The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Infinitron » January 28th, 2017, 1:35 pm

Lix wrote:At least one Gamergate-affliated website has been reporting on the stretch goals, with the result that this concern is now being framed as a "Gamergate vs. liberal developers" issue (see here)

I want to stress that I and many other posters in the inXile forums are just interested in answers about the state of a crowfunded project and have no political axe to grind.
Oh plz

For the record, although certain employees of inXile have been mocked for their politics on the Codex, Fairfax and I haven't brought up politics in context of this particular matter at all.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by sear » January 28th, 2017, 2:48 pm

Hey everyone, thanks for sharing your thoughts. However, you don't need to be too concerned. You've seen many of our stretch goals so far, and others, like the Ascension, the Labyrinth and its added elements, expanded epilogues, deeper companions, etc. will show up too.

The main one that I haven't seen mentioned, but should address, is crafting. During development, it became very clear that a traditional crafting system wasn't meshing. We had some early design done, but everything ended up feeling like an MMO-style system, and that just didn't fit Torment's gameplay. Instead, we repurposed those resources, adding significantly more and better Cyphers and Artifacts to the game. We also added some elements that are thematically in line with crafting, like surgical procedures, companion armor upgrades, and essences.

I think what this helps illustrate is that game development is never a straight line to the end. Building an RPG this big is a huge endeavor on both creative and technical levels. This sometimes means ideas don't work out the way we expected, and sometimes new ideas will appear and be so compelling we can't help but add them. When content changes, that doesn't mean we're just yanking it out and tossing it on the floor - in all cases it means that we're using those same efforts to improve other parts of the game, or adding brand-new things entirely.

Our focus with Torment has always been on quality, and we know we'd be doing you guys a disservice if it was any other way.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Serjo » January 28th, 2017, 2:51 pm

sear wrote:The main one that I haven't seen mentioned, but should address, is crafting. During development, it became very clear that a traditional crafting system wasn't meshing. We had some early design done, but everything ended up feeling like an MMO-style system, and that just didn't fit Torment's gameplay. Instead, we repurposed those resources, adding significantly more and better Cyphers and Artifacts to the game. We also added some elements that are thematically in line with crafting, like surgical procedures, companion armor upgrades, and essences.
For the sake of clarity, here's the wording of the stretch goal:
Crafting Numenera: The numenera may be beyond our understanding, but they aren’t beyond our use. This Stretch Goal allows you to learn the tricks to combining the numenera into your own custom cyphers and artifacts. This would not be a rote crafting system, but one that includes some puzzle-solving elements (though not what you’d call a mini-game) and that is tied into the world and narrative. This is yet another idea we started to explore early on for the game, but that felt out of scope for our original budget. But at this Stretch Goal, we can confidently commit to restoring this aspect of our design vision as well.
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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by anonymous6059 » January 28th, 2017, 3:29 pm

sear wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for sharing your thoughts. However, you don't need to be too concerned. You've seen many of our stretch goals so far, and others, like the Ascension, the Labyrinth and its added elements, expanded epilogues, deeper companions, etc. will show up too.

The main one that I haven't seen mentioned, but should address, is crafting. During development, it became very clear that a traditional crafting system wasn't meshing. We had some early design done, but everything ended up feeling like an MMO-style system, and that just didn't fit Torment's gameplay. Instead, we repurposed those resources, adding significantly more and better Cyphers and Artifacts to the game. We also added some elements that are thematically in line with crafting, like surgical procedures, companion armor upgrades, and essences.

I think what this helps illustrate is that game development is never a straight line to the end. Building an RPG this big is a huge endeavor on both creative and technical levels. This sometimes means ideas don't work out the way we expected, and sometimes new ideas will appear and be so compelling we can't help but add them. When content changes, that doesn't mean we're just yanking it out and tossing it on the floor - in all cases it means that we're using those same efforts to improve other parts of the game, or adding brand-new things entirely.

Our focus with Torment has always been on quality, and we know we'd be doing you guys a disservice if it was any other way.
I'm fine with this and I'm just glad to see that you're taking the time to answer most of the questions that have been building up on the forum. Things were starting to get pretty ugly around here.

