Some of the joinable factions have been cut

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Serjo
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Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 9th, 2017, 6:53 pm

Here's a developer comment from the file "a2201_jernaugh.conversation":
06904: <Comments>SHOULD NOT PLAY due to factions being cut, this previously led to joining the Jagged Dream faction</Comments>
Unfortunately, "factions being cut" is a pretty vague statement; maybe a developer can clarify how big a portion of the faction system has been cut and how much will still be in the game.

As a reminder, this is what the factions were supposed to be:
Choosing Sides

The factions of the Ninth World aren't simple gangs that hate each other. They each have their own goals, sometimes overlapping, sometimes antagonistic toward each other. In Torment, you'll be able to join at least one faction, maybe more, depending on how you play and whether your goals overlap with theirs.

Some factions may be aligned with the Tides, but not explicitly. The Ninth World is not so simplistic. Further, the factions won't be as single-minded as their philosophies might suggest. A scholar's guild could have sects within it: one that believes in knowledge for all, and another that believes knowledge is too dangerous for any but the elite. Acolytes of a devout order that helps the poor might disagree on whether doling out welfare or teaching life skills is the more effective course of charity. Thus, even within a faction, you might be pressured to support one particular sect or another.

On the other hand, you can stay out of it entirely. Like the other gameplay elements, factions don't force you down a path. They give you choices that matter, and will affect other parts of the game.

https://torment.inxile-entertainment.co ... t/gameplay

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 9th, 2017, 8:20 pm

I've looked around in the game files some more; the December build only has a single joinable faction, and there's a telling developer comment:
<ID>500</ID>
<DefaultText>"I thank you for the information. We will record it. You have fulfilled the terms of the agreement. Do you still wish to join our organization?"</DefaultText>


<Comments>if we add other factions later, node 208 should be used instead</Comments>
<ID>208</ID>
<DefaultText>"I thank you for the information. We will record it. You have fulfilled the terms of the agreement. Do you wish to join our organization? You must renounce all others."</DefaultText>
The December build plays node 500. Is there really only one joinable faction in the game, or did they just not bother to update the text for the beta?
Last edited by Serjo on February 9th, 2017, 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Firkraag » February 9th, 2017, 8:39 pm

Okay, folks, I get, that you're worried, righteous and inquisitive bunch, I really do, but could you please, move your activity into spoilered sections of this forum or at least cover a mined data under spolier banners?

It's okay to ask questions and share the details, but at this point I want to wait and experience the final product "as is", not judge it by what it could've been.

Along with spoiler-ish trailers and this, I don't want Torment to be bisected and put into tiny bottles before the day I could actually play it. Please, knock it off.

Thank you! ;)
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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 9th, 2017, 8:52 pm

I put the quotes in spoiler tags.

Something I noted in another thread: why is there no UI element telling you which factions you're a member of? PST showed the faction logo on your character sheet, informed you about rules and alignment restrictions, etc. etc. TToN shows you nothing, not even a text line like "Member of faction X". Maybe the release version will handle that differently... but wasn't the UI supposed to be final?

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Jernaugh » February 10th, 2017, 1:31 am

Um, is this surprising? They actually say you'll be able to join at least one, maybe more. Clearly there were plans for more, but it is possible they got cut down to the one originally announced as the minimum. This is only disappointing because of a false expectation and the knowledge of what might have been. Or am I missing something here?

And if there is only one, then surely a UI element would be overkill?

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Monara » February 10th, 2017, 2:15 am

Jernaugh wrote:Um, is this surprising? They actually say you'll be able to join at least one, maybe more.
Depending on how you play. Let's not take things out of context to justify this. If there is only ever one faction to join, that quote is a lie.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 10th, 2017, 4:29 am

Jernaugh wrote:And if there is only one, then surely a UI element would be overkill?
Why? You aren't forced to join that faction, and there could theoretically be some reactivity based around your faction membership in the full game. A line like "You are a member of the X" somewhere on the character sheet would seem very appropriate even if there's only a single faction in the game.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Infinitron » February 10th, 2017, 5:01 am

George Ziets hinted already last year that the game's faction aspect had been de-emphasized: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10280
Last edited by Infinitron on February 10th, 2017, 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Jernaugh » February 10th, 2017, 5:06 am

Monara wrote:
Jernaugh wrote:Um, is this surprising? They actually say you'll be able to join at least one, maybe more.
Depending on how you play. Let's not take things out of context to justify this. If there is only ever one faction to join, that quote is a lie.

Gotta be honest, I don't see how that modifier makes the quote a lie. Of course, there might be a grammatical issue here.
"In Torment, you'll be able to join at least one faction, maybe more, depending on how you play...". As I understand it, the comma after "maybe more" indicates that this is a clause that could be left out of the sentence. That implies that "you will be able to join at least one faction depending on how you play". So if you play in a certain way, you might be able to join a faction. This opportunity will exist for at least one faction with an unspecified dependency on how you play.

