review manipulation is practically a time-honored tradition on Steam these days - especially at even the slightest hint of a controversy. It's something that I've seen plenty of times before, especially when it comes to crowdfunded video games.

Some of the negative reviews have valid points, but many of them are just complaints about what the game could have been rather than what it actually is. That's always a very slippery slope to make your stand on, since literally any product ever released "could have been better".
77% is worse than Wasteland, and that was barely playable on launch and LA area stayed broken for 3 months. Torment is actually quite polished, the reviews were good-to-great, they had extra marketing from Techland, they had more backers to spread the word, it's a successor to much more popular franchise. It should be doing a lot better and you know it. And InXile know it too, or they wouldn't be out on Twitter asking for positive reviews and Sear wouldn't spend entire day doing damage control in the Steam comments.

So can we drop the pretense how having entire front page full of negative reviews has no impact.

And yes, I've skimmed briefly through those top 20 negative reviews and some of them make good points, but most of them are utter nonsense. Apparently half of game has been cut, entire core of game has been removed, there was some conspiracy to make the game turn-based, money was spent on console development, and more of completely inane drivel like this.

But these reviewers are getting their narrative from somewhere, and that's InXile's own damn fault. They've been shit at communicating since WL2, and it only got worse. Review manipulation in time of controversy is of course a thing, but again, that's developer's job to get control of the messaging rather than sit on their ass, and then act surprised and beg for positive scores on Twitter.

It's an embarrassment that they still don't have proper community manager. They were supposedly oh so sorry about "forgetting" about cut companions and were supposed to fix their approach, but evidently nothing was done.

If this game flops commercially it's gonna be a problem, because I guarantee you they were planning to tunnel the profits into BT4 and WL3. Do you see them making BT4 that they promised, for mere 1.5 million? Not a chance.

I'm pretty happy with T:TON, it has it's issues but it honestly exceeded my expectations so far and I'd rate it a lot higher than WL2. But let's not beat around the bush, the launch is a trainwreck.
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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by Kulin » March 2nd, 2017, 5:10 pm

And yes, I've skimmed briefly through those top 20 negative reviews and some of them make good points, but most of them are utter nonsense. Apparently half of game has been cut, entire core of game has been removed, there was some conspiracy to make the game turn-based, money was spent on console development, and more of completely inane drivel like this.
Why do you think it is insane that console development costs money? Its additional development time. You don't just push a button and get 3 different builts. Even if you have a engine like unity that is capable of delivering a result for different plattforms it never works without problems and adjustments. You also have to hire testers for every plattform and fulfill all those requirements from Microsoft and Sony before you can publish a game. And after all that is done you have to press those Blurays and DVDs. I would not wonder if about 10% of the development money were invested into cross plattform development.

Money that could have been invested into the games depth. Money that was exactly given by their backers for that single reason.

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Re: Sales numbers and chart watching thread

Post by ohioastro » March 2nd, 2017, 5:13 pm

I gave them money to build an enjoyable game that I'm, well, enjoying. Speak for yourself.

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