Will you please consider restating all of these answers in one place, possibly an update? I really would feel a lot better about the transparency if you'd send out emails letting everyone know about the changes before the game releases. This is just my suggestion, but I think it would really show that Inxile isn't trying to hide anything. It would also help out the 90% of backers who most likely never visit this forum.

Either way I really appreciate you answering so many of our questions. :D

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Firkraag » January 28th, 2017, 3:52 pm

sear wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for sharing your thoughts. However, you don't need to be too concerned. You've seen many of our stretch goals so far, and others, like the Ascension, the Labyrinth and its added elements, expanded epilogues, deeper companions, etc. will show up too.

The main one that I haven't seen mentioned, but should address, is crafting. During development, it became very clear that a traditional crafting system wasn't meshing. We had some early design done, but everything ended up feeling like an MMO-style system, and that just didn't fit Torment's gameplay. Instead, we repurposed those resources, adding significantly more and better Cyphers and Artifacts to the game. We also added some elements that are thematically in line with crafting, like surgical procedures, companion armor upgrades, and essences.

I think what this helps illustrate is that game development is never a straight line to the end. Building an RPG this big is a huge endeavor on both creative and technical levels. This sometimes means ideas don't work out the way we expected, and sometimes new ideas will appear and be so compelling we can't help but add them. When content changes, that doesn't mean we're just yanking it out and tossing it on the floor - in all cases it means that we're using those same efforts to improve other parts of the game, or adding brand-new things entirely.

Our focus with Torment has always been on quality, and we know we'd be doing you guys a disservice if it was any other way.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by TT1 » January 28th, 2017, 7:12 pm

Just one question: when were you planning to let the backers know?

It's a month before the game is released and this is the first time I'm reading about the cut content.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Grotesque » January 29th, 2017, 4:55 am

TT1 wrote:Just one question: when were you planning to let the backers know?

It's a month before the game is released and this is the first time I'm reading about the cut content.
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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by D-D » January 29th, 2017, 7:24 am

Read in neogaf thread that inXile have to make cuts because theyve run out of money. Is that confirmed as true?

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by anonymous6059 » January 29th, 2017, 7:32 am

D-D wrote:Read in the neogaf thread that inXile`had to make cuts because theyve run out of money. Is that confirmed as true?
That really isn't possible. More like they misappropriated funds if anything.
1. They finished a Wasteland 2 Director's Cut
2. They build an entire second team for Bard's Tale 4
I don't see how you could do both of those things if you were broke.

This is me speculating:
I think they spent the vast majority of their time on the Story. If you look at the game's lore it is incredible. They managed to write a entire mythos for the game. The Game basically has a story inside a story inside a story. It must of taken years just to get all that done. Problem was by the time they did get it done they were way behind schedule. Most of 2015-2016 was spent playing catch-up. It isn't that they couldn't of found the money. It is that they just couldn't keep delaying the game. It had been delayed for years already. So they cut some corners and got some help from a Publisher. They invested too much time into the story and not enough into other areas of development. That is something that I can accept. TToN's Story is incredible.

I seriously doubt Inxile is broke.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by D-D » January 29th, 2017, 7:37 am

22000 hits on neogaf... hundreds of posts on reddit... no backer update... :evil:

Most italian backers still don't know their version is gone...
anonymous6059 wrote:That really isn't possible. More like they misappropriated funds if anything.
1. They finished a Wasteland 2 Director's Cut
2. They build an entire second team for Bard's Tale 4
I don't see how you could do both of those things if you were broke.
Thank you

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Goral » January 29th, 2017, 7:46 am

It's all because of console version, they've wasted money on that and threw out relevant content. What's worse, Torment "reviews" aren't too good so far: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.ph ... st-4911424

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Serjo » January 29th, 2017, 8:27 am

We got linked by PCGamesN!

You all be on your best behavior now...

InXile confirm that certain Torment: Tides of Numenera stretch goals have been cut

In a post on r/Games, Reddit user SnakesPaw has compiled a series of posts from both the InXile and RPG Codex forums which confirm that a number of stretch goals for Torment: Tides of Numenera have been cut from the final release. This includes two companions, the crafting system along with the game’s Italian localisation.