If you take the clause as important for the sentence (i.e. "you'll be able to join at least one faction, maybe more depending on how you play..."), then you're right, it is incorrect. Because this sentence now implies that your style of play will determine whether you can join more than one faction, which implies that there is a possibility to join more than one faction.

I would tend to assume that your style of play determining whether you can join a faction makes more sense than your style of play determining how many factions you can join, so I think the first interpretation is correct, especially since it gels with my understanding of grammar.

But all this may be beside the point. Again, this is a matter of ideal design visions. It's pretty clear that they wanted more than one faction, true, and it seems right now that this was not achieved. But at the same time, I don't see that as a promise, but a statement of intent. There are many reasons why intent may not always translate into action.
Serjo wrote:Why? You aren't forced to join that faction, and there could theoretically be some reactivity based around your faction membership in the full game. A line like "You are a member of the X" somewhere on the character sheet would seem very appropriate even if there's only a single faction in the game.
Possibly. But this is the kind of thing that could easily be done with an item as well. I'm really not sure a special display is needed if it's a major decision with consequences and there's only yes/no. We don't need a UI element to tell us who we sacrificed on Virmire in Mass Effect, or whether Dak'kon has a chained or a gleaming blade. If there were several options that fulfilled the same "role" and could change over time, then a UI element would make sense, yes. But for one faction? I'm not seeing it.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 10th, 2017, 5:14 am

Infinitron wrote:George Ziets hinted already last year that the game's faction aspect had been de-emphasized: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10280
However, the most interesting part of the interview is literally in the last two minutes, when Shane asks Colin and George what they regret having to cut from the game.

In George's case, it's an entire faction, and he also seems to imply that the game's entire factional aspect won't be receiving as much emphasis as they had originally planned.
It'd be cool if they could clarify that. Quite possibly just GZiets' faction got cut and the rest's the matter of wording.
I reached out to George Ziets regarding factions in Torment and he said they will definitely be talking about it more but for now he doesn't have anything substantial to add.
Could a developer tell us whether that information about factions is still planned to be shared before release?

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 10th, 2017, 5:54 am

Quoting in a more appropriate thread:
anonymous6059 wrote:This is a good indication that some of what you're datamining is extremely dated. Something like The Jagged Dream could of been cut way back in 2014.
I won't post any spoilers here, but there is a fairly substantial amount of information about the Jagged Dream's leadership, membership conditions, surrounding skill checks and interaction options, and the planned faction quest line in the beta files - together with a string of notes that this content won't be playable in the next build, until finally there's a comment that the Jagged Dream has been cut.

It looks like there was only one joinable faction implemented by early 2016, and if they managed to add any more afterwards, this content never made it into the beta files. It's a good topic to ask the developers about.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Luckmann » February 10th, 2017, 7:04 am

With so much core content cut into, it makes me wonder what happened to the funding.

Remember, Tides of Numenera was over-funded by almost 3,3 millions on Kickstarter alone, receiving a whopping 465% of minimum cost.

Yet 3 out of 5 CNPC:s were cut, there appears to only be three truly bare-bones Foci, one major promised location/city was essentially scrapped/"moved", there's serious questions as to whether there's any orchestral soundtrack at all or any actual Stronghold feature, the Codex was completely scrapped, the game was consolized despite promises that such would only be done afterwards, italians got screwed out of localization, and practically all of this was or is being kept secret until after release. And now this.

I can't think of the last time I saw a trainwreck of development this bad. It feels like the game has been through development hell, but is still being pushed out come hell or high water, when it's clear that it needs to go back into the oven and stay there.
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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 10th, 2017, 7:46 am

If you look at the global variables file, you can see how many Factions had had any work done on them when the December build was compiled. The global variables cover every variable that was ever added to the game world, including the bloom and the oasis, but also cut content like companions.

The Factions in the files are:

CultOfTCG (joinable in the beta, but only unlock environmental barks and a store discount) - DendraOHur (not joinable in the beta, half a dozen unique lines of dialogue are left in the files) - JaggedDream (not joinable and confirmed to be cut, but they have the greatest amount of info left in the files, including a comment about their questline) - OrderOfTruth (not joinable in the beta, no dialogues are left in the files)

That doesn't look terribly enouraging, but it's still possible that they're working on the factions right now.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by kaiman » February 10th, 2017, 11:29 am

Firkraag wrote:Okay, folks, I get, that you're worried, righteous and inquisitive bunch, I really do, but could you please, move your activity into spoilered sections of this forum or at least cover a mined data under spolier banners?

It's okay to ask questions and share the details, but at this point I want to wait and experience the final product "as is", not judge it by what it could've been.
My view exactly. Italian translation aside, at this point I do not care which of the originally listed features made it into the final release or not. I'll be happy to get a game of 1.2 million words (which btw. is much more than the devs ever envisioned), and am looking forward to experience what is there!

