Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Pimpollo818 » January 31st, 2017, 8:56 pm

If you were to complete the cut content, would that be in the form of a Director's Cut, or an expansion?

I'd be down to hold off my playthrough for a year if there's a DC coming.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Firkraag » January 31st, 2017, 9:30 pm

Pimpollo818 wrote:If you were to complete the cut content, would that be in the form of a Director's Cut, or an expansion?

I'd be down to hold off my playthrough for a year if there's a DC coming.
I would love to know answer to this question, too. For the same reason. But I have a feeling, that it won't be addressed until after the game's release at the very least.
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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Jozape » January 31st, 2017, 10:05 pm

I have to admit that if I were Italian or paid to play in Italian, I would most probably be angry at this time.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by KorganBloodAxe » January 31st, 2017, 10:34 pm

cryocore wrote:Communicating to backers should be a priority whenever anything significant changes..
Shouldn't you wait and judge the final product? Or is there something else you are still concerned about?
Jozape wrote:I have to admit that if I were Italian or paid to play in Italian, I would most probably be angry at this time.
Disappointed maybe. Surely offering refunds is an adequate response.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Lord of Riva » January 31st, 2017, 10:56 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
cryocore wrote:Communicating to backers should be a priority whenever anything significant changes..
Shouldn't you wait and judge the final product? Or is there something else you are still concerned about?

no that is completely unrelated. i can understand that people want to know if what they wanted will not fulfill the promised features. Waiting until its done and Judging if the product is still good without these features is a different can of worms.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by cryocore » January 31st, 2017, 11:05 pm

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
cryocore wrote:Communicating to backers should be a priority whenever anything significant changes..
Shouldn't you wait and judge the final product? Or is there something else you are still concerned about?
This is not about the quality of the end product. This is about being open and honest with your backers.
If anything significant changes there is an obligation to notify backers of it. The change maybe for good or ill, but it still needs to be communicated.
The concern isn't the change, or the reason for the change. My issue is the lack of respect in ignoring backers that things were being changed, and things were being cut.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by KorganBloodAxe » January 31st, 2017, 11:57 pm

cryocore wrote: My issue is the lack of respect in ignoring backers that things were being changed, and things were being cut.
Fair enough. There are probably quite a few backers (I daresay the majority) who don't put the same onus on being notified of every change but I can understand why it might erk some people. At least they have owned up to their shortcomings.

You are obviously a fan of old school RPG's given the fact that you have backed these games. Don't you think it is still better to suck it in and still support them given that the alternative might eventually lead us back to the situation we were in 5 years ago where this kind of game was no longer being made? Back to the days when we would get our yearly installment of Mass Effect and similar cookie cutter FPS'ers with some "RPG" mechanics thrown in?

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by kilobug » February 1st, 2017, 12:45 am

Pimpollo818 wrote:If you were to complete the cut content, would that be in the form of a Director's Cut, or an expansion?

I'd be down to hold off my playthrough for a year if there's a DC coming.
That will very likely depends on the game success, both with critics/ratings and with number of sales. The bigger the success of the game, the more we can expect in the future.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by kilobug » February 1st, 2017, 12:49 am

Thanks for the explanation and clarifications, inXile. As a software developer myself, I can totally understand.

Assuming TTON is as good as it seems it'll be happy, and as long as you keep making "old-schools" RPGs (ie, not Fallout 3/4 or VR stuff...) you can be assured of my continuous support !

Good luck for the remaining month, which I know will not be quiet, and let's hope the best for future DLC/expansions/Director's Cut/whatever !

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by cryocore » February 1st, 2017, 1:30 am

KorganBloodAxe wrote:
cryocore wrote: My issue is the lack of respect in ignoring backers that things were being changed, and things were being cut.
Fair enough. There are probably quite a few backers (I daresay the majority) who don't put the same onus on being notified of every change but I can understand why it might erk some people. At least they have owned up to their shortcomings.