The money raised from the Tides of Numenera Kickstarter was supposed to guarantee nine unique companions for the player to recruit, which included a companion called the Toy, a 'living ball of goo' who was added to the game at the $2 million mark, along with someone called Riastrad. When a trophy list for Tides of Numenera leaked online, players started to question whether these companions would feature in the full game, as they did not appear in the list unlike other announced companions. After multiple threads and questions via the Tides of Numenera forums, line producer at InXile Entertainment Eric Schwarz eventually released a statement confirming that “ the companion roster has been slightly reduced from [the] initial plans” of the Kickstarter.

Schwarz’ reasoning for the cut companions was to ensure that no companions were left “feeling shallow, with storylines that felt incomplete,” so they were scrapped in order to allow for more work on the pre-existing ones. The other main point of contention was the second city called Oasis, which had appeared in previous promotional material but seemed to absent from leaked beta files and the aforementioned trophy list. Associate producer Thomas Beekers replied that “the Oasis ended up taking on a smaller role, but you will still be able to visit it during the game,” acting more like a smaller settlement rather than the larger city as initially promised.

As a result of these announced pieces of cut content, users on the InXile forums naturally asked for a full list of the scrapped features, so backers can know exactly what will be missing from the full game. Schwarz responded again on January 28, hoping to quiet fan concerns by confirming that backers have “seen many of our stretch goals so far” and that promised goals like “the Ascension, the Labyrinth and its added elements, expanded epilogues, deeper companions” will feature in the final game.

However, one element that has definitely been cut is the crafting system, as “a traditional crafting system wasn't meshing” with the design of the game. According to Schwarz, “everything ended up feeling like an MMO-style system, and that just didn't fit Torment's gameplay,” so the crafting assets have since been repurposed for “better Cyphers and Artifacts”, as well as companion armour upgrades and surgical procedures.

There is also bad news for Italian fans, as the Italian localisation of Tides of Numenera has been cancelled, despite the Kickstarter initially promising it alongside localisations in French, German, Spanish and Russian. In support tickets responding to Italian customers, InXile stated that “the costs for Italian localization would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and our stats and sales of prior RPGs showed the number of Italian backers and sales we could look forward to were too low to support those efforts. Rather than attempt a low-quality localization that would not do justice to the game or satisfy our fans, we ultimately made the difficult decision to not do an Italian version.” As such, Italian backers can now request a refund of their money by contacting the InXile support team.
http://www.pcgamesn.com/torment-tides-o ... ut-content

It doesn't look like PCGamesN was able to get in touch with inXile directly, so this is only a summary of the community posts.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Serjo » January 31st, 2017, 9:32 am

Monte Cook's novella "Palimpsest" has been released to backers according to this post on Reddit:
I noticed this yesterday in my rewards section. I think it's odd there was no announcement about this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Torment/commen ... _released/

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Serjo » January 31st, 2017, 5:26 pm

Now on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/in ... ts/1770943

No new information about any other cut stretch goals, so I guess the live orchestral soundtrack is still planned to be in the game... right?

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by anonymous6059 » January 31st, 2017, 7:06 pm

Serjo wrote:Monte Cook's novella "Palimpsest" has been released to backers according to this post on Reddit:
I noticed this yesterday in my rewards section. I think it's odd there was no announcement about this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Torment/commen ... _released/
I'm really excited to read this one. Sadly, I'm a little busy at the moment. :(
I just hope it ties into the story somehow and isn't completely separate. Would suck if Monte couldn't take the time to work with Inxile and add even more depth to the game. From the way it looks, this novella is a stand alone with nothing to do with Greater Garravia or The Changing God. :x

If anyone knows different let me know please.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Au_I » February 4th, 2017, 4:31 pm

Au_I wrote:
Grotesque wrote:- Mark Morgan live orchestra music
We contacted Morgan about the soundtrack yesterday. If he answers, we'll inform you.
No good news, sorry :(

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Luckmann » February 6th, 2017, 3:54 am

I honestly couldn't care less about the cut Crafting System, since I cannot envision how it would've worked well in a game like this to begin with, and assuming they're truthful about the Oasis major city (which, if Pillars of Eternity is any indication, a game which also had "2nd major city" as a stretch goal once, there's no reason to believe) we're still getting a 2nd major city. So I can live with those.