I would imagine that those things that have been cut have not been the best to begin with. Perhaps they did not tie in well with the overall story arc, perhaps they did nothing to contribute to the underlying philosophical question, perhaps there wasn't enough time to polish and ensure a good enough quality. Whatever the reason, I don't feel I'm deprived of something that should have been in the game, considering that the game as such is still massive! I cannot judge if the game would be a better one with some of that stuff included. Perhaps it would be more diverse, offer more choice or cater to a greater variety of players, but at what expense? First and foremost, the core of the game needs to be sound and enjoyable. If TToN manages to deliver on that, great! In that case, I can live without the fluff. But if it's weak to begin with, no amount of joinable factions, additional companions, crafting, strongholds, oases, codices and orchestral soundtracks will fix the issues in the core gameplay.

Again, communication in these matters sucks, but if I'd have to chose between great communication and a great game ... tough call! Remember, resources at inXile's disposal were not endless, and while $5m+ may sound like a lot, spread over 4 years of development with no small team of internal and external contributors, it only buys so much. And, to be frank, had they more money to spend and could afford another 4 years of development to add all that additional stuff, would it really be worth the wait?

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Luckmann » February 10th, 2017, 11:48 am

Serjo wrote:If you look at the global variables file, you can see how many Factions had had any work done on them when the December build was compiled. The global variables cover every variable that was ever added to the game world, including the bloom and the oasis, but also cut content like companions.

The Factions in the files are:

CultOfTCG (joinable in the beta, but only unlock environmental barks and a store discount) - DendraOHur (not joinable in the beta, half a dozen unique lines of dialogue are left in the files) - JaggedDream (not joinable and confirmed to be cut, but they have the greatest amount of info left in the files, including a comment about their questline) - OrderOfTruth (not joinable in the beta, no dialogues are left in the files)

That doesn't look terribly enouraging, but it's still possible that they're working on the factions right now.
If that's all that was in there a month ago, I can't see how we can expect them to be in by the 28th. If they're doing anything right now, it's bug-fixing and polish, not adding completely new content. And if they're not doing bug-fixing and polish, well, that's also terrible.

I think it's safe to say that there's no meaningful faction system in the game.
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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by anonymous6059 » February 10th, 2017, 2:34 pm

I didn't want to start a thread just to point this out and I didn't see anywhere else that seemed like a better place to stick it.

I noticed the steam achievements are up. They are extremely vague, but maybe that can still help solve some questions. 53 of them exist. One is called "This is my Cult". Showing that joining a cult is at least trophy worthy.
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/272270/achievements

Another one is titled "Love restored" which has me excited. I hope that the game has a love story that exist as a undertone throughout the game. I love steam achievements. I'm really glad to see that they made some. This makes me happy. :D

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Gizmo » February 10th, 2017, 2:43 pm

Has anyone looked, and been able to discern if the requirements for each of those achievements can be met? (Do any require known cut content?)

**I should mention that I usually install an achievement disabler if I know of one for the given game.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by Serjo » February 10th, 2017, 3:26 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:I didn't want to start a thread just to point this out and I didn't see anywhere else that seemed like a better place to stick it.

I noticed the steam achievements are up. They are extremely vague, but maybe that can still help solve some questions. 53 of them exist. One is called "This is my Cult". Showing that joining a cult is at least trophy worthy.
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/272270/achievements

Another one is titled "Love restored" which has me excited. I hope that the game has a love story that exist as a undertone throughout the game. I love steam achievements. I'm really glad to see that they made some. This makes me happy. :D
The Steam achievements are the same as the VERY SPOILERY PS4 trophies, which have full descriptions available. "This is my Cult" is not about joining a faction.

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by anonymous6059 » February 10th, 2017, 4:31 pm

Serjo wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:I didn't want to start a thread just to point this out and I didn't see anywhere else that seemed like a better place to stick it.

I noticed the steam achievements are up. They are extremely vague, but maybe that can still help solve some questions. 53 of them exist. One is called "This is my Cult". Showing that joining a cult is at least trophy worthy.
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/272270/achievements

Another one is titled "Love restored" which has me excited. I hope that the game has a love story that exist as a undertone throughout the game. I love steam achievements. I'm really glad to see that they made some. This makes me happy. :D
The Steam achievements are the same as the VERY SPOILERY PS4 trophies, which have full descriptions available. "This is my Cult" is not about joining a faction.
Well, shit. I'd done thought I found something useful for a change. :roll:
Oh well, I was really hoping that showed some ray of hope. That is really sad. The "This is my Cult" trophy can literally be done in the first 20 minutes of gameplay and that is the only cult related achievement in the game. :cry:

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Re: Some of the joinable factions have been cut

Post by anonymous6059 » February 20th, 2017, 5:22 am

On Facebook they are releasing posters for three cults. So it is very likely the game only has three to choose from. I'd consider that enough evidence to suggest that Factions have in fact been cut.

Almost every feature of the game has been slashed in half. :(

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