You are obviously a fan of old school RPG's given the fact that you have backed these games. Don't you think it is still better to suck it in and still support them given that the alternative might eventually lead us back to the situation we were in 5 years ago where this kind of game was no longer being made? Back to the days when we would get our yearly installment of Mass Effect and similar cookie cutter FPS'ers with some "RPG" mechanics thrown in?
In short no. I back projects in-part to be involved in the development process, or more accurately being able to follow the process in more detail.
I work in the industry both in development and as a commentator. The nuts and bolts of development is something I enjoy being part of. inXile is by far the most lax in providing meaningful updates, or backer information. They are appalling at including important information that is affecting development. They take the money and then mostly ignore the backers.

For this reason I will not back them now, or in the future. If their products are good quality (and I have no reason to doubt they will be) then I will buy a copy off the shelf. I may even pick up a Collectors Edition if one should be available. I however refuse to give them my money based on a promise, and the idea of being part of a community included in the development journey. Obsidian, Harebrained Schemes, and Larian (among others) however will continue to have my support. Hell even Beamdog will get some backer funds from me should they decide to go that route.

My experience with inXile has been that Brian just want the money. After he has it he does not give a shit. The last actual update for Bards Tale was 5 months ago for instance.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Godfather101 » February 1st, 2017, 4:49 am

Colin McComb wrote:(...)
Thanks for your long post, your hard work and some insights to the working schedule for you inxiles.

Do i like that things got cut?
No.
Would be better to know this earlier?
Of course.

But i can understand why things went as they went, so when you are making an interesting game i'll still back you.
As long as there is a paypal backing possibility i still trust Inxile.
Thanks.

Edit:
Oh, and i REALLY would like to read those drunken McComb updates. :mrgreen:
Perhaps next time just post it here in the forums. ^^

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by kaiman » February 1st, 2017, 5:44 am

Colin McComb wrote:You totally have a right to be disappointed with inXile's communication.
Nice to hear that the message got through. While I do understand how the lack of communication came about, I think open and honest communication is one of the pillars of crowdfunding. In my own, limited experience, a number of projects got that right, a really small number went completely overboard with the updates (though ignoring them is simple), while the rest still needs to learn.

In case of inXile, I do have high hopes that the communication strategy for BTIV is updated accordingly, and am looking forward to some long overdue news on that one :-). I'll certainly consider backing future projects, provided they are games I'd enjoy playing. (I'm totally not into the whole near-future nuclear post-apocalypse genre, so I had to pass on Wasteland).

I am also under the impression that TToN will turn out great, cuts and changes notwithstanding. And in the end, it's the result that really counts. However, one should keep in mind that while different roads may lead to the same result, each one will come with a legacy of its own ;-).

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Skyleaf » February 1st, 2017, 7:33 am

I have backed W2 & T:ToN. I'm not backing W3 because I have family now and donating with US dollars is too much, but it's a definite one day purchase once it's on Steam thanks to regional pricing. I remain a loyal customer to InXile as you guys are probably one of a very few number of developers who cares and knows how to churn out quality RPGs.

Nonetheless I must admit for the first time to be disappointed in you guys. All those content cuts mean nothing to me because if the game is enjoyable, then I'll forget there ever was a problem. But you have to realize that you are throwing your Italian fans under the bus on that promise that you broke. It's not about the money. These guys along with the rest of us, waited for years, anticipating and cheering you on. You cannot and must not ever sacrifice their loyalty just because you feel like they represent an insignificant number. It makes me think, what if I'm a minority which you find too troublesome to support? I can be thinking, yup, I'll most likely be ditched too.

I've had a great relationship with your customer service whenever I ran into problems with Wasteland 2. My feeling is that you care. So please, do not back yourselves into a corner like this again. In my opinion, this is the kind of mistake that is more often than not, unfixable.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Jozape » February 1st, 2017, 1:55 pm

Skyleaf wrote:I have backed W2 & T:ToN. I'm not backing W3 because I have family now and donating with US dollars is too much, but it's a definite one day purchase once it's on Steam thanks to regional pricing. I remain a loyal customer to InXile as you guys are probably one of a very few number of developers who cares and knows how to churn out quality RPGs.