In fact, promising a crafting system was insane from the beginning, and I said so back then already. It should never have been on the table. It's actually one of the things that made me hesitant to back the game.

However, moving the Voluminous Codex out of the game and cutting a third of an already insanely limited number of CNPC:s is pretty crazy.

The Voluminous Codex is something that can't really be recreated in a good way outside of the game - you'll just get handed a text document, rather than to have a codex of information available in-game, and you'll actually have to tab out of the game, jerking you out of what is supposed to be an engrossing, immersive experience, to go searching for terms in a separate document.

And keeping in mind that two CNPC:s are actually mutually exclusive (Aligern/Callistege), we've basically been reduced from 8/9 CNPC:s to 5/6. That's an absolutely stunning cut - and only one out of those 6 are a Glaive. I want to stress that 4 CNPC:s were slated to be in the game from the get-go. 5 were added as stretch-goals. Essentially, what this means, is that 3 out of 5 added CNPC:s were cut. 60% of stretchgoal CNPC:s were slashed, without any communication!

The customization of your companions is also more or less zero. You can't change most of their equipment, and they're nonsensically locked into using very specific things. It was similar in Planescape: Torment, but at least in PS:T, there was a rationale; the physique of your companions were extremely diverse and mutually exclusive, such as Ignus being on fire, Morte being a floating skull, and Vhailor literally being his own armour.

But the worst thing is really how they handled it. They had known this for years, yet chose to say nothing. This is especially terrible because it shows such egregious hypocrisy, because inXile has harped on and on about keeping in touch with fans and having an open process. Only after suspicious fans revealed it, less than a month before release, did all of this come to light, and with their back against the wall, "apologized".

And from a personal standpoint, I couldn't possibly care less, but it's bordering on straight-up fraud to tell Italians & Spaniards that they're getting translations, and then cut it without saying anything whatsoever. I realize that "Kickstarter is an investment, not a purchase", and I agree - people didn't "pay" for this, people certainly aren't "entitled" to it. But it shows a tremendous lack of judgement and poor form to act in this manner, whether you've got your legal bases covered or not. The fact remains that many backed this with the belief that there would be localizations for their languages, and that their pledge went towards making that a reality, no matter the sales viability of their region in terms of post-release sales.

And given how poor the UI is and how it all handles, as well as no control over your CNPC:s outside of combat (they simply follow in a row, and there's no way to position whatsoever), I have to ask myself just how much the consolization process sucked up of the budget - a process we were promised wouldn't come until after the game was released - but now we're actually set for a simultaneous PC/Console release, meaning that consolization didn't just affect the quality of the game, but money from PC gamers, fans of a PC game classic, investing in a PC game intended (supposedly) for the PC market, absolutely went towards the development of a consolized game, with all that entails in terms of development, testing, inherent limitations and mechanical considerations and options.

We don't give Electronic Arts or Games Workshop passes when they behave in manners befitting snake-oil salesmen, globalist corporations or internationalist organizations; there's no reason why we should give inXile one, as much as I've loved to support inXile in the past. The company is rapidly going down a path which I and many others feel we cannot follow, the Wasteland 3 pitch with it's multiplayer focus and inherently limiting "cinematic" dialogues, and ever-problematic consolization being only the last in a line of worrying signs.

This kind of behaviour and it's consequences shouldn't be disregarded or derided. People have very real reasons to be legitimately upset at inXile, the development of the game, and how the funding of it was handled.
jeska wrote:Is this à common practice to cut funded goals?
It's common, and it's honestly not that strange. The real issue here is the sheer number of cut goals and content, some of it being quite "key" content for many backers (localization, for example; some people only buy games in their native language) all of which inXile kept secret not only until it was less than a month until a release that has been delayed several times, but that was only revealed because fans/players data-mined content and started noticing discrepancies.

Had it not been because the whole thing was discovered, there is no indication that inXile would ever have told anyone before release. And only people that take an active interest specifically in CRPG:s, such as by paying attention to RPGCodex, are even aware of this, because there's been no official wide-scale announcement of any of this information. Imagine Italian fans on the 28th, or Spaniards expecting a non-South-American localization, signing on to download the game on release and finding that they can't play the game.

And I really do mean "can't play the game" here. I personally do not care about localization even a little, but these types of games (if the Early Access game and the fact that it's the "spiritual successor" to Planescape: Torment) have - with some degree of legitimacy - been referred to as "interactive novels" by detractors and critics. It's complicated language, often using words that may not even exist (I remember my young self, me not being a native English speaker, wondering about what "berk" actually meant in PS:T). Not only is the language itself advanced, but you need to have a certain level of language reading comprehension to even understand which words are actually "real" and which are "made up".

There is no way, no how, that inXile didn't know pretty much exactly what things were going to be cut by the end of 2015, at the very least. It's had a long and difficult development cycle, and none of the things that have been cut (that we know of) could possibly have been cut in the last couple of weeks or months. They knew full well that there wasn't going to be some localizations, that The Oasis wasn't going to be a major city, that the in-game Codex wasn't going to make it, that 1/3 of the Companions were going to be cut, and that tons of development money donated by PC gamers and fans of traditional RPG:s were going to be sunk into consolization development a long, long time ago.
Au_I wrote:
Au_I wrote:
Grotesque wrote:- Mark Morgan live orchestra music
We contacted Morgan about the soundtrack yesterday. If he answers, we'll inform you.
No good news, sorry :(
If he's got any kind of engagement with inXile, the contract likely includes a gag order or loyalty clause. This is not to take a dump on inXile or imply that it's shady, by the way - such things are incredibly common and basically a contractual staple. And even if this is not the case, he might just not want to piss on any relationship (current or future) he might (or might not have) with inXile.

So this is not a case of "no news are bad news", but actually just "no news.. are no news". :P
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the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails.”

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Firkraag » February 6th, 2017, 7:14 am

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I can't say I care about crafting in games either. This (scroll down a bit), one the other hand, sounded interesting. The problem, I guess, that at the time they added this stretch goal and at the time of update, inXile still had a picture of much smaller game in their minds. Even if there were a handful of Cyphers and few dozens of potential configurations, I would've been fine with it (in such, 20 hours long game).

The problem, in a hindsight, was that stretch goals were indeed "stretching" the game in many different directions and it wasn't immediately apparent. Too many people already start to work on too many things. Based on decisions early in development, Torment could've been made into bunch of different games.

I wonder now, how much, even unadvertised stuff (if they are smart), is cut from AAA-titles we don't know about, because we weren't supposed to know it could've been there. Every video game development starts with a promise, that not every game or developer can deliver, in the end.
Last edited by Firkraag on February 6th, 2017, 7:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by kilobug » February 6th, 2017, 7:20 am

Luckmann wrote:And keeping in mind that two CNPC:s are actually mutually exclusive (Aligern/Callistege), we've basically been reduced from 8/9 CNPC:s to 5/6. That's an absolutely stunning cut - and only one out of those 6 are a Glaive. I want to stress that 4 CNPC:s were slated to be in the game from the get-go. 5 were added as stretch-goals. Essentially, what this means, is that 3 out of 5 added CNPC:s were cut. 60% of stretchgoal CNPC:s were slashed, without any communication!
While you're right on the lack of communication (but they apologized, and having myself been involved in computer projects, I perfectly can understand the "being underwater" feeling), inXile has been clear since the beginning that in TTON in particular, they would favor quality and depth to quantity. And 6 CNPC is more or less what we had in PsT. And same goes for limited choice of classes, only one thief (Annah) and one priest (Grace). So there is nothing shocking or outrageous for a Torment game there. Sure I would preferred more CNPCs, but I do prefer more depth and reactivity on 6 CNPCs than 8-9 shallow CNPCs.
Luckmann wrote:There is no way, no how, that inXile didn't know pretty much exactly what things were going to be cut by the end of 2015, at the very least.
Very likely not, they probably had some hope to "rescue" part of those in 2016. If you look at previous CRPGs and how many nearly finished quests and area can be restored with a "simple" fan-made patch, cuts at the last minute are pretty much common.

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Re: The stretch-goals that are in and the ones are out?

Post by Firkraag » February 6th, 2017, 7:45 am

kilobug wrote:I perfectly can understand the "being underwater" feeling
Could you explain, please?
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