Nonetheless I must admit for the first time to be disappointed in you guys. All those content cuts mean nothing to me because if the game is enjoyable, then I'll forget there ever was a problem. But you have to realize that you are throwing your Italian fans under the bus on that promise that you broke. It's not about the money. These guys along with the rest of us, waited for years, anticipating and cheering you on. You cannot and must not ever sacrifice their loyalty just because you feel like they represent an insignificant number. It makes me think, what if I'm a minority which you find too troublesome to support? I can be thinking, yup, I'll most likely be ditched too.

I've had a great relationship with your customer service whenever I ran into problems with Wasteland 2. My feeling is that you care. So please, do not back yourselves into a corner like this again. In my opinion, this is the kind of mistake that is more often than not, unfixable.
My thoughts are very similar. I think that expecting the game to be exactly as described during the crowd-funding campaign is crazy or at minimum ignorant. But dropping the Italian language isn't about changing the game, it's about dropping accessibility that was promised to a portion of your backers that helped fund your game in the first place. inXile really needs to find a way to bring that accessibility to the Italian backers, even if it's post-release, and even if they never offer an Italian translation of their games again.

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by drealmer » February 1st, 2017, 3:06 pm

When I backed the game I did it in the HOPES that they would use the money to THEIR BEST DISCRETION as to what was BEST FOR THE GAME and for what they envisioned because I trust them to have their priorities in order and to do the game justice. There are so many aspects to developing and writing the game that THE most important thing is to create a deep and meaningful artistic experience; a piece of integrity that didn't lose its focus. I think that is what they did was done with all of this in mind and I support their decisions fully. I think it is going to be an incredible game~!

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Woolfe » February 1st, 2017, 6:03 pm

GavinJF wrote:Colin is being SLIGHTLY too modest here. In addition to his duties as a creative lead, he was the lead writer as well. It would not be an exaggeration to say that he spent 2016 so underwater that the Deep Ones rolled over on him in their sleep.
Hire a goddamn community manager.

Yes its less money on the games. But you know what it solves all of these stupid problems before they occur.

Comms was a problem in WL2, its a problem in Torment, based on the crickets in BT4 it's an issue there, It is certainly becoming an issue in WL3.

Hire someone who can help you get your message straight, and who can talk to us when you need someone to run interference because the fuckup fairy has visited.

Yeesh
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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by anonymous6059 » February 1st, 2017, 6:51 pm

Woolfe wrote:
GavinJF wrote:Colin is being SLIGHTLY too modest here. In addition to his duties as a creative lead, he was the lead writer as well. It would not be an exaggeration to say that he spent 2016 so underwater that the Deep Ones rolled over on him in their sleep.
Hire a goddamn community manager.

Yes its less money on the games. But you know what it solves all of these stupid problems before they occur.

Comms was a problem in WL2, its a problem in Torment, based on the crickets in BT4 it's an issue there, It is certainly becoming an issue in WL3.

Hire someone who can help you get your message straight, and who can talk to us when you need someone to run interference because the fuckup fairy has visited.

Yeesh
What I wonder is: Isn't this exactly the kind of stuff that a "Publisher" is good for? Doesn't this sort of thing highlight exactly why the traditional way of making videogames might be better? It seems like most of the issues that have arisen stem directly from the method used for development. Maybe the crowdfunding idea is a broken one. :(

I mean in the end they got a Publisher anyway. So I guess that proves that it just doesn't work right?

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Woolfe » February 1st, 2017, 8:29 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:
Woolfe wrote:
GavinJF wrote:Colin is being SLIGHTLY too modest here. In addition to his duties as a creative lead, he was the lead writer as well. It would not be an exaggeration to say that he spent 2016 so underwater that the Deep Ones rolled over on him in their sleep.
Hire a goddamn community manager.

Yes its less money on the games. But you know what it solves all of these stupid problems before they occur.

Comms was a problem in WL2, its a problem in Torment, based on the crickets in BT4 it's an issue there, It is certainly becoming an issue in WL3.

Hire someone who can help you get your message straight, and who can talk to us when you need someone to run interference because the fuckup fairy has visited.

Yeesh
What I wonder is: Isn't this exactly the kind of stuff that a "Publisher" is good for? Doesn't this sort of thing highlight exactly why the traditional way of making videogames might be better? It seems like most of the issues that have arisen stem directly from the method used for development. Maybe the crowdfunding idea is a broken one. :(

I mean in the end they got a Publisher anyway. So I guess that proves that it just doesn't work right?
No they got a distributer, and they are using their channels. Core game and programming is still in the Developer house.
Which means with the Bill coming from internal/backers, they are not beholden to the publisher's whims.

BUT as I and others have pointed out, as much as publishers that are too big are a pain in the arse(See EA etc), they do provide some good things. Like project oversight and Community management and Marketing. All these things went to the publishers, because generally Devs don't want to do them, they want to make games. But if you are going to eschew the publisher for everything but the distribution, then you need to have people doing those jobs, because they ARE important.

The Problem with the "Traditional" way was that Publisher's made lots of money. They "invested" the money into the Dev Studios. Dev Studio's were then beholden to the publisher to be able to produce anything, which meant that it was no longer the devs producing it, but rather the publisher. As Publisher's got bigger, the devs became less important. Which mean they started to run roughshod over the Devs. Market share and DRM and exclusivity became the important things, instead of the game itself.
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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Serjo » February 1st, 2017, 8:53 pm

Woolfe wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:I mean in the end they got a Publisher anyway. So I guess that proves that it just doesn't work right?
No they got a distributer, and they are using their channels. Core game and programming is still in the Developer house.
Which means with the Bill coming from internal/backers, they are not beholden to the publisher's whims.

BUT as I and others have pointed out, as much as publishers that are too big are a pain in the arse(See EA etc), they do provide some good things. Like project oversight and Community management and Marketing. All these things went to the publishers, because generally Devs don't want to do them, they want to make games. But if you are going to eschew the publisher for everything but the distribution, then you need to have people doing those jobs, because they ARE important.
Techland handles Torment's publishing, including translation work and marketing for the game. Deep Silver is Torment's European distributor.

And Techland does have a community manager on the project - his name is "P.J" and he's posted on rpg.net:

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?79 ... f-Numenera

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Re: Colin McComb apologizes for missed stretch goals - "We should have communicated the cuts earlier."

Post by Woolfe » February 1st, 2017, 9:13 pm

Serjo wrote:
Woolfe wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:I mean in the end they got a Publisher anyway. So I guess that proves that it just doesn't work right?
No they got a distributer, and they are using their channels. Core game and programming is still in the Developer house.
Which means with the Bill coming from internal/backers, they are not beholden to the publisher's whims.

BUT as I and others have pointed out, as much as publishers that are too big are a pain in the arse(See EA etc), they do provide some good things. Like project oversight and Community management and Marketing. All these things went to the publishers, because generally Devs don't want to do them, they want to make games. But if you are going to eschew the publisher for everything but the distribution, then you need to have people doing those jobs, because they ARE important.
Techland handles Torment's publishing, including translation work and marketing for the game. Deep Silver is Torment's European distributor.

And Techland does have a community manager on the project - his name is "P.J" and he's posted on rpg.net:

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?79 ... f-Numenera
Fair enough. My mistake, I was conflating my publishing and distribution tasks. Either way not that big of a change. Techland are handling marketing, translation and porting, both things that are traditional publisher tasks, and don't need to be done at a developer level. Distribution is usually handled by the publisher as well, but in this case they have separated.
But yeah. Publisher not Distributer. My point is still the same Core game and programming in Dev house, etc etc.
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